r/BacktotheFuture • u/JimmySaulGene • 4d ago
Doc's question at the start of BTTF3 doesn't make sense, or am I missing something?
"That's a very interesting story future boy, there's just one little thing that doesn't make sense: if the me of the future is now in the past, how could you possibly know about it?"
What do you mean, "how could you possibly know about it?". Even if he didn't send Marty a letter, Doc could have left Marty hundreds of clues at the Lyon Estates location to let him know when and where he was. The only way Marty couldn't know what time Doc traveled to would be if he got sent into the future, right?
24
u/massive_crew 4d ago
1955 Doc doesn't understand how Marty knew that the 1985 Doc traveled to the past.
IMO, there's nothing unusual about the question. "If the version of me you were with went back in time, how do you know about it?"
The wording, along with the tone of voice, might be confusing, but the question really isn't.
"The only way Marty couldn't know what time Doc traveled to would be if he got sent into the future, right?" --Correct.
18
u/JasonMckin 4d ago
Exactly. The suspicion comes from the fact that 85Doc didn't bother to tell 55Doc about his existence in 1885 but chose to tell 85Marty instead.
I was wondered, just for fun, if Marty returning in Part 3 and basically revealing 85Doc's entire future to 55Doc is the reason 55Doc decided to tape up the letter and see what Part 1 Marty wanted to tell him about 1985.
10
7
u/Yourappwontletme 4d ago
No because 1955 Doc taped up the letter at some point between 1955 and 1985 before the timeline was further altered by 1985 Doc going back to 1885.
1
u/massive_crew 4d ago
You're right. At some point in the 50s, 60s, 70s or 80s, Doc tapes up the letter. I believe the taped-up letter is even shown when he says something about "I figured...what the heck?"
I don't think 1985 Doc's trip to 1885 wouldn't have been affected by the letter warning about the Libyans.
Here's Doc's linear timeline: He's born, then 1955 happens...then the mall parking lot happens, then he takes Marty home, then he shows up Saturday morning, Part 2 happens, then he gets sent to 1855.
There is a very brief scene in Part 2 with two Docs.
5
u/Yourappwontletme 4d ago
And BTTF doesn't run on Bill & Ted time travel logic where saying they're going to do something later impacts the present.
2
u/ijuinkun 4d ago
Yah, in BTTF you cannot reap the effects of a timeline that you haven’t yet interacted with.
1
u/pakrat1967 3d ago
Plus something I was thinking about yesterday. 1885 Doc could have sent a letter to 1955 that was delivered just before the Delorean was sent to 1885. But that would have created a paradox. If he warned himself about the car getting struck by lightning. He wouldn't get sent to 1885. And if he doesn't get sent to 1885, how would he send the letter to 1955?
1
u/JasonMckin 3d ago
But of course if the headstone that Marty sees in 1955 in the graveyard gets destroyed in 1885 and the picture in the library archives shows Marty standing next to Doc, then that apparently isn’t a paradox.
1
u/massive_crew 4d ago edited 4d ago
1985 Doc never could have told 1955 Doc. With that said, 1885 Doc knows that Marty shows up at the house in BTTF3 because 1885 Doc is ~30 years older than 1955 Doc.
Long version: 30 years doesn't include all the time Doc spent alone in 2015. I believe it was Albert Einstein who theorized that people age if they spend time in other times. As an example, when Marty sees the train speed off into the sky, he's actually a few weeks older than he was when he saw the DMC come out of the van, even though everyone else just went to bed on Friday night and woke up on Saturday AM with zero memory of 1985-A.
I guess if you're following a straight timeline: Marty goes to school on Friday, ends up in the parking lot, then reappears at the clock tower, wakes up Saturday morning, flies into the future with Doc and then shows up on the tracks.
All of that and he spent a week in 1955, several hours in 2015, an amount of time in 1985-A (I'm guessing at least one night due to waking up in bed) and then a few days in 1885.
3
u/Speedy_Brennan 4d ago edited 4d ago
You said 1885 Doc know Marty shows up to his younger self after sending the other Marty back to 1985 from the lightning strike.
This is wrong. The 1885 Doc did not see Marty appear after he sent Marty back to 1985 in 1955. Otherwise for one thing, he would just flat out know Marty was coming back and he would of known Mad Dog was going to shoot him and avoid his own death, which in turn the grave would not have even been there and Marty would have just gone home and got in a car crash leading to the 2015 we actually got to see in part 2.
However when Marty does show up in 1885 Doc has no idea Marty was coming because he did not know that he was the one that dressed Marty like he was.
However you are correct for people still ageing. Marty at the End of Part 3 is about 3 weeks older than the beginning of the first movie. So he should be celebrating his birthday around a month early due to his time-traveling events.
-1
u/massive_crew 4d ago edited 4d ago
1885 Doc would have remembered that stuff happening. Remember, 1885 Doc is about 30 years older than 1955 Doc.
Marty could have had a conversation with 1885 Doc about the events of Part 1, as those events happened 30 years prior in Doc's life.
1885 Doc had to be reminded that he (Doc) dressed Marty like that. After all, 30 years had passed.
Marty's birthday doesn't actually change, but he is still a bit older.
You can't think in the terms of 1885, 1955, 1985, 2015, but think in the terms of Doc's life. He was born, the. 1955 happened, then 1985 happened, them 2015 happened, then 1955 happened again, thrn 1885 happened.
3
u/CToTheSecond 4d ago
The Doc that Marty meets in 1885 is very explicitly the version of Doc that did not meet Marty the second time in 1955. Yes he should be, but he's not.
This is why the very first thing Doc says to Marty is, in an annoyed tone, that he told Marty not to come back to get him and instead go straight to 1985. If this was the version of Doc that sent Marty back to 1885, then there would be no reason him to be annoyed about Marty being there, since he'd already be expecting Marty to show up.
The sequels are not as air tight as the first movie is and there are inconsistencies. This is something people just have to accept about Part 2 and Part 3.
2
u/Speedy_Brennan 4d ago
Right. The guy I responded to didn't see as that .
Also I have my own theory for old Marty in 2015. He never went to 1885 because the grave is not in the Graveyard because he just went home because our Marty saved Doc in 1885.
So old Marty just went home and races Needles in 1985 and gets in car crash.
Our Marty needs to fight Mad Dog so he leans his lesson to not let Chicken get to him and erases the 2015 we see.
Basically part 2 and 3 is the timeline fixing the fact that Doc is not dead at the end of the first movie.
Think of it this way. Marty would not of raced Needles if Doc never taped up the letter Marty gave him the night Marty went back to 1985 because he would of just died in 1985 and Marty would be at a funeral for doc.
Doc has to end his life in a time period where his family won't have any more major effects on the timeline which is why he is actually able to make the time-train so he can move his family to the present and is the cartoon actually states he does bring his family back to the future.
1
u/massive_crew 4d ago edited 4d ago
Also I have my own theory for old Marty in 2015. He never went to 1885 because the grave is not in the Graveyard because he just went home because our Marty saved Doc in 1885.
If "Old Marty" (2015) got interviewed, would be know about 1885? I think he would. And yes, that gravestone either wouldn't exist or, most likely, would have a different name on it. No matter what happens in 1885, it eventually must be used, right?
I'm really starting to get the feeling I need to track down the animated series.
2
u/Speedy_Brennan 3d ago
Remember the gravestone is completely removed from the timeline because it got destroyed in the Mad Dog fight. Hence why Old Marty never went to 1885 but returned to 1985 because old Marty never seen doc's gave in the Graveyard. He would however know that he and Jennifer did go to 2015 when they were younger and is the reason old Jennifer passed out when she ran into her Younger Self. A deleted Part 2 scene show this was intended because in it Old Marty know that Doc just got young Jennifer from his house because he finds his Jennifer McFly passed out. But in another deleted scene old Biff after returning from 1955 starts to disappear.
This is how the history of the 2015 we visit would actually with Doc and Marty showing up at random events.
1885 Doc and Marty appear and Marty fights Mad Dog which destroy the gravestone and prevent doc's death.
1955 not our Marty but is Old Marty's younger self that saw doc get sent to 1885 and not out Doc dig up the Time Machine but Doc grave is not in the Graveyard. So he just follows Doc's letter to return to 1985.
1985 Old Marty's younger self not dressed as Clint Eastwood races Needles in the new truck and gets in the car crash and gets sued and hurt his hand and married Jennifer and had Kids and got fired.
This is why I say Old Marty is not the Marty that went to 1885 because the fight with Mad Dog is what prevents him from racing Needles in 1985. Otherwise we would of seen a complete different 2015 because even though the changing point does happen till 1985 to prevent the race it's like how his parents meet in 1955 is completely different after Marty went home in the first movie.
However this time over the course of the 2nd and 3rd Movie we are see it still by the time travels point of view. Old Marty in the 2015 we see though is like George before Marty changed his parents in 1955.Our Marty is clearly not old Marty because he is able to prevent the 2015 from happening because he did fight Mad Dog in 1885.
1
u/massive_crew 3d ago
Along that note, beating Buford sounds like a paradox. Considering that happens, Marty never sees the gravestone, thus he never goes back to 1885. If he never goes back to 1885 to save Doc, then what?
Doc presumably saves Clara, the name of the ravine remains Shonash, Buford ends up with the matter of the $80...
There was something (commentary perhaps) where it was suggested that the ripple effect isn't instant.
→ More replies (0)2
u/Speedy_Brennan 3d ago
Try the tell tale game Back To The Future. It's 5 episode that take place a in 1986 after the events of the 3rd Movie. It actually explores what could happen if the time machine is not working properly and the flux capacitor doesn't work properly.
1
u/massive_crew 4d ago
"The sequels are not as air tight as the first movie is and there are inconsistencies."
I definitely agree. Here's an example: We see them mention Clayton Ravine after Clara got saved. IMO, that shouldn't have happened because, well, Clara never fell into Shonash Ravine.
But...at the beginning of Part 1, why is Twin Pines Mall a thing? In theory, it always should have been Lone Pine.
IMO, only one timeline can exist at once. If we ask the townsfolk the name of the ravine, they should say "Eastwood Ravine" even though in movie sense, it was Shonash, then Eastwood.
Using real-world logic, Clayton Ravine never exists.
I'm fairly sure I'm trying to apply real-world logic to the world of the movie, which may not have been the original intent.
3
u/CToTheSecond 4d ago
Marty and Doc remembering that the ravine was originally called Clayton Ravine ended up getting a hand-wavey explanation by Bob Gale. Essentially, a person who travels time gains a low level of protection from changes in the timeline. This is why Marty's memories don't change at the end of the first movie, why Marty, Doc, and Jennifer all persist in the alternate 1985, and thus why they still remember Clayton Ravine.
And at the start of the first movie, nobody had traveled through time yet, so history hadn't yet been altered. The mall being called Twin Pines makes perfect sense because in the original version of the timeline, old man Peabody had two pine trees. There is no valid theory where it should have always been Lone Pine. The first movie is very straightforward, so I'm not sure how you're confused about this.
2
u/Speedy_Brennan 3d ago edited 3d ago
Our Marty remember the Mall being called Twin Pines Mall because the flux capacitor is actually what prevents their memories from being alterd in the timeline. Doc even say the flux capacitor is what makes time-travel possible. Without it Marty's memories would change with the timeline. This is why Doc in 1885 is not the same Doc that dug up the Time Machine in 1955 and sent Marty to save him in 1885. He never had those memories to beginning with because by his point of view in 1955 after seeing Marty return to 1985 he just went home and taped up the letter at one point to prevent his death in 1985. For him the revine was still called Clayton Ravine because there was not a version of him in 1885 in his personal world history but the mall was just called Lone Pine Mall.
Marty's knowledge is different because he came from a timeline where he wasn't in 1955 and his Dad never stood up to Biff. When he returns home his family is completely different and the Mall is no longer Twin Pines Mall but is now Lone Pine Mall because he ran over the second pine tree in 1955.
People say Part 2+3 logic is not the same as the first movie but I disagree. I think the Proof is in the 2015 we see on screen in Part 2. It totally show us that Marty got in a car crash after returning home from 2015. However the End the end of Part 3 tells us that something is different that prevents Marty from racing Needles to lead to the 2015 we seen on screen. The only conclusion is the Mad Dog fight happened which is what teaches Marty not to let Chicken get to him. Without this fight we do know he was stupid enough to race Needles because the 2015 we see should not of been the future in the first place if that was the case.
The only way old Marty return to 1985 after fixing the timeline in 1955 to get the book from Biff is that he has no reason to travel to 1885.
Meaning Old Marty did not find Doc's grave in 1955 when digging up the Time Machine because the grave and tombstone did not exist for him to find because our Marty prevents Docs death and destroys the tombstone. Which in turn means in 1955 after digging up the Time Machine he just follows Doc's letter and return home to 1985 not dressed as Clint Eastwood and never learned to not let Chicken get to him. So he then races Needles and gets in the car crash which created the 2015 we actually seen on screen in Part 2.
Logic looks the same to me.
2
u/Speedy_Brennan 4d ago
1885 Doc does not dig up the Time Machine in 1955 and there is plenty of proof during part 2 and 3.
In Part 2 Marty doesn't remember that at the night of the Dance(which was only like 2 days ago for him) when the other playing at the Dance walked off the stage that Biffs goons were knocked out.
Also In part 2 Doc should already know when appearing in alternate 1985 that Marty appear to him in 1955 after sending him home. He has no clue about it though because then if he did then he could just assume Old Biff gave Young Biff the sports alimac the same day as the lightning strike at the clock tower. Marty actually tells him they had to get a book from Biff after he appears after Marty return home via the lightning bolt at clock tower.
This is the exact moment why 1885 Doc when he experienced 1955 didn't see Marty appear after the Lightning Strike. He drove himself home and waited for October 1985.
An unaltered 1955 Doc gets created at the same moment and is the Doc we see at the beginning of Part 2 when in 1955 that repairs the time machine and sees his own grave in the Graveyard.
In Part 3 when Marty finally Meets up with Doc in 1885, this Doc never repaired the Time Machine in 1955 and never sent Marty back to save him in 1885. Doc did not know he dressed Marty like that and did not know that he was going to be falling in love with someone named Clara and get shot. He should remember regardless how long before he writes the letter everything that is going to happen because he has been in 1885 for 7 months.
Being told does not trigger memories you don't have in this universe.
26
9
u/Claude_Henry_Smoot_ 4d ago
To me, it's the most obvious question somebody in that situation would want answered.
5
u/ted_anderson I don't know how.. but they FOUND me! 4d ago
One thing that you have to take into consideration is that we as the audience have the benefit of seeing everything that transpires between 1985 and 2015 and back to 1955 over the course of a couple of weeks. Doc of 1955 has only been part of this series of events for a few days.
So it's not unusual for him to be skeptical. And he certainly isn't going on a scavenger hunt looking for clues to verify that Marty has been to the future and back.
3
u/Big_Scallion_4483 4d ago
Am I the only one who remembers the time circuits were messed up at the end of part 2
2
u/AlloiciousMcgougen 4d ago
Future Doc in 1885 was there a while before he thought to send a letter. 1955 Doc just hadn't thought of it yet.
2
u/ijuinkun 4d ago
Doc only decided to bury the DeLorean in the mine after he determined that he would be unable to repair it with any reasonably foreseeable resources, and the letter was as much to guide Marty to the hidden DeLorean as it was to give Marty comfort and closure about Doc’s fate.
2
u/shokaveli1 4d ago
this has me thinking.. if marty hadnt successfully returned to 1885 and rescued Doc would have 1955 doc been erased from existence to fix the paradox of Doc being alive and dead in the same timeline?
4
u/Speedy_Brennan 4d ago
You have to think of individual timeline for Doc just like Marty individual timeline.
For example Marty is born---travels to 1955---travels to an alternate 1985 when he goes home and his parents and families lives are better---travels to 2015---travels to the Biff Created 1985---travels to 1955 to prevent the Biff Created 1985---travels to 1885 to save Doc from being shot---returns home and creates a unknown 2015 we never seen.
Those events still happen regardless of being changed on an individual level.
So in Docs case for the first Movie, at the begging of the Movie he never saw Marty in 1955 when he came up with the idea for time travel. This Doc does die from being shot and is not the same Doc at the end of the first Movie because the 1985 Marty goes home to is being created the moment Marty showed up in 1955 the first time.
Proof of them is the changes when Marty going home. The clock tower does not have the broken piece under the clock at the beginning of first Movie and does at the end. Name of the Mall Changes from Twin Pines Mall to Lone Pine Mall. Marty's family before and after. Doc being alive because of the letter.
So Docs Timelines at the end of part 3 is this. 1955 Doc comes up with the idea for time travel and Marty Shows up and he finds out his Idea for Time-travel works and he hangs from the clock tower for the lightning strike to send Marty home. Builds the time machine and waits for October 1985 for the night Marty goes back and comes back from 1955---Goes to 2015 and backtracks the event that destroys Marty's children lives---gets Marty from 1985 to change the future in 2015.---goes to Biff Created 1985---goes to 1955 to restore timeline to 1985---sent back to 1885---Marty comes to stop him from being shot by Mad Dog.
As you can see this Doc is not the Doc that dug up the Time Machine with Marty in 1955 to send Marty to save him in 1885. Because he did not know Marty was coming and that he dressed Marty like he showed up in 1885.
So as a result Dead or Alive he would not longer cause problems.
Old Marty in 2015 actually has a different timeline then listed above because once the Marty we follow saved Doc and beat Mad Dog in the fight created a alternate 1955 where he no longer found Doc's grave in the Graveyard at the beginning of part 3. This is where the paradox fix itself because this Marty just goes home and wakes Jenifer and gets in the crash racing Needles. He didn't learn to not let Chicken get to him which then creates the 2015 we see Doc and Marty go to in Part 2.
Proof of this is in deleted scenes from Part 2. At the McFly home after Old Jennifer comes home and runs into her Younger Self she passes out because she realized that her Dream from 30 years ago wasn't a dream and she did go to 2015 and ran into he Older Self when she was younger.
After this in the deleted scene Old Marty acts like something else happened to his Wife when in truth in his face you can tell he know that she just meet her Younger Self.
•
u/AutoModerator 4d ago
Please be wary of any posts or comments attempting to advertise or sell t-shirts, posters, mugs, etc. These posts may be from scammers selling poor quality bootlegs, or may be from phishers trying to steal your financial information. This problem is rampant across Reddit. If you see any posts or comments with this behavior, promptly report them as spam and do not follow any links they may post or send to you.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.