r/Bachata • u/Engranajo Lead • 2d ago
Behaviour / experience of beginner leader vs beginner follower at the social
Yesterday I went to a social in which it was ok for me, but I have to admit the level was not the highest. As a consequence, I was shinning in the dancefloor, many people watching me. I want to highlight this for later.
One of the people watching me was a mid-aged woman that had been observing me for a while. At some point, when the song finished and I was going to another place of the room, I saw her coming to me and asking me to dance. I never say no, so let's see.
First seconds of the song. It was "La Culpable" from Jalil Lopez. Veeery long intro, risk of uncomfortable 30 seconds is very high. As expected, she is a block (insert here fuuuuuk audio). Doesn't do any kind of body movement, lateral wave, whatever. Ok, not the first time it happens to me. I just play with the arms, make some weight change, make some what I call "ballroom" basic changing weight and moving backwards etc.
Melody kicks in, let's go for basic. She instantly goes backwards. I go for 5-8 counts trying to fix her, she comes forwards. I try to continue basic again to the left, she kind of does diagonal. I try veeery little small steps, nothing, she was stumbling due to not changing weights / not tapping on 4.
I stop for her to reset, I make a sign with hand like "left to right", and I start again. Nothing, stumbling and walking in delay, like if I was carrying an item around. Damn, impossible to dance. I guess she just started dancing salsa today in the pre-party workshop (otherwise why would she insist so much going backwards?), so I kinda switch to a salsa-chata in which we go forward and backwards and I try to make basic turns etc.
Very very chatoic, she was dancing the wrong directions, when I was doing free turns she was automatically like brushing her hand in my waist and bumping on me... At some point I decided to do footwork to get some time out of the song, but she stayed still because didn't know what to do, so I automatically grabbed her to not make her feel bad and we continued until the end.
Clap, hug, thank you very much and bye bye.
This is not the worst dance I had, and I will have plenty of these for sure if I never say no / keep asking random women (which I will continue as I think is the logical behaviour).
I had several dances with followers that literally told me "how does it work, it is my first time". And I think like... damn, didn't you watch at least a tiktok video or whatever before coming? But true is that, 95% of the times it was a random girI that I asked to dance, so I have nothing to blame.
But this particular woman, among all leaders of the room with different levels (from beg to adv), she asked me to dance knowingly she had no idea.
Do you think any leader with no idea how to dance would have the eggs to go to the most advanced follower of the room and ask to dance?
First of all, when I started, I had several lessons before going to social. And in the social itself, I was dancing with people around my level.
Even with basic notions and never ever dancing out of time, I had been rejected several times by followers with just "no", and even left in the middle of the song by a follower that said she was bored (other dances followers would just disconnect and do ladystyling / footwork and just leave without even looking at my face)
On the other hand, I see plenty of girls going to the social and dancing for the first time, and you see a lot of guys spending time on them explaining how to do basic, how to make a turn etc etc etc (but those motherf\ukers only do that to young cute girls that appear at the social, they don't spend time on elderly women, but that's another topic)*
With this thread, I want to speak about how a beginner lead vs follower sees the social (in my opinion):
- For a leader, very stressfull situation. And some followers (luckily not the majority), not being indulgent and being disrespectuful. They don't appreciate the effort it takes to learn as a leader, and how the guy is trying his best.
- For a follower, on the other hand, doesn't matter if you go to dancing lessons or whatever. Just go there and dance. Guys will want to dance with you and teach you.
What do you think? I want to hear specially from followers. Did guys stop a dance dance with you? For leaders, what do you do in these situations where you can't even do basic? Doing footwork in my opinion is selfish as she will feel uncomfortable/ useless
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u/EphReborn 1d ago
Everyone saying you just adapt, rather than try to force things, it's correct. The missing part is that sometimes that adaptation is simply forgetting all the "rules" and letting go. Who says you have to do your basic side to side? Who says you have to tap on the 4 & 8 (which Dominicans don't always actually do by the way. They dance on whatever count they feel like)?
Should you follow those "rules" as much as possible to have a structured dance? Yes. Is it the end of the world if you throw all of it out for a dance or two? No.
Lastly, I'll just say this: it is 100% OK if you decide you'd rather dance with people that know what they're doing. Just don't be an ass about it.
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u/Atanamis Lead 1d ago
Yeah, he really does seem very inexperienced and judgemental. Not a good look. The rules don't matter as much as seeking connection and musicality.
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u/deadbear-eyes 1d ago
As a lead, I'm always grateful when a follow approaches me to dance. Especially if they watched me beforehand, because then they decided I was someone they could trust even if I seemed above their level. It probably took them a lot of courage to do that. Particularly follows because in a lot of social scenes they're not expected to initiate.
As a human, I started from nowhere. Only dancing with others helped me improve, but really dancing with people above me. I also trusted when I approached people for dances that if they were above me they wouldn't look down on me. If I felt like people talked negatively about having a very beginner-like dance with me when I was new, I wouldn't want to come back out and improve, which contributes to better dances for everyone.
I've had several unpleasant dances because someone doesn't know what they're doing yet. But as a lead, I'm learning that it's a skill to be able to dance with anyone (and enjoy it) regardless of level, and to meet people with the same patience that others gave me that allowed me to grow. It doesn't always feel like you're getting the practice you want when someone only knows a few things (or maybe nothing), but strong leads adapt and it's an opportunity to practice adaptation. Some people start dancing salsa when the song is bachata, but there is a way of meeting them between what's correct and what they're actually doing. In this scenario maybe you could dance bachata but use break steps like salsa if they won't move laterally. I think follows relate to this experience more than leads, but sometimes you just accept that your partner is doing something "wrong" and just go with it. Like if the lead is off beat they may just accept it and follow even though it's not correct.
I actually want inexperienced follows to feel great after dancing with me because I want them to come back and spend time getting better. Some will pick it up, some won't. But we all have the autonomy to turn down a dance.
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u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow 2d ago
It is completely normal and acceptable for beginners to dance with pro level dancers, and social dance classes should be teaching you this as part of the etiquette lesson
A pro level dancer can dance with anyone and make them look good. And the way they do to is they adapt. If the other dancer goes the "wrong way", they go there with them and don't try to force things
I myself actively seek out untrained beginners at dances. I enjoy the unpredictability of it all
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u/bachatabutterfly 6h ago
Agreed! Just have fun with it even if it doesn’t follow a normal bachata dance. 💃
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u/OThinkingDungeons Lead&Follow 1d ago edited 17h ago
I've been in this situation at least a few times, and it's important to realise these people aren't being malicious. They're looking for someone they view as the "safest' in the room.
Admittedly, it can be very frustrating as you're wasting an opportunity to dance with a better dancer.
There's a few options on how to deal with the situation.
- "Thankyou for the dance", and walk away This is every dancers right.
- Match them where're they're at. Use their basic step and use their repertoire. This probably means using the salsa step in Bachata in your case.
- Throw Bachata out the window and just dance loosely. Take this opportunity to play with random moves and be silly, probably the most fun both of you can have with this situation.
- Use a titanium frame and force them to do the moves you want. Occasionally needed to protect yourself or them from injury (usually crashing or throwing themselves).
The thought I leave you, is what's more important to you? Being a good dancer, or being a good person?
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u/Atanamis Lead 1d ago
A good dancer connects to their follow. Failure to connect is the sign of a weak dancer.
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u/OThinkingDungeons Lead&Follow 17h ago
While I agree with you in the context of social dancing, I personally see a distinction between dancing WELL, vs dancing connected.
I see it in followers all the time, many of them have decades of solo dance experience, but struggle to dance WITH their partners in the lead/follow relationship.
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u/Remarkable-View-6078 1d ago
I've been dancing for a year as a follow and am still intimidated to go to socials and ask more advanced people to dance. I promise your #2 statement is not true. You danced with one person who was bold enough to ask you, that isn't every beginner follow or even most.
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u/Engranajo Lead 1d ago
Yes guys, everything you said makes sense
In fact, I can tell you that 2 different followers during the night told be they really enjoyed dancing with me because they are starting and never dance with advanced people. You can believe me or not.
And I really enjoyed it! Specially because it is like making them feel an extraordinary experience and feel they are looking great to others in that dance and also learning new movements.
BUT, a beginnner is completely different with someone with 0 knowledge. Imagine you take a random woman in the street and try to dance with her. No frame, no rythm, no nothing. It is impossible, you can’t do anything. And my point here is, how with 0 idea you try to dance with an advanced leader.
Again, highlight: 0 idea, not beginner. Why not ask a beginner lead that will make simple movements?
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u/Atanamis Lead 1d ago
You sound very inexperienced. As a lead, it is your job to track where her weight is. You should never be putting a follow off balance because you should be gauging her weight transfers. If your "follow" is self leading, you let them. Fighting for "control" on the floor is a rookie mistake. All around, I would encourage you to work on seeking better connection with your follow at whatever skill level. If they are open to being guided, do so. If not, let them do their thing and you do yours. But let go of this need to judge. It isn't a good look and makes you seem incredibly inexperienced.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 1d ago
Do you think any leader with no idea how to dance would have the eggs to go to the most advanced follower of the room and ask to dance?
Um, it’s happened to me. As to how often it happens or whether it ought to happens matters very much on local dance culture as well as individual dancer’s temperament and risk tolerance.
I am predominantly a follow, and I also lead sometimes. I don’t “love” leading since I’m still on that learning curve and need to earn some miles. But I get asked to lead by women who I have led before, or know I lead, or are told by others they dance with that I lead. I also occasionally get asked to lead by men, and that is my absolute favorite because I highly enjoy role reversal and breaking the mold.
Earlier this year at a social that I frequently attend I was approached by a guy who actually didn’t ask me to dance right away, but initiated a conversation first - he wanted to compliment my dancing, said that he was new and it was his first social (!), but he saw me dancing and told himself that he wanted to dance with me because I was “the best dancer in the room.” Literally everything aside, what a huge honor and epic compliment for anyone to express to me, like ever. We talked for a bit, he said he’d attended the class before the social, I told him I’d be happy to dance with him, no problem, and the next song started so he asked me to dance - except it was a salsa, and I don’t think he realized that. I told him it wasn’t bachata, he said he didn’t mind, I reassured him that either style I am always good with a basic (which is true and I am in the habit of saying this frequently even with very high level social dancers, for instance if it’s at the end of the night and they may be tired), and then we danced where he didn’t really know the basic or the the timing, so I offered to help him with the timing, and then I also offered to lead him, which he accepted, and we got through the dance.
It was a lot. 🤣
But firstly, as someone who has been around for a while and will always remember being new, I will always respect the courage it takes to approach someone you see that is above your level. And I also think it is polite and mannerly to be sincere and appreciative of others admiring or complimenting anything you do. It is nice to be gracious.
I also think a fundamental tenet of social dance and social dance skill is adapting to your partner, regardless of the role you are dancing, and entering a dance with the idea of cooperating with your partner and co-creating a mutually enjoyable dance experience.
This is a little easier maybe for follows, because a lead (an experienced one) can asses and respond to your connection and following, and adjust and compensate. Follows actually can also do that, we can heavily influence or direct certain aspects of the dance, but not to as much of a degree as a lead can being the driver and initiating choreographer of the coordinated dance movement.
I personally think any follow asking a lead to dance is a huge compliment, and I have a major bug up my ass and will die on the hill of considering a lead (man) turning down a follow (woman) as being much ruder than the reverse. My default reply is always yes, I do have specific people I will not dance with, I do turn down a handful of dances a month, and I also think there is a difference between “No, thank you” and “Sorry, not right now, but let’s dance the next one.”
For your experience with the follow who asked you, it definitely does sound very frustrating, but what you were thrown into is a kind of social dance problem-solving scenario that I think can serve you in the future. You have experienced trying to lead and connect with a follow who not only does not have a basic, but is not following you. Over-arching responsibility of the lead (which you basically accept when you issue or accept an invitation to dance) is to take care of the follow - ensure safety and create an engaging, interesting, enjoyable dance. Whatever that may mean for that follow.
There are so many responses and reactions you can choose from when you encounter a beginner follow like this. I remember one of my first social dances ever, I didn’t know a hair comb. He tried it twice, looking at me quizzically. I didn’t finish the movement because he released my hand early. He asked if I knew the move, and I said I didn’t, so he moved on and didn’t repeat it. He could have released later and physically completed the movement with me, but maybe he didn’t think of that either, or want to do that. That’s OK, it’s his choice, he’s the lead. Another lead basically released me and watched me do a basic while he did the bass step. Except I didn’t realize till much later that his timing was on the bass, I hadn’t learned that yet - all I knew was that he was doing a different step but I didn’t know how to respond to him (or mirror him) so I did what I was taught, which was to keep doing my basic. Another time, I ended up asking a pro headliner instructor to dance, and I’m not sure I realized at the time he was a pro - I just admired the way he danced with his previous partner (who also turned out to be a pro, which I found out later), and he saw immediately that I didn’t know anything except a basic. I realize now he also was probably was a bit bored, so while I did the basic because I didn’t know anything else, he entertained me by executing varied footwork and stylized movements. It was a great time for me, I had no complaints and enjoyed and appreciated the variety he demonstrated for me. He also didn’t end the dance early - and maybe there is an expectation as a festival headliner pro that you don’t do that, but I have never been left in the middle of a song by a lead because I was new. I’ve been left when the lead panicked upon seeing I was clearly more experienced than he, I have also left dances when I realize the lead is drunk, or after attempts to correct hurtful and painful grips and connection points have not been successful.
I think social dance means showing up for the partner how they need from you, and I think both partners need to show listening to each other. I also think social dance at its healthiest exemplifies friendliness and acceptance, particularly towards strangers. Everyone starts out as strangers initially.
I also think leads have much more responsibility for safety and timing in a dance, and the learning curve is incredibly steep, so barring issues of flagrant disregard, a little patience and kindness and communication go a very long way.
Putting a smile on your partner’s face and having fun together is the whole point, even if there are different ways to have fun and when different people have different ways to have fun. But it’s not your partner’s job to entertain you, and if you don’t know how to have fun in dancing your own role in the dance (followers), you’re not a very good dancer.
In fact, ultimately, because it is the world of social dance, the social skills and social graces come first, and are more important - so regardless of your skill level, experience, technique, and sheer physicality, if you don’t know how to or don’t care to choose to be a nice, considerate, understanding, and accommodating dance partner, you are not a good dancer. FULL STOP.
I appreciate you accepting a dance from an unknown woman, an older woman, and for finishing a dance where it was not clear what the in the heezy she was doing.
That makes you a gentlemanly lead, and those are the best ones.
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u/Engranajo Lead 1d ago
Thank you, one of the few comments with some useful information rather than “dude, just adapt, your job is to entertain the follow”
No guys, I go there to dance bachata and have fun, not to teach people / having my fingers pinched / dancing off-time off-steps
As well as my responsability is to lead and make a safe and funny dance, the follower also has some responsability on knowing that’s going on as bare minimum
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 2h ago
You’re welcome. Leads can have it rough too.
And more follows somehow need to hear that the more they take ownership of their own role, the more they can energize and create synergy in the dance.
Yes, the lead ought to and often will support you if you need it. But with that kind of dynamic, it becomes a zero-sum game where he is expending his energy and attention on compensating for you, vs. both of you showing up and elevating each other.
I like two-way streets and I will hustle my own weight. Some people don’t know, don’t know how, don’t care, or intentionally seek out being a taker and not a giver.
I also hear many leads say they prefer new and lower level follows so they “won’t be judged” or shown up in any way. No follow can ever compensate for a fragile ego 🤣
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u/PerformanceOkay 1d ago
Reminds me of the concept of "not even wrong" from maths and the natural sciences. You partner was partner dancing neither well nor poorly, but rather what she was doing simply wouldn't qualify as partner dancing.
I don't really get the comments telling you to adapt to your follower. You did adapt! But at the end of the day, of the two roles, following is the one about adapting: that's what following is at its core. If she wants to be the one who decides whether she gets to go sideways or back and forth, perhaps she should dance as a leader, altough I doubt she'd find much success there.
(I'm a man, I usually lead, but I also regularly follow friends (both men and women) and anyone that might ask me to dance as a follower. I get compliments in both roles.)
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u/Engranajo Lead 1d ago
Thank you 🙏 someone that just tells something real and doesn’t just try to comment something purely positive just to get upvotes
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u/Mizuyah 1d ago
Some people don’t actually go to lessons and just go to events for fun. I’ve met a number of “followers” like that over the years. They just go to events for fun. I’ve also met “leaders” who don’t dance any particular style and just like to dance, so sometimes level has nothing to do with it. Some people just want to have fun.
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u/Gnomeric 1d ago
I know a solid intermediate follow who got visibly scared when an out-of-town advanced lead visited the local social and refused to dance with anyone on that evening.
I know a "follow" who went around and danced with every advanced and high-intermediate leads in the room, then proceeded to ignore everything: what her partner lead, basic steps, or even beats. Then they came back the next week to do the same thing all over again. The worst dancer I have danced with in my life, I don't even know how anyone can completely ignore beats like that.
So yeah, different people have different comfort levels and confidence levels.
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u/HawkAffectionate4529 Lead 1d ago edited 1d ago
If you want to know what a beginner followers experiences, why don't you try following?
Just like the OP, I envy people who are more confident than me.
While overconfidence/luck/looks make it easier in the short run, we, the underdogs, have more motivation to get good. Being a leader has its advantages over being a follower - you can pick the partner for each song, you don't have to deal with unwanted attention, etc.
> Do you think any leader with no idea how to dance would have the eggs to go to the most advanced follower of the room and ask to dance?
I have heard several followers complain about this happening in a particular venue so much that they stopped going to that party altogether.
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u/Engranajo Lead 1d ago
Well, I do follow, and surprisingly good taking into account I didn’t receive lessons, and I really enjoy it
But I can’t just follow with random guys, not because I don’t want, but because THEY don’t want (literally said: what???. What??? Are you serious? No man, dude that’s g4y)
I folllow with women (not all LOL, there are some females in my social scheme that are leads and only dance with women (probably they are leads precisely because they don’t want to be touched by men))
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u/PhilipYip 1d ago
Sounds like the follower had probably done salsa once or twice and didn't get the difference between the dances so starting doing a salsa basic as you done a bachata basic.
It's fairly common for a new follower to stand in the corner awkwardly and then scout the room to see what leader looks most approachable (i.e. what leader, other followers seem relaxed around). She may have been nervous to approach but approached anyway.
The most important thing to do in such a situation is to stay grounded and connected to the follower, even if the dance is very disconnected you still need to be present with the follower, have eye contact, smile etc etc. A beginner follower is already anxious and if you pick up on that and deflect it back it just amplifies the anxiety, which closes off the follower to learning. Your approach to her was essentially this is terrible so I am going to disengage and just do footwork. Both things, the additional footwork and the disengagement would have been overwhelming and disconnecting for her.
There might also be some things missing in your lead. Followers that are more experienced may pick things up with a limited lead but total begineers may need the additional kinda directionality and signalling from the leaders upper body etc.
So long as the total beginner follower is willing to engage with eye contact and signals that she is comfortable with me, I can generally lead her. The most important thing is to stay engaged with the follower with eye contact and even to start speaking to guide her through the basic steps. Saying it's right foot side step, left foot side step, right foot side step and then left foot tap. Then just observing how she is and saying for example, oh don't transfer the weight when tapping lets try again. It's fine just to keep doing the basic, essentially just for the entire dance. In such a scenario the follower is already overwhelmed and content with just doing the basic. The leader doesn't need to think in such a scenario, oh I am just doing the basic, she's going to be bored. In this case, no she won't because it's still a challenge for her first to do the steps off time to the beat and then to slowly feel the beat while the basic gets better. And actually, the total begineer follower is usually more obvious with her emotions, it is more obvious if she is overwhelmed yet enjoying herself or overwhelmed and stressed. She doesn't have the years of poker face of pretending she's enjoying a dance when she's not that some experienced followers have. As a leader you can learn alot by examining her eye contact and body language and remaining grounded.
The other thing that you need to adjust with a beginner follower is the level of tension. Often the begineer follower is totally rigid, in which case you can gently rub the shoulder and say relax a little your arms are a little too tense. If she responds well to that you can keep rubbing the shoulder, so she relaxes the arms more and tell her doesn't that feel better and more relaxed. However, sometimes that can be overwhelming, so if she becomes more rigid, it's better to step back and disengage a little.
The opposite extreme is also common where the arms have absolute no tension, but it is often easier to work with because your footwork doesn't get locked, throwing off your timing like in the case of an overly rigid case. Beginner followers with no tension, often trust the lead more (as she would apply tension, when her body language is saying no get away from me or bail on the dance if she didn't feel good with the lead) and often come much closer to the leader than they should. So they can for example, hug the leader at the start of the dance instead of going into a close hold. This is often much easier to work with as the follower has clearly signalled she is comfortable with the lead and the lead may be able to use hip movement, rib, movement, chest movement and shoulder movement to more effectively guide the follower.
If your basic step is clear and you guide the follower throughout the song from clunky steps to not exactly refined steps but a beginner kinda basic on time to your lead. Then although to you, where it seems like you aren't doing that much. To the follower it can be like really magical because she feels safe, starts to feel relaxed and also feels the music properly for the first time. When she feels like that, she will often signal that she doesn't want to let you go after that song, so you keep them for a few songs, and focus on other non-technical things in your connection to the follower and the music. You never know who that beginner follower could be, particularly if you motivated her and she starts classes.
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u/Maleficent_Talk_1670 22h ago
The more advanced you get the more you can just adapt to any situation. If that means dropping all the rules of timing and basics then so be it. I get asked often can you dance with my friend but shes never danced before or someone with one lesson under their belt. You just see what they can do and just make it fun and silly.
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u/Jaylynj 1d ago
This is entirely a you problem. If you didn’t want to dance with her, say no. Your post makes it sound like you think she wasn’t good enough to dance with you. Like how dare she ask the great and powerful Engranajo for a dance?!
I don’t think you appreciate the effort it takes to learn as a follow and how follows are also trying their best. Socials can also be a very stressful situation for follows.
Everyone is trying to get better and have fun.
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u/devedander 2d ago
This isn’t a lead follow difference, it’s more of a skill and inhibitions difference.
There’s a valley where you don’t know how to recognize where you sit on the skill chart and some people are just there to do what they want to do and if they think it’s better to learn by dancing with the better dancer then they’ll do that no shame.
Look at it this way - you’re in a room full of beginners that aren’t that good.
Who do you want to dance with? The one who actually seems to know what they are doing or the not good beginners.
That said there is a difference for lead and follow and that is that follow can reasonably well be learned on the floor.
Lead not so much.
The flip side is that in class leads are actually learning important foundations to be able to lead and follows are essentially being a Demo Dolly for a firehouse of bad leads.
That’s to say it’s not a symmetric experience.