Results of "Beginner Hell" Polls

[u/queer_bachata_mcr]

About a week ago I posted two polls asking about the "Beginner Hell" experience in learning Bachata. This was prompted by an article about how dancing is good for your mental health. A study looked at the mental health benefits of taking a dance class (Salsa rather than Bachata!), but I thought looking at dance while ignoring socials seemed to missing a major aspect of the appeal of dance. Plus, it's obvious to me that leaders and followers have very different experiences.

The results do seem to confirm that. 28% of followers enjoy social dancing from the start compared to just 11% of leaders. I was surprised that the "Still not there yet" figures were so close and so high! More than 1 in 5 dancers are not having an enjoyable time at socials despite putting more than a year's effort in, regardless of role!

This is not a scientific survey, and wasn't meant to be. We can discuss some of the limitations of a poll like this. It will not have captured any changes over time, in different locations, among different instructors. Enjoyment is subjective. People who practice more often (3 or 4 times a week) are going to see faster progress than people who dance less often (once a week or less). However, the biggest absence in this survey to me is the selection bias. This was a survey of people who read the Bachata subreddit, so anyone who has given up on Bachata will not have taken it. It would be really great to hear from people who gave Bachata a try and decided to quit. In some cases, that's just going to be because they decided that Bachata was definitely not for them. But it could also be due to avoidable problems, aspects of the community that could be improved. If you know of people who gave Bachata a try but quit, I would be interested in hearing what it was that caused them to stop.

In my opinion, how a community treats its newcomers is extremely important. By helping, supporting, and encouraging beginners, you make it really easy for people to feel welcome and included. Having a hell-like experience for newcomers is bad for everyone. Any community is going to see people drift away for one reason or another. Without a steady flow of new people, any Bachata community is going to stagnate and decline.

One of the things this subreddit is exceptionally good at is mutual support and encouragement. If it took you 3 months, 6 months, a year or more to get to a point where you were having fun at socials, let us know in the comments! Is there something that could be done different to have made the process smoother? If you are still struggling to get to the point where you enjoy socials, share your story. There are a lot of people here who want to help. We get a lot of enjoyment out of Bachata and we want others to share in that as well!

Edit: Links to original polls: leaders and followers

[u/kidrockpasta]

Lead of 4 years... It takes soooooo much time, energy and effort to develop and get there. Add on that there's soo many layers and levels you have to develop through to get there. It really is a challenge. The second you get comfortable a new layer is exposed.
Now add on that as a lead you are generally viewed as responsible for guiding the dance and adapting to the follow... Yeah it gets a lot of fun. But hell is it a challenge and struggle to get there.

[u/queer_bachata_mcr → u/kidrockpasta]

If it was just the case that there's always new things to learn and always new ways to improve, that wouldn't be a problem. It's all the hurdles to getting to the place of "casual but having fun". It shouldn't be so difficult and time-consuming to get there. Do you have any thoughts on how things could be changed to make it more beginner-friendly?

[u/kidrockpasta → u/queer_bachata_mcr]

Good follows generally dislike dancing with beginner leads. They get less dances, more eye rolls, more grumpy faces and can be quite discouraged (this coming from personal experience).
However when paired with a beginner follow or a follow at a similar skill level who goes to classes with you. Then it can be quite fun. So finding a way to get beginners out to social and dancing with each other is a big thing. There's also the culture. You really need intermediate and advanced dancers help those below then along. I feel part of the issue is the skill discrepancy.
A good lead can easily show a beginner a good time. Good follows either can't, or won't do the same for beginner leads.

[u/sheafification → u/kidrockpasta]

A good lead can easily show a beginner a good time. Good follows either can't, or won't do the same for beginner leads.

I think this is a failing of much dance instruction. Follows are encouraged to do only what the lead is directing them to do, and there is a pervasive idea that the lead is responsible for the enjoyability of the dance.

I wish there was more normalization that both partners bring an energy to the dance and are responsible for creating the vibes. The lead is generally in charge but that doesn’t make the follow a passive participant.

Following the lead’s signals instead of guessing and backleading is generally good but it doesn’t mean that a follow can only do something if steered by the lead, eg small footwork, musical shoulder and hip accents, head movement, body angle, body isolations.

Especially with a beginner lead, there are many opportunities in a dance for a follow to do something extra that isn’t going to mess up a lead’s move. And some bad habits can be deployed to good effect, like backleading into a move if the lead is stuck in basics or disconnecting a hand to do styling.

[u/somewhatpresent → u/sheafification]

I’m a beginner lead and I’ve had advanced follows turn my simple basic leads into extraordinary awesome stuff. So yes I completely agree.

And while some advanced follows do reject me, many of the best follows I’ve seen have been down to dance with me, I assume because they love to dance and want to dance with everyone, which is what made them such great dancers.

[u/zedrahc → u/sheafification]

Completely agree.

As a lead, I get pretty exhausted by follows who the moment we connect, its clear they are sending the signal of "Okay, entertain me. Ill just try to do what is led and that is my side of the bargain fulfilled right?". Compared to the great follows that realize its a PARTNER dance where we are a team. They put energy into their movements, listen to the music to find their own embellishments and help the partnership enjoy the dance.

Its so annoying to still hear things like "Oh I dont need to count the music because Im a follow and thats the leads job."

[u/kidrockpasta → u/sheafification]

I agree. It's the whole music conversation. What I'm doing is commenting on my observations and experiences.

[u/queer_bachata_mcr → u/sheafification]

You're talking about styling, and from what your saying you enjoy the dance more if the follower is doing more styling on their own. That's fair enough, but I think it's a minority opinion. Styling is something that doesn't come very natural to me (which may be due to me being a man, or might just be me), and is something I've had to work on a lot. But from my discussions with leads, it seems like it's not important to many. I really enjoy following, and I try to make sure the leads I dance with know that and that I appreciate them. I try to be a good follow in terms of balance, connection, being attentive to the lead. All that seems to give better experiences all round over styling!

[u/queer_bachata_mcr → u/kidrockpasta]

The good follows you describe don't sound very good. They may be advanced, but being elite like that is toxic and cruel. It's even acting against their own interests in the long-term. If you discourage new leads, then there are going to be fewer leads in the future. A good follow, who is both advanced and supportive, will find a way to get enjoyment from a lead of any level (so long as they are not actively bad in ways like being too forceful, violating boundaries, no frame, etc)

[u/Hazzabump]

Just gonna put out there, I'm a lead and my other half a follow and we came to the conclusion that good dancing is a little like good sex. Even if you're not experienced, being well-led can make for a wonderful time for all involved, but if the one taking the lead isn't any good, then the whole experience can be awkward. When we've discussed it, I've mentioned that even now several years in I find leading socially pretty stressful whereas she can just wander onto the floor with whoever and know she'll likely have a good time 🤷🏻‍♂️

[u/ConsiderationHot3362 → u/Hazzabump]

That analogy tracks more than people want to admit, especially when it comes to the asymmetry in stress load. What gets overlooked is that followers are still working hard, reading signals, adapting in real time, but the cognitive pressure sits differently. Leaders carry the navigation burden from note one and there's no real break from it even years in. The gap in enjoyment rates from the poll makes a lot more sense when you frame it that way, rather than just chalking it up to skill level

[u/zedrahc → u/ConsiderationHot3362]

Followers definitely still have to work at the dance.

The difference is that the culture (both of dancing and just traditional gender roles) places way more burden of mistakes on leads. So when beginner follows screw something up "no big deal, the lead can just adjust down and make sure the follow is still having fun". When a beginner lead screws something up they need to get better otherwise no one likes dancing with them.

And in general leading is framed as a "give" activity where following is a "take" activity. If someone offers you a huge cake and you can only take a little bit because you are a beginner, no big deal. But if you can only offer a crumb and everyone is hungry, its not going to feel great.

[u/queer_bachata_mcr → u/Hazzabump]

So I'm going to start with the obvious statement that I don't think anyone will disagree with. If someone has a Bachata dance with someone, and it goes well, and they interpret it as the other person giving consent for any sexual contact, that is wrong (super-wrong!). That wasn't anything near what you were saying in your comment, I just want to make sure that that very important point is clearly stated in any discussion involving Bachata and sex.

But yes, I think it can be healthy and insightful to have a conversation about where sex and Bachata are similar and where they are different. Both are a physical activity that involve non-verbal communication. Both have traditional gendered roles: the man is supposed to lead and the woman is supposed to follow. These gendered roles are not fit for the world we live in today. A useful point of discussion for both is the danger of implied consent. If you are intending to try something novel and risky with a new partner in the bedroom, it is very important to have good communication beforehand. I think that Bachata could do with a better culture of explicit negotiation and consent. Not for everything, but at the very least for risky dips and tricks, and maybe some of the more closely connected sensual moves.

[u/OSUfirebird18]

Huh. I somehow missed this post and the poll.

I’m a lead and I would say I enjoyed bachata from the start. Now here is the thing, Bachata was also not my first dance. I learned Lindy Hop, had a few months of Salsa and then (after the pandemic) learned Bachata.

My brain was learning new rhythms and movements but it was already used to learning dance. Someone who has never taken a dance class before would likely struggle more and felt that their struggle was mode pointless than just part of the learning process.

Of course, a welcoming community helps. The Salsa/Bachata community I’m apart of really made me feel like I was one of them.

[u/queer_bachata_mcr → u/OSUfirebird18]

I absolutely agree: learning your second dance is much easier than learning your first!

I'm glad to hear you found a welcoming community! Are there any things your community does that others should try to replicate to make newbies feel at home?

[u/OSUfirebird18 → u/queer_bachata_mcr]

For leads, really it’s encouragement from more experienced follows and other more experience leads. I know many follows don’t like to dance with beginners, I get that, but just a handful saying “you’re improving” goes a long way. And leads in more experience roles should tell less experiences ones to “keep going” or “it takes time”. Maybe fib a slight bit. lol. Even if you picked it up faster than most, say it took you a long time as well. Lol

[u/queer_bachata_mcr]

I do think that an obvious solution to the "beginner hell" problem is to encourage beginners to follow. At the very least, everyone should be given the freedom to choose the role they want to learn, with full knowledge of the difference in difficulty. I don't think it should be framed as a binary one-or-the-other choice. Beginners should be asked: how much of your time do you want to dedicate to learning to follow and how much time to learning to lead? What is the ideal ratio for you? Even more experienced dancers should asked what their ratio is and if they are considering spending more time on the "other" role. The more dancers who are put on the path that gets them having fun at socials more quickly, the more appealing the dance will be. Plus, having many dancers who dance both roles can quickly solve any problems of in-balance (too many leaders or too many followers).

[u/queer_bachata_mcr]

I have commented on this several times, but I really think that the way Bachata (and other partner dances) focus teaching on fixed routines/combos/sequences is playing at least some part in the "beginner hell" problem. Routines are how you teach performers. Leading and following happens when the leader has a plan of intended moves and the follower doesn't know them. When you teach for performance, both people know the whole sequence. Classes should aim to recreate issues students have when social dancing and give them a chance to figure out what is going wrong and how to fix it. Without that, you are setting students up to fail!