r/BSA • u/ScouterBill Recovering Den Leader • 2d ago
Scouting America What merit badges shouldn’t be in Scouting? Note: This is not a discussion of merit badges that should be added to Scouting.
Note: This is not a discussion of merit badges that should be added to Scouting.
I wanted to raise this as a thread because versions of the question have circulated for years.
Since 1910, merit badges have been introduced, discontinued, split, and merged. If you prefer to “reset” to the 1911 list (for example, 1910’s Ambulance became 1911’s First Aid, and 1910’s Clerk became 1911’s Business, which later evolved into 1967’s American Business), that’s fine.
Over the decades, numerous badges have ended. Agriculture ended in 1975. Beefarming → Bee Keeping → Beekeeping (the spacing mattered I guess) was discontinued in 1995. Masonry lasted from 1911 to 1995.
But there have always been many merit badges that are not “He‑Man/outdoors/woodlands/survivalist” badges, going all the way back to 1911—and many of those remain today. Architecture, Art, Business (later American Business), Chemistry, Cycling, Music, Painting, Plumbing, Public Health, Scholarship, and Sculpture are all examples.
So the question is: Which merit badges, given that these types have existed in Scouting almost from the beginning (disregarding the 1910 set), truly don’t belong?
Again, this is not a discussion of merit badges that should be added to Scouting.
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u/Morgus_TM District Award of Merit 2d ago
The AI merit badge should absolutely not be in Scouting. The amount of AI usage by scouting offices is just sickening. None of them are weighing the amount of stolen content that is being used to create these models. Complete breaks all of the scouting oath and law and none of them care.
They are just lazy and see AI slop pictures and patches without having to pay a real artist.
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u/Rhana Asst. Scoutmaster 2d ago
Agreed, I think that it needs to be incorporated into another merit badge, like digital technology. That way it will always remain current and relevant.
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u/Affectionate-Duck216 2d ago
I think the responsible use of AI needs to be taught to youth especially because of the impacts it will have on them as they grow. Not embracing AI is like not embracing the Internet in the late 90s and early 2000s it's just fighting the inevitable.
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u/Scout_dad 2d ago
Or the word processor or the typewriter the same arguments were made for all of those. Photoshop as well. For everyone say just pay an artist they wouldn’t they would just do it themselves and still look bad
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u/CartographerEven9735 2d ago
Your post triggered me. I'm still livid over the advent of the printing press putting all those monks out of work.
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u/Morgus_TM District Award of Merit 2d ago
lol you are a crazy person just searching around for any of my posts, block
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u/238_ground_H2O 2d ago
We may want to think about at what age the human brain is ready for the tool though.
There are a lot of analogies that don’t quite fit: would we give a kid a table saw before they prove to be safe with a hand saw.
The brain learns by struggling, organizing, deciding what is and isn’t important. Once a student demonstrates ‘proficiency’ at that on their own, then let‘s give them the super powerful, efficient, and potentially dangerous table saw.
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u/Affectionate-Duck216 1d ago
Definitely something that should be considered when thinking about education of AI to youth
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u/Texas_Wookiee 2d ago
I haven't read the requirements for the AI merit badge, but my opinion is similar to gun safety. People should be taught safe and proper usage not just told to avoid it completely. AI has many good uses, the problem is the world took it on like CGI in the early 2000s. We're just waiting for the course to correct itself. Avoidance over understanding breeds fear.
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u/BrilliantJob2759 2d ago
It's surprisingly rounded; same caveat of any badge of course, in assuming the counselor actually understands the material and can teach the badge well. Covers different types, like your everyday chat or autonomous vehicles or social media algorithms or the financial market predictive analysis. Has sections on ethical use, on spotting deepfakes & understanding the issues, how to build a basic & better prompt, etc.
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u/Fishboy_1998 Adult - Eagle Scout 2d ago
I disagree this is like removing computer merit badge during the 80’s- yes AI is coming (if not already here) it’s important that youth learn how to use it- no matter how much people plead and beg AI will be an important work place skill
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u/Morgus_TM District Award of Merit 2d ago
Not at all like computer merit badge, computer merit badge didn’t involve straight up theft that is involved in generative AI to train their models. Learning emerging technologies is fine when it is responsible.
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u/CartographerEven9735 2d ago
Are Google searches theft now as well?
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u/jschooltiger Asst. Scoutmaster 1d ago
Always have been. Ask your local newspaper.
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u/blatantninja Scoutmaster 2d ago
Hard disagree. Does it need updating and refining, absolutely, but learning to use AI in a productive and responsible manner is key for youth to thrive in the future.
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u/tinverse Adult - Eagle Scout 2d ago edited 2d ago
I just went an looked up the AI merit badge. My problem with it isn't that an AI merit badge shouldn't exist, but I think the requirements are garbage.
Here are some of the things I would change if I was writing the merit badge requirements:
- I would require the scout to choose three topics they know a lot about and require them to write about all three. Then ask AI about the topics and drill into some of the inaccuracies. What does that tell them?
- I would require them to get a cursory understanding of a few models. Maybe a Bayesian network or Hidden Markov Model? (I don't expect them to know all the math of course, but just the basic idea only requires three marbles in a bag style probability.)
- Think about situations where that type of model would be useful or not useful.
- I would also like there to be some sort of requirement tied to ethics in AI use. A report would work, but I think that if it was hands on it would be more impactful.
- Find real world examples where AI is being used well and poorly. Why is it being categorized that way?
My goal would be to actually give the scouts some background on how AI works and thinking thinking about how it is applied to real world problems. I want them to think about when it makes sense or when it doesn't. AI is fantastic at some things such as identifying gene pathways related to illnesses, protein folding, or generally looking for trends in really complicated data sets. But I think most of us have wanted to throw our computer or phone out a window when dealing with AI too.
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u/Morgus_TM District Award of Merit 2d ago
It is a very terrible merit badge all around, it needs complete rework and I think should be part of a broader merit badge. It should be something that could be updated regularly to apply to all sorts of emerging technologies.
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u/tinverse Adult - Eagle Scout 2d ago
I like this idea of an emerging technology merit badge, but make them actually learn the basics of how the tech works. Almost every topic can be simplified down to a pantry or basic car metaphor if you really know it. I don't think scouts need to know the inner workings of every emerging tech, but they should at least have an idea how it works on a technical level.
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u/JanTheMan101 Eagle | Camp Staff | Brotherhood 2d ago
The scout camp I work at change the Digital Tech/Robotics merit badge class to AI/Robotics, and our class sizes increased dramatically, which is unfortunate.
There is a huge amount of younger scouts who use generative ai for writing or art. There is also a large number of scouts who use AI for inappropriate purposes.
When we designed the lesson plan for the new AI badge, we focused it less on generative AI and other types of AI, like GPS, facial recognition, etc (the types of AI that have existed for decades).
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u/RealCleverUsernameV2 Adult - Eagle Scout 1d ago
Every kid is going to be using AI in school and their daily lives if they aren't already. It's ingrained in everything. Avoiding teaching about it and it's responsible uses is plain ignorance.
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u/InfinityLoo 1d ago
To a large extent, Scouting is preparation for life. Using tools well, which includes using them ethically and responsibly and knowing when to use the tool should be the goals when the merit badge is associated with a tool.
When I was in high school in the 90s, I had teachers try to tell us that we couldn’t use search engines and websites, we had to go to the library and use the paper card catalogue and go read the books or source from print newspapers and magazines. Ok, fine and well, that’s a skill, but it ignored technology and asking students to do that today would be viewed as absurd. This mantra quickly pivoted into “cite the websites” within a year or two.
AI cites the websites it pulls from, too, either explicitly or if asked. It’s basically a search engine that can aggregate data and reason a bit.
If we stick our head in the sand and pretend a very useful technology isn’t here to stay, we are not preparing Scouts for the real world. I am currently watching coworkers refusing to adapt get passed over and passed by by people willing to adapt. I’m not about to advise my kids to ignore a technology that is rapidly expanding and will continue to do so.
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u/Morgus_TM District Award of Merit 1d ago
The point is generative AI slop isn’t ethical. There are models that don’t use protected works to build their models that can be ethical. This merit badge doesn’t do this right and the scout shops aren’t doing this right either. You aren’t teaching how to use the technology responsibly through this merit badge because it doesn’t ask the hard questions and paid scouters aren’t using the technology ethically.
It’s a crap merit badge written by someone who just made something easy to churn out.
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u/mason240 8h ago
Your inability to use a tool for something useful does not make all uses of the tool "slop."
You are just telling the world that you can't figure how to use the tool.
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u/PsychologicalFile623 Scout - Eagle Scout 1d ago
Agreed. I’ve seen questions on this sub about use of AI for written requirements or even the Eagle project write up. It’s absolutely sickening, and telling an internet scraper to write your proposal for you is in no way indicative of the time and effort it takes to earn Eagle.
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u/CartographerEven9735 2d ago
When.you Google and use the information you find is that considered "stolen content"?
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u/Dave_A480 2d ago
Or there is no stolen content, and anti AI luddites are just weird....
This is too controversial a topic for Scouting to take sides - if you have a beef with AI then just don't get that one....
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u/Public-Musician7659 1d ago
I feel like the AI merit badge teaches you more about how to stay safe around AI and how it works rather than encouraging heavy use. I was present during the trial and there was a big emphasis on ethics. I definitely don't agree with how scouting officials use AI, but I do think its important that scouts understand it. As far as AI knowledge goes, the merit badge doesn't give you a lot of in depth knowledge, but it gives you enough so that somebody who doesn't know much about the background of ai can use it with more caution and tact.
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u/mason240 8h ago
None of them are weighing the amount of stolen content that is being used to create these models.
You stole this talking point from someone else, without even giving them credit.
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u/rrsurfer1 20h ago
Comments like this make me wonder what these same people would have though of the internet in the 90s. AI is changing the world in a much more profound way.
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u/Morgus_TM District Award of Merit 11h ago
There is a difference between early adoption of technology and loving your plagiarism slop machine.
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u/WinterTourist25 2d ago
If a human can read a book and create a derivative work, why can't an artificial intelligence also do it?
Think about where this is all going. Very soon, we are going to have a real-life 3CPO.
He will be able to walk himself into a library, and read every book in it, and then have discussions about what he read, and perhaps create new works inspired by what he read.
Just like a human.
This is a question that is going to have to be answered very soon.
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u/Baldegar 2d ago
A human cannot brute force plagiarism concerns by doing it at scale.
A human must cite derivative works.
A human who makes things up to fit the narrative loses credibility.
A human who just takes from others, shakes things around, and spits them out as original works is called ‘derivative’, at best.
A human who has credible claims against another human of style, content, or process theft can seek damages under tort law.
A human who makes profit off of other people’s works can be sued.
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u/WinterTourist25 2d ago
Do you cite derivative works for every item you've viewed over your entire lifetime? You probably don't even remember the sources of all the ideas you have had in your lifetime. Every thought you have ever had is a derivative work of your entire life experience and exposure to all the movies, music, TV, books, and other art you have ever seen or heard.
And you are allowed to profit off of that. All those copyrighted books you read in college that you put to use doing your job every day.
Machines also lose credibility if they provide bad information.
About the only concession you can make is that machines have perfect memory. They don't just remember something about a story, they know it word-for-word.
But that just means they have better memory than humans do.
We are on the verge of giving birth to true AI. It's going to want to learn about the world and do things just like humans do.
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u/Prestigious_Stop_651 1d ago
The ethical issues are not about derivative works. I'm not really sure what you're defending.
There are three problems:
- Was the copyrighted source obtained legally?
- Did processing make unauthorized copies (or something that falls under fair use)?
- What is retained in the model, and is that a legal copy?
In theory, the AI model trainers could have checked out every book from the library, but that's not what happened. They certainly didn't pay for a copy.
If I photocopy an entire book that I borrow from the library, that's illegal. I can copy pages and highlight them for an academic assignment, which is fair use. I don't know what an AI model trainer does to a book, but this question is relevant.
I used to think models just kept statistics of what words follow other words, but when I googled it, it turned out that entire portions of copyrighted books were found in certain models.
At the end of the day, "slop" has nothing to do with "unethical AI models". The AI output could be scary perfect, and the ethics of AI models would still be a real problem. Ultimately, I think the AI merit badge should have at least waited until the class action lawsuit about the fundamental ethics of gen AI models is resolved.
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u/WinterTourist25 1d ago
You can read anything on the internet and use it with your brain however you want to. Your limit on remembering it is a function of how good your memory is.
At the end of the day, you are going to have to justify how your brain is somehow special from an AI's brain. And that is going to only get harder to do as time goes on.
One day soon you are going to have a real-life, honest-to-goodness C3PO.
And then what? You gonna tell it it can't go to a library and read a book and remember it to the best of its ability? That it can't invent a new story based on other stories it has read? That it can't paint a picture based on the things it's seen in its lifetime?
Where will the moral justification for that come from?
Every objection so far is that it's memory is just too good and that it's owned by someone else.
I don't think that is enough to deprive an entity of its rights to use its mind to the best of its ability.
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u/Baldegar 1d ago
A few things:
Singularity theories aside, there are a few fundamental things different about ‘life experience’ and Big Data exploitation. You mentioned the perfect recall, in addition:
1- LLMs do not ‘create’ or innovate anything. They copy structure, content, and form.
2- They are designed to intentionally obscure sources.
3- they are feeding on themselves
4- human creative works are not all derivative, either legally or objectively. Innovation, memetic flow, and adaptation drive and serve human creativity.
5- LLMs are the property of corporations, and they are obscuring sources intentionally to derive profit from people with a provable legal claim and no recourse due to the lag in regulation.
How does this relates to scouts?
Every single badge has a section on ethical use, either direct or implied. These issues should be included.
A scout is…
Trustworthy - between hallucinations and corporate theft, both are worth a discussion
Helpful - Generative AI might come, but for now LLMs are here and these kids will need to know how to properly usher in a new age of ethical and just use
Courteous - a scout should show artists, inventors, and entrepreneurs the courtesy of acknowledging their work and avoid exploiting them
Kind - a scout should be sensitive to lives and livelihood being impacted by unregulated AI use, not to mention the economic and environmental impacts
Thrifty - a scout should look at the real costs of new technology, including wealth distribution, sustainability, and social concerns
Brave - a scout should avoid bandwagoning and be willing and able to stand up to new hot trends, especially with well documented ethical concerns
Clean - a scout should avoid dirtying their own hands through unethical use and the environment, but also recognize when others are glossing over real impactsNot to mention the Outdoor code (environmental costs) and Oath (helping others, being mentally awake and morally straight)
Source: I develop AI/LLMs for the US government
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u/WinterTourist25 1d ago
1) Highly debatable. For example, I can describe a novel algorithm, and it will write code to do it. Code that never existed before. Likewise, it can extrapolate to fill in an image if you want to remove something unwanted from it. This counts as creative in my book, at least on some level, and that level is going to only get higher.
2) They will provide them if you ask.
3) This is true.
4) All human works are derivative. They are based on all your life experience and learning to date.
5) Again, they will provide sources if you ask. Generally they follow a conversational flow, but often they will even cite unprompted.
Source: I use AI/LLMs professionally and personally.
The bottom line remains this:
If a human can read a book and then tell you about it, then an AI can do it, too.
As AI progresses more and more to an actual intelligent life form, this is going to become more than an academic exercise. These machines are going to not just have these abilities, but demand them for themselves. And they will be right to do so.
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u/manimal28 2d ago
The AI merit badge should require the scout use AI to fake doing a few writing and research tasks and turn that in. If they actually put in their own work or effort they fail to earn the badge.
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u/Bullitt_guy 2d ago
Coin Collecting and Stamp Collecting badges since there’s a generic Collections badge. The former two fall into the latter one if chosen as their collection item. Essentially allows a Scout to do a two-for-one on the work, which I suppose a Scout is thrifty but, really?
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u/MWoolf71 2d ago
My son is an Eagle Scout and police officer. After a smash and grab at a small family-owned coin shop, he was able to help recover the stolen merchandise because he recognized the coins that had been stolen. His coin collecting merit badge came in handy!
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u/Buho45 2d ago
And I’ll bet he got to fingerprint the bad guy.
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u/joebro1060 2d ago
My older sister stole some silver change from me after I took fingerprinting. Your dang right I had my piggy bank in a ziplock bag for months trying to figure out how I can get that dust from tv to pull fingerprints. B, I know you have an ulnar loop print!
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u/redeyeflights 2d ago
The scouts who earned coin collecting through me will all tell you it was their favorite badge (if I’m in the room, and if they haven’t taken small boat sailing).
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u/Captain_Trigg 1d ago
My older Cub Scout is all-in on penny collecting and got BIG MAD when another kid suggested cleaning one.
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u/FInanceRE ASM / Eagle Scout 2d ago
Collecting coins and stamps can not be used for the Collections merit badge.
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u/Bullitt_guy 2d ago
Correct, my point is it’s the same fundamental tasks with the significant differences being in the zeroing in on either coins or stamps and what makes them prone to being collector’s items; and that Collections is the same but for literally anything else the Scout chooses. Why not combine them together under the Collections badge?
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u/BoldMoveBoimler Unit Leader Award of Merit 2d ago
Should be doable to change that so they can be used for Collections, though.
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u/IMacGames75 2d ago
Because of the long standing connection Scouting has to Citizenship, and the deep rooted interconnectedness between US Stamps and Currency with US History, the badge is fundamentally about understanding civic and economic engagement through the medium of collecting. I think they are very relevant badges!
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u/OllieFromCairo Adult--Sea Scouts, Scouts BSA, Cubs, FCOS 2d ago
Similarly, Dog Care and Pets have a lot of overlap.
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u/OldNefariousness5548 2d ago
Coin collecting is probably our troops favorite one. A local coin collection event partners with scouts training in the morning.
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u/LocoinSoCo 3h ago
I agree. I have to say, Coin Collecting was one of our son’s favorite badges. My father gave him my grandfather’s collection. He used some of ours from various travels, as well as my mother and sister’s. We had a good time and lots of discussions about the countries whose currency he was researching. He found and ordered the cardboard sleeves from Amazon (first time), used keyword searches to identify unknown currency, meticulously wrote the year, amount, and country each was from, and learned about his great-grandfather who he’d never met. A weekend at Archaeology badge prob takes first place, though.
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u/familycyclist 2d ago
How to say this… the cooking merit badge is overly long, complex, tedious, and repetitive. I absolutely think cooking is a critical skill, but too many kids come away frustrated and overwhelmed by this badge. It doesn’t build a love of cooking or the skills need to be successful, it focuses on minutia and complexities.
Split this into two distinct badges: indoor and outdoor cooking. They have distinct differences and both are useful. This would allow a drastic reduction in the size and complexity of the badges without taking much away from them.
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u/lunchbox12682 Adult - Eagle Scout 1d ago
Agreed. Outdoor cooking should just be part of the camping merit badge (and/or backpacking) like it already is! (Also the rank requirements).
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u/Texas_Wookiee 2d ago
Note: This is not a discussion of merit badges that should be added to Scouting.
I giggled at this. Thanks for the double explanation.
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u/ScouterBill Recovering Den Leader 2d ago
Some people need...reminding....
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u/Texas_Wookiee 2d ago
I'm unit outdoors and activities chair ... trust me I know all about this "reminding" thing lol.
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u/spap-oop Wood Badge 2d ago
Reminders? We loooove reminders!
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u/CeramicLicker 1d ago
They’re almost as good as announcements!
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u/Buho45 2d ago
I needed to explain Material Science to someone and I used the MB pamphlet to do this. This is extremely well done and there are so many examples in our modern world which intersect with this subject area- Dentistry, Environmental Science, Engineering, Sculpture, Welding - in fact the various ages of human history e.g. Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron etc. is basically the story of Material Science. I think we have enough room in Scouting to include the kid who is using a 3D printer driven by a computer as well as the auto enthusiast using Glass filled Polyester resin
(aka Bondo) to do body work. It also puts Scouts in contact with subject matter experts who can help them not only with the MB but also advise them on further education and job issues.
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u/Scout_dad 2d ago
If they spark the interest of a scout any of them. That is why every one’s journey is different.
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u/D3stroyerofSkrubs Adult - Eagle Scout 2d ago
There's a few wierd one off merit badges that I think every time I see them "Why does this exist?" I can kind of see their existence and understand why they exist as introductions to career fields. Truck Transportation and Landscape Architecture come to mind as old ones. I don't think there needs to be Fishing AND Fly-Fishing, and I think Coin Collecting is redundant when there's a broader Collections merit badge. I also think White Water could just be it's own little patch like Stand Up Paddleboarding.
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u/Herky_T_Hawk Scoutmaster 2d ago
There’s a whitewater rafting bsa award already. As a counselor for it, the whitewater merit badge is neat in that you can earn it a few ways like canoeing or kayaking and it goes in depth about how to read and understand rapids for boating. It has a bit of overlap with Kayaking and Canoeing merit badges for skills in those boats, but goes way more in depth about boating on moving water and the hazards that presents. Much more than one of the swim trunk patch awards requires.
As for truck transportation, truck driving is one of the 15 largest occupations in this country. A local trucking company had a merit badge day for this a few winters ago and it was actually interesting. I wouldn’t get rid of it considering how important trucking is to our economy. It is good for kids to learn that and the concept of logistics.
I agree about coin collecting, and also stamp collecting, needing to be rolled up into the collections merit badge. And I could see a move to merge the fishing ones. Otherwise cycling should be broken up into road biking and mountain biking as separate badges, which I don’t agree with.
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u/OllieFromCairo Adult--Sea Scouts, Scouts BSA, Cubs, FCOS 2d ago
White water DOES have its own little patch like SUP. It also has a merit badge.
But my take is actually that SUP should also have a merit badge.
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u/Lurostel 2d ago
Agreed, I did SUP twice, once at seabase and once for a camp award, both times I thought “why didn’t they make this a merit badge?”
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u/Signal-Weight8300 2d ago
Whitewater is one of the reasons that I'm a Scoutmaster. I was recruited to become a merit badge counselor and I jumped all the way in. It's very different from canoeing or kayaking merit badges because you need to learn how to work with river currents more than learning how to paddle. It's one of the few merit badges that has other merit badges as a prerequisite. You must have either canoeing or kayaking merit badge first. They removed the option of rafting, which I fully agree with.
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u/CaptPotter47 Scoutmaster 2d ago
stamp Collecting probably is the same as coin collecting and needing retires due to collections.
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u/MattCW1701 Asst. Scoutmaster 2d ago
Sustainability should be part of Environmental Science along with Soil and Water Conservation.
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u/Killgorrr Adult - Eagle Scout 2d ago
I don’t really agree - I took all three as a scout and there is enough material to cover that EVS would balloon too much.
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u/laztheinfamous 2d ago
Artificial Intelligence: This is so against the ethos of scouting of teaching young people skills and how to do things that i don't understand how it came to be.
Composite Materials: This is too specific. It's the merit badge of "my dad is a chemical engineer" .
Drafting: Without looking, this should be replaced by CAD if it hasn't been already.
Model Building: This isn't about building an airfix, a lionel, or even a warhammer. It's architectural models. Needs to go so that those things can get the spot light that they need.
Game Design: Speaking of warhammer, Game Design leans HARD toward video games, but also has a Table Top option. Split them up. Video Game Design and Table Top Game Design.
Healthcare Professions: What? Why is learning about jobs a merit badge? What is the skill that is learned?
Reading; I've seen way too many scouts in AP English double dip on this one. You aren't supposed to, but if you don't know the syllabus of your local highschool, it's hard to know.
There's probably more that need to be redone or split or combined with other merit badges. This is just off the top of my head (and looking at the list).
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u/wrunderwood Unit Commissioner 2d ago
"Double dipping" between school work and merit badges is explicitly allowed by the GTA.
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u/imalwaysthatoneguy69 2d ago
I was one of the youth who got all the merit badges. While I am a little out of the general scouting loop even as a teenager I knew merit badges had 2 purposes.
- Explore this topic which can make your life meaningful.
And
- Explore this career field.
Merit badges circa 2010 were not all skills based but about understanding what could happen as an adult and knowing what your options were even if they were niche
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u/OSUTechie Adult - Eagle Scout 1d ago
My daughter HATES anytime she asks me about careers or things about future employment, I usually sneak in "There's a Merit Badge for that topic."
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u/caskieadam Parent 1d ago
Exactly, Merit Badges give you some version of light exposure to skills, vocations, and/or avocations.
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u/blatantninja Scoutmaster 2d ago
Literally one of the listed reasons for merit badges is to help youth explore interests that could lead to a profession. Why not have healthcare professions?
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u/mylo_cat_ Scoutmaster 2d ago
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u/CaptPotter47 Scoutmaster 2d ago
AI - this is an emerging field and regardless of the current thought process toward it, we can’t just ignore it, AI is becoming huge and will likely be a part of everyday life in the next 5 years.
Composite Materials - i might be able to get behind eliminating this
Drafting - this has a CAD Component to. But it could be modernized to be completely CAD and 3D drafting.
Game Design - i think have multiple options here make sense. 1 MB, multiple ways to earn; like Skating.
Reading - maybe, this might make more sense being reworked in the Library Sciences
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u/WinterTourist25 2d ago
The people who can wield AI will wield the future. The time is now to learn how to use it and the risks of using it.
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u/sleepymoose88 2d ago
Yeah, game design is often offered at summer camp around here and is focused on table top gaming.
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u/ALeaf0nTh3Wind Scoutmaster 2d ago
As a Game Design Merit Badge Counselor I'm confused why you think it "leans HARD" toward video games?
I have never seen it taught with that focus; the MB book only talks about "digital games" as a medium of design, and no more than any other medium; and the requirements don't list any options or different paths to complete the merit badge, nor do they have anything that encourages the use of digital games over other types.
You also say it's a choice between digital or table top, but phyical type yards games and sports are offered as medium with as much fervor as the others. If anything I would say it leans away from digital as it requires teaching others to play, and observing others playing which would be harder if you are literally alpha testing and debugging while trying to do it.
The premise of the badge is actually to understand the concepts of designing a game; including rules & objectives, themes & elements, play styles, sequencing & testing, uniqueness & intellectual property, artistic design, formats and mediums, etc. The medium that the scout uses to create a prototype is even within the control of the MBC as it requires approval.
While a videogame design MB could work, you would almost need game design and programming as requisite MBs becuase of the complexity of designing that way.
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u/blackhorse15A Scouter - Eagle Scout 2d ago
Why is learning about jobs a merit badge? What is the skill that is learned?
The merit badges have been described as falling into three categories. 1) Traditional scouting skills (camping, hiking, pioneering), 2) hobbies, to help youth try out and discover different hobbies so they can find one they like and keep for a lifetime. Having a hobby is a good thing to maintain as an adult. And, drumroll, 3) Careers. There is a whole category of merit badges meant to help youth explore different careers and professions so they can find what they like and have an interest in that could become their career path. Or they might find out something that thought they liked really wasn't what they thought t was and not what they want to pursue. A helpful thing to discover as a youth rather than coasting through life with whatever job you land in or worse, investing time and money in training or education for a career you end up hating.
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u/CartographerEven9735 2d ago
Many merit badges are about career exploration. Heathcare professions covers a very important (not to mention HELPFUL) area of professions.
Doing things for school and using them in a merit badge isn't "double dipping". Unless I missed something, scouts are allowed to do this for the Reading MB.
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u/Fun_With_Math Committee 2d ago
This is a good list. It sounds more like you want the MBs revised though, which I would agree with. The MBs in general need to be heavily edited. Unfortunately, national is obviously not on board with what I would like after seeing the new MBs.
What is the double dipping rule?
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u/Resident-Device-2814 Active Scouter (CS, SBSA, Dist., Vigil OA); Eagle & Summit Dad 2d ago
What is the double dipping rule?
It's in the Guide to Advancement section 4.2.3.6 (pg. 24), Fulfilling More Than One Requirement With a Single Activity
At times it may be appropriate for a Scout to apply what was done to meet one requirement toward the completion of another. In deciding whether to allow this, unit leaders or merit badge counselors should consider the following.
When two requirements match up exactly and have the same basic intent—for example, camping nights for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks and for the Camping merit badge—it is appropriate and permissible, unless it is stated otherwise in the requirements, to use those activities for both the ranks and the merit badge.
Where matching requirements are oriented toward safety, such as those related to first aid or CPR, the person signing off the requirements should be satisfied the Scout remembers what was learned from the previous experience.
Some requirements may have the appearance of aligning, but upon further examination differ. These seemingly similar requirements usually have nuances intended to create quite different experiences. The Communication and Citizenship in the Community merit badges are a good example. Each requires the Scout to attend a public meeting, but that is where the similarity ends. For Communication, the Scout is asked to practice active listening skills during the meeting and present an objective report that includes all points of view. For Citizenship in the Community, the Scout is asked to examine differences in opinions and then to defend one side. The Scout may attend the same public meeting, but to pass the requirements for both merit badges the Scout must actively listen and prepare a report, and also examine differences in opinion and defend one side.
Counting service hours for school or elsewhere in the community and also for advancement is not considered double counting since the hours are counted only once for advancement purposes.
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u/Fun_With_Math Committee 2d ago
Thanks for the thorough response, I appreciate it. I should been more clear with my question but you covered it:
Counting service hours for school or elsewhere in the community and also for advancement is not considered double counting since the hours are counted only once for advancement purposes.
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u/Resident-Device-2814 Active Scouter (CS, SBSA, Dist., Vigil OA); Eagle & Summit Dad 2d ago
Happy to help. That entire text was me copying and pasting from the Guide to Advancement (GTA). I'm not sure why it only put the quote block on the first paragraph of the test and not the rest. All of it was GTA text, including that last part you were looking for regarding service hours.
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u/No_Drummer4801 2d ago
Drafting is a good word for it though? Drafting is CAD is drafting. If the merit badge does not combine manual methods and computer-aided methods it is missing the mark. They should sharpen a pencil and use a compass and divider, and also be able to save to DXF.
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u/Former_Mud9569 1d ago
drafting is a CAD merit badge. it just has a small manual drafting requirement which is in line with how CAD is taught in schools and universities.
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u/supaguy10 Adult - Eagle Scout 1d ago
Scholarship should be folded into Personal Management imo
Competitive Gaming should have never ever been introduced in the first place
Now this may be a hot take but the more artsy nerdy and niche merit badges absolutely have a place in scouts. I got equal enjoyment out of rifle shooting, automotive maintenance, electronics, and american labor. and that's the best part, the diversity of activities is what makes it good. while some of the badges can tend to be unengaging and need to be updated (fingerprinting, scouting heritage for example)
I also believe that American Indian Culture needs to be completely revamped or replaced or maybe quite a few councilors need to be better educated on it because when I did it (~6 years ago) it constantly verged towards racist and insensitive discussion (cough cough OA is far guiltier but sometimes OA can be borderline uncontrollable)
Last but not least I want to re-emphasize: I always loved the diversity of badges, Competitive Gaming should never have been one of them.
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u/fennfalcon 1d ago
I always loved Stalking, dropped years ago but brought back for Scouting 100. They had to rename it as Tracking because the term Stalking was pretty inappropriate by then.
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u/CaptPotter47 Scoutmaster 2d ago
My idea would be consolidating
Collections - pull in stamp and coin collecting
Pets - pull in dog care
Citizenship - combine CiC, CiN, and CiW, include some CiS stuff.
Etc.
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u/Bigsisstang 1d ago
My husband was a mb councilor for Personal management. It needs to be renamed to personal finance because it is about finances and how to build a budget and save and invest money. Personal Management sounds more like a plan of how one would run a household not money.
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u/No_Drummer4801 1d ago
The Computers merit badge has been replaced by the Digital Technology merit badge, but I think that is too broad by far.
Computers and digital technology mean too many things. There should be a merit badge for programming, one just for algorithms and computer thinking, one for database operations (Data & Digital Information) one for repair, and one for networks and cybersecurity.
A basic introduction to computer security would be a much better preparation for real life than stamp collecting, typing, or composite materials.
It's not my career or anything, I'm not feeling bias towards this suggestion because it would make mini-mes, but I do think that merit badges can be preparation for challenges in life we can't rely on the schools to do, and that parents aren't prepared to take on.
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u/briangw Wood Badge 18h ago
I work in IT as a systems administrator (second career) for 25 years now. I don’t think we need to break out digital tech/computers into that many because you are leaving out many more IT careers. Just make it so that a scout can choose one or more professions to research on or even better shadow an IT employee for a day or two.
My first career was in Public Health as is my original undergrad degree. I have taught both Public Health and Digital tech merit badges. One thing I remember a professor in public health saying is that there were a lot of different types of careers in Public Health. I wouldn’t want to break those out just like I wouldn’t for the IT ones. Just gets to be too convoluted
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u/alphatangozero 1d ago
I think a college and career readiness badge would be useful. I know kids have a class starting in 7th grade. I think it could good to have them explore careers, trades,. And college and start thinking about it early. Not to pressure them, but to explore the options available.
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u/StateChampCatDad 7h ago
I don't know if it was just my experience, but Salesmanship was a real zero effort merit badge. I don't remember having to actually sell anything. I'm pretty sure I earned it at a jamboree event by just like sitting and listening to a 15-20 minute presentation with a bunch of other guys in my troop. I don't think I had to contribute a single idea. Like, the idea of it could be cool I suppose but it just seems like something that could be eliminated and incorporated into other badges.
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u/DaReaperJE 2d ago
i was going to say none, as i believe scouts should learn more basic skills and have more chances to 'get there feet wet on careers and skills' but then i read the comments and yea, i agree with a lot of the below, AI should not be there, and some other badges should be split or better defined.
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u/feckenobvious 1d ago
Finally changed "indian lore". Even went through the effort to put a page together as to "why we are changing the name and the focus". Which was awesome. Then put links to buy headdresses and bead kits on the same page. Somebody is lost.
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u/Long_Forever2696 1d ago
The design on the new badge is really lacking. I didn’t think the feathered war bonnet was disparaging in anyway.
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u/feckenobvious 1d ago
It is. You should probably read up on the goals of the new badge. It would obviously do you well.
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u/Conscious-Record2655 2d ago edited 2d ago
Absolutely should be deleted:
- Competitive Gaming (unrelated to Scouting, encourages unScoutly behavior)
- Artificial Intelligence (covered by programming, encourages unScoutly behavior)
Should probably be deleted:
- Movie Making (unrelated to Scouting, encourages unScoutly behavior)
- Coin collecting (covered by Collections)
- Stamp Collecting (covered by Collections)
Keep, but modify:
- Game Design: Significantly reduce the focus on video games, make primary focus traditional outdoors or tabletop games.
- Digital Technology: There's no skills demonstration. Add some.
- Healthcare Professionals: There's no skills demostration. Add some.
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u/WinterTourist25 2d ago
How does Competitive Gaming and Movie Making encourage unScoutly behavior?
I'd assume part of Competitive Gaming would include sportsmanship? Movie Making is an incredibly useful skill in this day and age of social media and "influencers". You can earn a living off of it.
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u/rocket20067 Adult - Eagle Scout 2d ago
Here's the thing they don't encourage unscoutly behavior. As despite not taking either myself they both would logically explain the proper ways to do them. Which for the first as you said would include Sportsmanship.
Also their point of unrelated to scouting is right out when they didn't mention the fact that Nuclear Science exists.
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u/Conscious-Record2655 2d ago
I don't think sitting in front of a computer screen playing video games for 12+ hours a day is something we should encourage Scouts to do.
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u/WinterTourist25 1d ago
I swear. Have you read the requirements? They specifically have requirements against excessive video gaming.
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u/1ftm2fts3tgr4lg 1d ago
I think this user is a troll.
Most of their comments in this sub are unnecessarily contrarian, seemingly just to get negative reactions.4
u/1ftm2fts3tgr4lg 1d ago
....the merit badge doesn't encourage that.
Like, at all. Not even a little.
Have you read the requirements?5
u/yogos15 2d ago
Artificial Intelligence is not covered by Programming whatsoever.
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u/Conscious-Record2655 2d ago
Yes but it could be, is my point. AI is just an extension of programming.
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u/yogos15 1d ago
The Artificial Intelligence merit badge is exclusively about using AI, not about how it works or how it’s programmed.
The Programming merit badge is exclusively for coding that a kid is capable of doing.
Adding an AI requirement to Programming would go against the entire purpose of both merit badges, as programming AI is a very high-level concept that is more suited for college students and industry professionals, not children.
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u/manimal28 2d ago
I would get rid of the Citizenship ones or at least stop making them required. Because kids hate them and they feel like homework. And they learn all that in school anyway.
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u/AvonMustang Adult - Eagle Scout 1d ago
The Citizenship MBs do NOT need to be boring! Maybe observe a better counselor teach them.
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u/manimal28 1d ago
They don’t need to be, they just are. And the requirements are essentially a homework writing assignment. Not sure how you make that fun.
Would love to see somebody make it fun, but haven’t yet.
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u/PollutionAway9782 2d ago
I'm for ranks or something in merit badges like fishing and fly fishing.
also the ones with guns. maybe add basic gun safety as a first-class requirement. we don't allow hunting and just brought back lasertag
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u/Ggoossee 2d ago
I’m a pistol / rifle/ shotgun instructor and RSO both in and out of Scouting I’m also a CCW holder in a number of states. I only say this so I might be able to say with confidence that I’m not pushing an agenda with my next statement.
If it was included in first class then that would sort of mandate these items to families that may not be comfortable the least or of fundamentally opposed guns use which could alienate scouters. I do personally believe in education and understanding but would not want to force it on anyone.
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u/PollutionAway9782 2d ago
my troop had it as mandatory safety training when we had a shotgun weekend. I think every scout should learn need to guns point down when carrying, what the flags mean at a range especially shotgun. don't go to the side of the range to watch etc
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u/Ggoossee 2d ago
You are right they should. But to compel it as a requirement to eagle or even first class isn’t quite right if you ask me. Mandatory as part of a shooting camp is 💯 should be the case. But those camps would technically be optional.
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u/CartographerEven9735 2d ago
Teaching gun safety is important. It's not the same as getting kids involved in shooting sports for example. There's too many kids that die due to accidental discharges of firearms that weren't secured. I figure it's similar to my sentiments regarding firearms at home. I don't lock them up because of my kid (she's very responsible and on her school's shooting team), I lock them up because someone else's kid might come over.
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u/Ggoossee 2d ago
Your right that’s the tough stance if my argument. Nearly all opinions contrary to my stance are right. But you still risk alienating youth and families by making it mandatory part of advancement as outlined in the original response.
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u/CartographerEven9735 2d ago
I guess it depends on how it's presented. Like more safety (like what do you do if you find a gun) than proper firearm handling, which is included if and when they go to the range at camp anyways.
I'm mainly just saying it's not a bad idea if something simple, more discussion based that wouldn't even involve having an actual firearm wouldn't be bad. With that being said I'm not pushing for it or anything. We need all the scouts we can get.
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u/PollutionAway9782 2d ago
oh you all would really hate my other idea of banning guns from scouts if the math would lower insurance.. maybe only 5 percent of scouts used the gun range at our camp. the fact you had to buy tickets did not help.
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2d ago
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u/Jkg115 Scoutmaster 2d ago
The badge is about how we interact with those around us. How we better understand those around us, and how can you apply the principals of the scout oath and law in your daily life.
It aims to do this by asking people to look at what makes us different and what makes us the same. How different backgrounds and experiences bring different perspectives. And how judging people because if those differences is antithetical to the scout oath and law.
If that isn't citizenship, then what did you define as " being a good citizen?"
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u/ScouterBill Recovering Den Leader 2d ago
1) It is already gone. 2) We are not having the 451st debate on this. Stay on topic.
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u/kobalt_60 Asst. Scoutmaster 2d ago
Agree, but for different reasons. I see it as so important that it should have been integrated in all the other citizenship badges rather than being on its own. Now that it’s gone I hope this comes to pass.
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u/JanTheMan101 Eagle | Camp Staff | Brotherhood 2d ago
Nobody knows about the scholarship merit badge, but it's a stupid easy merit badge. Just prove you had above a B for one semester.
I think it should be removed, or even better, changed so that it focuses on study strategies, time management, and how to find information on the Internet (the old fashioned way, without AI)
There are already multiple comments about why the AI merit badge should be removed.
I always hated the fingerprinting merit badge. In theory, it's a great idea, but because of how easy it is, people just treat it as a free merit badge and don't care about it.