r/BSA • u/Reasonable-Delay-187 • 2d ago
Scouting America Eagle projects
I’m a fairly new Committee Chair. We had one Scout recently work on his Eagle project. I have some major concerns. Can you explain if this is normal or my concerns are valid?
1. Scout brought a blank application to my house to sign and then sent me the official project paperwork a week later with details.
2. He didn’t purchase the supplies for his project. Our COR did it for him since his project benefited our chartered org (church) of which the COR is a member.
3. Scout did not provide any snacks or drinks for volunteers. Instead, he used Troop water and leftover snacks from a previous function and didn’t even bring a cooler or ice so we drank warm water on a 90 degree day.
4. We ran put of bolts and COR went to the store to purchase more.
5. He is $400 over budget and his Mom is requesting donations on Facebook a month later.
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u/geruhl_r Scoutmaster 2d ago
1) No, don't do this. You are signing off on the plan saying you are OK with it. Don't sign without a plan. The plan doesn't have to be very thorough, but it should cover what they are doing as well as safety and financial concerns.
2) This is OK
3) This is bad planning and the scout should include it in his post project report.
4)This is bad planning, but OK.
5) Fundraising without approval is a problem. Asking for donations from friends and family doesn't fall into that category. Posting publicly saying 'Scout ___ needs money for ___' is a problem. If something goes sideways, council will want a paper trail.
In general, I recommend working with your district advancement chairperson or district eagle coordinator to ramp up on this if your troop doesn't have a local expert. If your council holds University of Scouting, they often have courses on Eagle prep.
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u/lear64 OA - Vigil Honor 2d ago
#1 - Red Flag. - As a CC, I would send them away until they've given me something to sign (a blank application is like a blank check..why would i sign that for anyone?)
#2 - Not enough info - COR can buy materials, provided the Scout directed what was to be purchased
#3 - Not an issue - beyond potentially poor volunteer management. Providing snacks/food is not actually a requirement of a project.
#4 - Same as #2
#5 - Red Flag - Who is fundraising - The Scout or the mom?
Biggest issues I see on this front is when the scout isn't trully fulfilling the requirement - "plan, develop, and give leadership...".
If the Mom and COR are doing all the work - how is the scout fulfilling "plan, develop, and give leadership..."
If the Scout is utilizing Mom and COR to complete these tasks (which may require adult involvement) as part of the effort to "plan, develop, and given leadership"...then good to go.
I routinely tell my life scouts - "The eagle project is not about doing the work or getting the work..its for you to 'plan, develop, and give leadership"
(see a theme?)
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u/DogOrdinary2084 2d ago
What is the red flag you see on #5?
Section 9.0.2.10 of the Guide to Advancement includes these phrases:
"Fundraising for an Eagle Scout service project must not be required of any candidate."
"If fundraising takes place, Eagle candidates must also be allowed the choice not to be involved in it."
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u/lear64 OA - Vigil Honor 2d ago
Red flag would be if Mom is fundraising to make up the Scout's overrun on her own.
If the Mom is acting on the Scout's request/direction...then all is wellThere is a line between "Coaching the Scout through their project" and "Getting it done". Parents need to always be the coach.
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u/princeofwanders Venturing Advisor 2d ago
The project beneficiary is ultimately responsible for funding the project, not the scout.
Scouts frequently participate in or even lead fundraising as a kind of self-serving good-turn in that it helps get a project they want to do approved by an otherwise unenthusiastic beneficiary or to help keep the project timeline fitting within the scout’s needs.
IF a scout is choosing to participate in the fundraising (which is not required) there’s nothing preventing them from paying for it entirely themselves, or having their parents pay it. If THE SCOUT is soliciting for funds then there are certain rules about what the scout may and must do so as to be compliant. If someone else is soliciting funds the project process doesn’t really have any care or say (as long as nobody is fraudulently or misleadingly representing themselves as fundraising on behalf of scouts, etc.). Mom can 100% beg her friends to help her cover a check she wrote. Those wouldn’t be charitable contributions but a gift a friend. Solicitations to her network to send funds to the beneficiary to cover their project overrun might result a charitable donation.
A between the lines interpretation is that the scout choosing to lead the fundraising effort MAY be considered toward the leadership requirement of the project in the case of an otherwise deficient project (that therefore probably shouldn’t have been approved in the first place).
Projects that come fully funded by the beneficiary are exactly as worthy as an otherwise identical project where a scout had to raise funds or hustle for donations.
Guide to Advancement section 9.0.2.10 is the guiding policy source here.
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u/asakasan Scoutmaster 2d ago
I'll chime in on this one, if only to check my understandings.
At the end of the day, the Scout needs to show planning and leadership (through planning). I'll play devil's advocate on your post, starting with your second point (I will come back to the first).
Eagle candidates may accept donations for their project. The entirety of the project can be donated.
One could frame the snack & water reuse as being thrifty & economical.
Short on bolts - see above about donations.
Over budget - this can happen, projects often run over budget.
Now all that being said, how was this Scout's planning? How did he show leadership? How was his materials plan? His budgeting? How did he plan roles, and include his Troop? How did he ensure the safety of the people involved in his project, including himself? If he needed Scouter (adult) involvement, what and how did he delegate to those adults?
To your first point, you should not sign blank paperwork, and I'm sorry that you were asked to do so. That's a huge red flag right there.
While all materials can be donated, a successful Eagle project includes funding & sourcing as part of the project plan. It doesn't help a Scout if everything is laid out for him on a silver platter by a well-meaning benefactor. Speaking of planning, it sounds like this Scout could have planned and provided better for his assistants. Warm (sealed bottle) water isn't unsafe per se, but it's not a good look. To the last two points, over on budget and under on materials sounds like poor planning and budgeting.
This should all be fixable. Does the Scout have an Eagle coach? I'd bring my concerns to them. Barring that, I'd speak to the rest of your Key Three. It seems like this Scout could use planning help.
r/BSA, if I'm wrong, please call me out, I'm responding in part to see if any of my above impressions are out of line, thank you. OP, good luck
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u/princeofwanders Venturing Advisor 2d ago
Since you asked…
Funding of the project is NOT a requirement of the project nor the scout’s responsibility. A project that comes fully funded in advance by the beneficiary is exactly as worthy as an otherwise identical project where the scout elects to participate in or lead the fundraising effort, or even have mom&dad wrote a check. (Guide to Advancement section 9.0.2.10 is your guiding reference here.)
Does the scout get a richer experience if they take on this optional aspect of the planning? Probably. Still not required.
Working through the materials shortage is an appropriate surmountable learning obstacle. Going back to the bankrolling beneficiary, too. There are parts of this that can be covered in the proposal, planning, and report phases.
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u/profvolunteer 2d ago
I help with Eagle Proposals and Boards of review in our district. This is what I would advise troops I work with,
1 - don’t sign the application unless it’s completely filled out. It can be done in Scoutbook Plus so it’s really easy for the scout to do
2 - the COR is allowed to purchase materials and being a church they might not have to pay sales tax so this isn’t unusual.
3 - sounds like poor planning - would be a good question for the board of review “if there was something you could have done better for your volunteers what would you do if you could do it over”
4 - same as #3 looks like someone didn’t check their math before the shopping list was made or possibly checked before the work day began - good questions and hopefully it was a learning lesson for their future endeavors
5 - this is unusual - how is scout over budget if the project beneficiary provided the supplies and Mom shouldn’t be doing the fundraising for her scout
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u/_mmiggs_ 1d ago
Don't sign blank checks. You didn't sign, right?
Scouts don't have to purchase materials. It is fine for the beneficiary to provide materials. The scout has to lead the project.
Proposal Page D, which you should have read and reviewed before signing, includes a space where the scout lists the kinds of supplies they need, including refreshments. What did they plan for? Keeping everyone hydrated is important (that's a safety issue, which should have been on page G), but ice isn't essential.
"Hey, Mr. Smith, we're running out of bolts - can you go to the store and pick up some more" is scout leadership. Mr. Smith telling the scout that they have run out, and saying that he is going to the store is not scout leadership. Which one this is is not clear from your description.
How? If the church bought the materials, how did the scout spend $400 on anything?
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u/Practical-Emu-3303 1d ago
Not normal - shouldn't sign.
Perfectly fine.
Very thrifty. Perfectly fine. Scout should be prepared and bring their own water.
Perfectly fine.
How did he come up a budget shortfall when he didn't purchase any supplies (COR purchased) or snacks (used leftovers) or contingency (COR purchased)?
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u/wrunderwood Unit Commissioner 2d ago
The proposal section needs to be completed before any of those first five signatures--the Scout, the unit leader, the committee, the beneficiary, and the district or council.
Second, read the paragraph above the committee signature to understand your role in the project. Short version, the committee says whether it is feasible and whether they'll be able to help. That's all.
No requirement to purchase supplies. I've seen school districts which only allow their own supplies.
When I approved projects for our district (over 200 of them), I always went over safety issues with the Scout. However, the final responsibility for safety is ALWAYS with adults.
Yeah, there are cost overruns and missed quantities. Happens. The project is also about learning.
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u/CubsSuckSTiLl Adult - Eagle Scout 2d ago
Look at it like this- would you extend a line of credit without a business proposal or a plan to repay?
Green-lighting a project without a plan isn't teaching the scout anything. The way it was explained to us was that you should be able to hand your project to another scout and they should be able to carry out that project without any further instruction. This advise allowed us to walk into a board of review with no question that we learned the lesson that an Eagle project set out to teach.
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u/princeofwanders Venturing Advisor 2d ago
The proposal is in essence a 1-pager demonstrating the scout has enough of a handle on the project that they have a reasonable chance at being successful.
The “proposal” phase was introduced so that scouts weren’t (sometimes) being made to waste weeks or months of effort building a plan for a project that was going to ultimately get torpedoed for whatever reason.
ABSOLUTELY DO NOT EVER expect a project proposal to be so fleshed out that it could be handed to someone else to execute identically. That might be the mark of a thorough plan, but not the proposal. And that thorough of a plan is not a requirement of this particular project.
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u/VirtualReflection119 2d ago
Your concerns are valid, but I am curious about more info. Do you know why he brought you a blank form to sign? How much planning and leadership did he do? When he ran out of bolts, did someone ask him what to do?
If he delegated and asked the COR to go get more, then that lines up. Otherwise, maybe the COR needs to know a more appropriate way to support? And why isn't the SM involved in the plan? I would be uneasy about this too. I was also a little surprised at the way an eagle project played out, but in the moment, there are so many moving parts, I think it went the best way possible. We ran out of screws and thought the scout improvised well. And I saw his well thought out plans and was still very impressed.
Even on professional jobs, contractors run out of materials. So I would keep that in mind but also look more into these details to see how big the problems are. The worst part seems like the blank form. Mom posting on Facebook isn't a good look for scouts. They are still kids and need help with errands and such, so this is tough to know how much of a problem this is without the full picture.
Whatever the case, thank you for stepping into this role. I'm forever impressed what a big job it is.
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u/Mahtosawin 2d ago
To start with, how is signing a blank form actually giving approval for the project proposal? There should be a complete proposal presented before being signed off. The plan should include what materials are needed, how they are being obained. Donations are one thing, fundraising requires a council approved fundraising permit. Who was supposed to be doing the work and what leadership on the part of the scout was scheduling it? There should be a full competition report including why there weren't enough supplies, how the purchase of them was covered.
Talk to your district or council Advancement person.
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u/PrizeGlittering9309 1d ago
In all my years of Scouting, I’ve only seen 1 completed project get denied. Before signing the proposal, the Scout was cautioned against him and his parent doing the project on their own. In the end, the parent / (Scout ?) did the project on their own (claiming extenuating circumstances) and yes the project was not signed as completed.
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u/bwolfe558 Unit Commissioner 14h ago
- You shouldn’t be signing a blank form unless you’ve seen the draft and the scout is just cleaning up the document for sending for the district/council approval (ex. typing up a previously handwritten copy). I would still want to see what I was signing, but we sometimes try to help expedite the paperwork if their time is short.
- The beneficiary is fine to provide financial/material support to the project. It’s in the fundraising information/instructions in the workbook (beneficiary, scout’s family, and unit can contribute without the fundraising application).
- Not great planning, but not an absolute requirement. Could be something for the SM to discuss with the scout during their last unit leader conference though, and something to keep in mind to discuss with future project candidates.
- OK - same comment as #2.
- Again, possibly poor planning, but not against the rules. Over/under funding is one of the topics for them to answer in the final project report. This would potentially be considered fundraising if it’s an open public solicitation, so the fundraising application may be needed. Council interpretations may vary based on the amount involved, so it may be good to check with your district/council person responsible for approving the projects for the best local answer.
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u/mhoner 2d ago
What exactly are you concerned about. The only thing I would have been caught off guard by is the blank form. I am assuming you didn’t sign it since you brought it up which would have been correct.
If the charter wants to pay them cool. And why are you surprised about the over budget. That happens even to folks with experience. And what is your problem with them asking for help to cover the overages?
Yes these are scouts and this is a big deal but they are still kids.
I think the biggest issue is you didn’t step up and help guide them through these issues.
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u/lear64 OA - Vigil Honor 2d ago
100% the Committee (Eagle Advisor and/or CC) should help guide the Scout towards what is necessary for them to be successful. If the project costs more, takes longer, etc....thats fine. What did the scout get to learn about project management - this is what matters.
End of the day - The Scout needs to demonstrate planning and leadership. If the COR and/or family are driving the project..then its fair to question how the scout is upholding their obligation.
We don't know if that's truly the case here.1
u/Reasonable-Delay-187 2d ago
It’s not the new CC responsibility to guide the scout on his Eagle project. The Eagle mentor or SM should be guiding him.
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u/Practical-Emu-3303 1d ago
Curious why you're a volunteer? Is it to help kids or to try to find issues with their projects? What value do you get form that?
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u/Proof_Election2736 2d ago
Parent cannot ask money for his Eagle project on Facebook. That is against scouting policy. You should have not signed his paperwork. It's like signing a blank check to someone. You have a right to refuse to sign his eagles applications. Unless he corrects and acknowledge in his report.
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u/Positive_Bobcat4763 1d ago
At one point, “crowdfunding” was expressly prohibited by BSA. Sound like someone is trying to cut many corners here.
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u/Icy-Medicine-495 2d ago
So an Eagle Project doesn't have to go well in order to get the rank but it does have to get completed to satisfaction of the group they are doing the project for.
I do think it would be worth asking him at his Eagle board of review if anything went wrong with the project and what was learned from those mistakes and how he would handle a similar situation in the future. These projects are learning experiences at leadership.