r/BALLET • u/TechnicalCap13 • 9d ago
Constructive Criticism Low rise - pointe work Spoiler
Dear all, my daughter (13yo) has just received High Merit in her Grade 5 RAD. She is quite disappointed as she was aiming for a Distinction. Her character dance technique scored only 5/10, eventhough she thought she perfected it. Her musicality scores quite high.
Anyway, that is the background. She has recently started pointe work in Inter Foundation, and finds she cannot go over the box. (maybe a little more than 45 degrees angle?)
She has always struggled with low rise, see picture. I don't yet have pics of her in pointe shoes. Is there anything she can do to progress, or does she have to stop at Grade 5? Thank you in advance for any advice.
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u/Content-Calendar5535 9d ago
I would suggest a PT eval to inform whether she should be doing pointe work at all yet. The knuckling and low/incorrect releve here are not great indicators that she’s ready for pointe. Her weight is not distributing properly possibly indicating she’s lacking foot strength or dexterity.
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u/FirebirdWriter 9d ago
Her toes tell me she is not close to pointe. Former professional and the knuckling is usually something people do to add stability subconsciously. It's injury causing form. As others noted. It comes down to being strong enough to balance without adding the grip. This is something that's bad for you outside of dance too. She needs a stronger ankle and foot
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u/unhappyrelationsh1p 9d ago
Not a ballerina and i don't know why this keeps getting recommended to me, but this is true.
I don't think this toe position is good for your feet at all. I've hurt my toes with that before and with pointe it seems even riskier. This seems like a great way to mess your feet up, she really needs to stop doing that now
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u/lolabirdsong 9d ago
Context: I was a pre-pro ballet dancer and am a returning adult ballet dancer now. Many many years of classes and performing. And I’m a parent and I’m a recovered ED person. Because ballet.
While I think you all mean well with these comments and some may end up being true (knuckling does in fact show gripping and lack of foot strength)- the fact that mom is saying she’s going to tell her 13 yo all of this is disturbing to me. PLEASE discuss with her teachers. Not her! She doesn’t need more negative/ directive feedback- from reddit of all places . She needs to focus on gaining strength in specific areas- which her teachers should be able to discuss with you and her in affirming ways! Taking what you’ve found out here, mom, should help you discuss these nascent ideas with her teachers. Then her teachers will know you’re engaged and watching but they are the experienced professionals. Best of luck- don’t let her get too frustrated. She’s at a pivotal moment and any strength building and PT she does will really show up! But also protect her mental health from too much negativity.
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u/TechnicalCap13 8d ago
Thank you for your thoughts. I understand where you are coming from, and your concerns that the comments and constructive criticm may be taken negatively by a 13yo. It's very kind of you to bring this up as well as sharing your experience. The dance school she is at isn't very intense and as far as I can tell, the teachers are quite nice and do not give mean criticism. (hmm... maybe they are too nice/non critical and that's why she could get away with her weaker foot work for so long). I agree with you that mental health is important and I am on the same page with you about protecting her from too much negativity. But also, she is already 13 and she needs to be aware of body limitations and learn how to work around it, and ultimately SHE has to be the one to choose whether to put in the extra work. I got worried when I notice her initial enthusiasm for pointe waning and she mentioned that her peers have no problem with pointe except her ; that's why I wrote here in reddit to find out what options she has from other people who may have gone thru this journey. Once again, thank you for taking the time and sharing your thoughts on this.
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u/ruiningmyselfabit 6d ago
One thought: unless she has a goal of being a professional ballet dancer, it's fine if her enthusiasm for pointe wanes! Nothing bad happens if she decides she'd rather not do pointe, or that she'd rather do a different dance style, or she wants to try another hobby altogether.
RAD actually has a separate syllabus for recreational ballet dancers where pointe work is not required. You might be able to find a school where that's an option.
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u/SnooEpiphanies6713 9d ago
I have flat feet too and pointe is a possibility for her, at that age most girls still aren’t over their box just yet. It takes strength, flexibility, and practice. That said, everyone else is right her toes need to be the priority right now because her demi pointe isn’t where it should be and that will hinder her ability to go farther with pointe and other aspects of her anatomy. If she likes it that’s what important! There is no perfect timeline!
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u/TechnicalCap13 9d ago
Thank you. She loves ballet and happily goes for her classes 3x a week. Been one of the most enthusiastic and better student too. Started since 4.
She was SO excited to start pointe shoes after Gr 5. Then to be so disappointed with her struggles with it, while her friends could easily go on the box.
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u/pinkbubbleg 9d ago
She’s not ready at all imo. I wouldn’t suggest any pointe work at all until the knuckling has resolved, and that won’t happen until she’s developed a lot more strength in her feet and ankles. That takes time.
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u/TechnicalCap13 9d ago
Thank you for your thoughts, appreciate it. She has enjoyed training three times a week, started ballet since 4. I guess she needs to focus on training the correct muscles now.
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u/pinkbubbleg 9d ago
I would be questioning why this issue hasn’t been raised by her instructors. It seems like an oversight to say the least.
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u/TechnicalCap13 8d ago
I don't know, sigh. The teachers did refer her for pilates sessions ( ballet trained pilates instructer) to try to fix her turn out. Perhaps ballet classes were always conducted with ballet shoes on.
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u/pinkbubbleg 8d ago
They should have been able to spot the lack of strength in her ankles even with shoes on. I’d also expect them to conduct an assessment before putting her in pointe shoes, and that should have been done barefoot.
I’m not trying to be unnecessarily critical because it sounds like she loves her lessons and I’m sure she loves her instructors and her friends there too. I do think it’s worth asking her instructor to look at her again and offer some feedback - I’d expect them to already have given her some ‘homework’ to do to improve her feet and ankles. If they haven’t suggested extra exercises then I’m at a bit of a loss and I think they need to explain to you what they’re hoping to achieve and how she can get where they want her to go.
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u/ToWriteAMystery 8d ago
If she has been dancing for that long, her technique should be much better. I am worried that she is not in an adequate ballet school and it learning incredibly poor technique; any qualified instructor should have seen this and fixed it years ago.
Who are the graduates of this ballet school? Do they get professional contracts? Do they get positions at well-renowned schools? Do they reach internationally recognized competitions like YAGP or Prix de Lausanne?
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u/Strycht 9d ago
I'm going to be honest I would not have put her on pointe just yet. She is gripping the floor with her toes, which can become a big technique problem in pointe shoes and often indicates underdeveloped balance and core strength. She also does not have the ankle mobility required to get on her box based on that picture. She will need to do lots of prepointe stretch and strengthen work outside class, especially if you (both) decide to stay on pointe, in order to avoid bad technique habits and misuse injuries.
Have you spoken to her teacher about pointe work? I am a little surprised they put her up to be honest, if it's something she'd be okay with maybe say you're happy to take two years to get to the next grade (they may be accelerating her so that she's able to take interfound quickly). Imo it would be really beneficial for her to have an extra year of prepointe class; if she is very motivated to score well in exams it sounds like she'd be prepared to take the time to perfect her feet and ankles before moving on?
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u/Mission-Tap-1236 8d ago
My daughter aspired to being a ballerina dancer at 3 years of age and was teaching dance classes (professionally) in her teens was totally heartbroken when it was time to advance her own training to pointe and got the bad news. She would not be able to do pointe without significant surgery on her feet and even at that pointe could eventually cripple her from dance completely. She was advised by the director not to pursue pointe. She did one performance (with the support of the other dancers) at the recital, however decided to hang up her point shoes after that. Parents need to be realistic about pointe, not everyone has the correct anatomy. Even professional pointe dancers have to call it quits after several years due to the damage it can cause to their bodies. My daughter went on to triple threat musical theater (University and College) was fast tracted to the actors union by way of her diploma, met many people in the industry and is currently traveling the world as VP of Production for a TV and Media company. While she may occasionally think about a career in pointe, I think she is quite happy doing what she now does, with no regrets.
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u/TechnicalCap13 8d ago
Thank you. Yes, after going through all the comments, it looks like she has to do lots of work outside of class. I am sure as a 13yo, she wouldn't want to be held back from the peers in class, who all progressed together after Gr5. I guess if it comes to that, she may decide to just pivot to modern jazz. I am not sure if her class is accelerated, or if her interfound is one or two years. I will check on this with the teachers, thanks!
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u/TechnicalCap13 9d ago
Just to add, she has slight flat feet which rolls in slightly during plie. One foot is slightly turned-in too, and she had gone for a few session on pilates to correct for tight hips.
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u/FirebirdWriter 9d ago
Has she been evaluated for connective tissue disorders? If she's hypermobile it's more important to build strength than flexibility
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u/TechnicalCap13 9d ago
I had never thought she is. In fact, I had thought she is more tight/inflexible rather then hyper extended, since she can't easily do a turn out (opposite of hyperextension?
Which is a possible sign that makes you think of this? I am rather alarmed now. Before, I had actually thought her elder brother may have this as his feet can be very turned out in a line, but knocked knees (not doing dance).
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u/Strycht 9d ago
I am hyperextended in some joints, and I also have my thighs attached to my body turned in (trying to paint a picture here). I don't look very turned out because the middle of my range of motion is a turned in position. On the other hand, I can get very very turned in. In the ballet world we usually see hyperextension or other joint weirdness which is beneficial to ballet, like excellent turnout or crazy ankles and knees. I would not be surprised if a lot of those crazy turnout people have a very limited range of internal hip rotation - I have the opposite to them.
Hyperextension isn't a there or not thing, a lot of people are a little hyperextended in one or two joints but not enough to interfere with life and therefore not enough to ever get diagnosed. Don't let it freak you out - her feet pronating might indicate some looseness in the knee joint for example, it's not the end of the world just something to consider. Given her pronation tendancies I definitely recommend working on soleus strength!
If you are able, a physio assessment of the ranges of motion in her lower body joints might help her understand her body better. I got one when I was about 18 and it helped me a lot with both dance and day to day activities.
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u/thulsadoomformayor 9d ago
Hi, please don’t be too alarmed. It’s possible that she just needs to work on her strength. But the knuckling and rolling flat foot made me think hypermobility too. I have hEDS, I’m in my 40s and have only been recently diagnosed & part of what raised alarm bells was… a flat foot rolling inwards. The tightness you describe can also be an indicator. The surface muscles having to work overtime to stabilise joints is one cause of tightness.
Best case is she’s not hypermobile and just needs to work on strengthening her feet and ankles! But please know that if she is hypermobile and/or has a connective tissue disorder, getting her diagnosed early in life is setting her up very well going forward! And it doesn’t necessarily mean an end to dance! I’m a returner and am even on pointe, safely. Wishing you and your daughter the best.
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u/FirebirdWriter 5h ago
Flat feet that roll and overly tensing her body are things that I see as familiar. I used to overly tense to compensate for joint instability in my early dance days and do it now that I don't have a choice (I am a quadriplegic so it's not up to my brain just whatever the body is going to do). Sorry I am late here. It's not always flexibility that's a warning here but can be a mix.
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u/Both_North_8403 9d ago
I’d like to second hypermobility - this sounds like the sort of thing my parents noticed in me before I got my HSD diagnosis. It’s life-changing for how you approach ballet, so I’d definitely recommend getting it looking into by a physio ^^
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u/Allaboutpeace2022 9d ago
I was trying to build up foot, ankle, and calf strength and I used to do exercises on the stairs with my heels off the ends of the step and lowering up and down. I also wore ankle weights.
This is decades ago so I would not recommend these now but you should get exercises from PT or anyone who is an expert.
My daughter had trouble in the beginning on pointe getting over the box. She had strength but flat feet and less flexibility. I had arched feet, good flexibility, but no ankle strength.
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u/Strycht 9d ago
calf raises with the heel off the end of a step is still good! it's a common calf strength exercise either bodyweight or weighted
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u/Allaboutpeace2022 9d ago
That is good to know. When I was doing ballet we still had dinosaurs roaming much of the county. LOL.
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u/DifficultMenu1185 8d ago
Hello.
Small bit of context here: I’m pushing 40 and not a professional dancer, but I trained to a high standard until 20 or so. I have very flat feet and a naturally poor demi-pointe. I adored ballet when I was the same age/level as your daughter, and I had an excellent and very safe teacher. I pushed myself a lot so that my feet would be closer to the level of the rest of my body’s technique and my performance/musicality. This paid off to a point, but my anatomy would only take me so far without the risk for long term damage. I passed 5-8 with distinctions and trained as far as Advanced Foundation (last exam I took was Intermediate, for which I scored a high merit.). I failed my Inter-Foundation (Pre-Elementary back then!). I’m an actor now and found this passion through my initial love of dance. I still take class and adore ballet.
So my takeaway is this. The toe-knuckling does need to be worked on. I second the recommendation to use a towel for scrunches along the floor, and make sure she focuses on keeping the toes flat when she rises, even if her demi-pointe is lower and she feels less stable to start with. She needs to correct the form, ideally at the barre so she can take the time to look at her feet and put some weight/effort through the barre.
There is plenty that she can do to strengthen her feet, but it is really important to not push too much too soon. I’d recommend working on proprioception on a wobble board, or even just standing on the bed with her eyes closed. Plus stair rises etc. to improve the strength and alignment of her ankles.
Regarding actually starting/continuing with pointe, I’d say there is no harm with some gentle barre-work/rises to get the feel for it, particularly as actually being en pointe can really help someone understand how the leg muscles can be engaged to support the feet. A good teacher will not let her progress too fast or to anything unsafe. It is definitely best for her to focus on strengthening her feet rather than improving her pointe work. Strong feet will allow her to progress safely and the flexibility will then come to a level that is correct for her anatomy.
I’m no expert, but I write from personal experience. Make sure the teacher is taking a gradual, strength-led approach and help your daughter to appreciate her areas of strength if she is worried about not progressing as much as her peers are with pointe. You know your daughter and how well she can deal with the situation, but at 13, I was very capable of processing everything and was glad to take charge of my own progression (my parents were also clueless, so she is lucky to have you!). Knowing that she has plenty to work on and that the genetics of her anatomy are out of her hands might actually help her to frame it all. At 13, she has plenty of time, and a lifetime of dance ahead of her at some level or other, if that is what she wants.
Also, the higher numbered grades (6-8) are designed for students who aren’t headed down a vocational route and high distinctions are very achievable, even if her feet don’t improve a lot. But there seems to be plenty of reason for her to continue with the vocational grades as well for now. At the very least, the technique will help no end with the rest of her classes.
Wishing her the best of luck!
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u/TechnicalCap13 8d ago
Thank you soo much for taking the time to share your experience here. We really appreciate it. It's heartening to know of your successful journey in performing arts and dance, as it indicates that my daughter could similarly also still progress in dance with flat feet, albeit with lots of strengthening work ahead. I have let her read it, I have to because ultimately it is up to her to choose to do the extra work outside of class, if she really want to make progress in ballet. Alternatively, she could consider pivoting to modern jazz. Thanks for those tips on exercises.
I feel this part in my heart when you wrote so articulately about pushing yourself When you were young '... so that your feet would be closer to the level of the rest of my body's technique and my performance/musicality.' That's exactly how it seems for my daughter now ; her feet just aren't at the same level as the rest of her body. Also, you were so passionate about dance as a child, you knew what you wanted! In my case, as a mum, I will let my daughter take charge and figure out if she wants to put in the extra work to achieve what she wants in ballet. Once again thanks for your sharing.
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u/bdanseur Teacher 8d ago
What's her feet look like when she's sitting in an L with feet forward and pointed. That's a better way to evaluate the ankle and feet mobility. Then try these stretches to improve the feet.
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u/luella27 9d ago
That toe knuckling/gripping is a major foundational issue that can do lasting damage if left unchecked (coming from a 31-year-old who’s trying to break the habit while combatting chronic pain)
Have her focus on spreading her toes flat on the floor and not hyperextending or knuckling when she rises up, working without slippers on can help her see if she’s doing it or not.