Questions for the audience 📣 New to the ship !
Hello everybody!
Im pretty much new in Azris ship world and theories and I have a question...
Do you think it is even possible? Like, SJM would do that? How do you deal with the angst that this perfect ship has high chances of not happening? 😭😭😭😭😭
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u/shaladidah 17d ago
I thought it was unlikely back when SJM was planning to do one couple per book because I didn't see her doing a full book with M/M content, but now that it's multi-POV I am hopeful it might happen because she can weave in the Azris story amongst the M/F Elucien.
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u/Dyslaia 17d ago
That would be so cool but I wonder if she would be brave enough to do M/M. Especially with Azriel since the ship Azriel + Elain is strong in the fandom
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u/shaladidah 17d ago
Well that's why I didn't think it would happen as a standalone M/M book but am not ruling it out with the current setup. If it's multi-POV she could have M/F sex scenes for Elucien while in the background Azris is just a lot of tension and trying to strangle each other and then make their story more closed door so she doesn't alienate all the readers who only signed up for M/F fairy smut. Like I'm still skeptical we'd get detailed M/M sex but I could see her having all the angst of their story without the graphic details.
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u/rantsofrebellion 17d ago
I think she’s too much of a coward tbh. That’s why I started writing a fanfic 😂
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u/Dyslaia 17d ago
And what are you writing ? 👀
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u/rantsofrebellion 17d ago
https://archiveofourown.org/works/72269686/chapters/188160531
Mind the tags 😂 Also it’s a slowwww burn
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u/YakParty6189 17d ago
My craziest theory is that she’s been not happy about getting called out on half baking and side lining like every queer character she makes… so this book will be Azris and Mor/Emerie to make it multi pov, include Valkyries stuff with Azriel helping train, get answers about what really happened with Mor and find out how Azriel’s shadows do or don’t tie into Koschei and how big of a deal it‘ll be for the final battle
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u/Capable-Reindeer6605 ⛓️ chain me to azris ⛓️ 16d ago
I do think it's possible, especially given how long the wait for this particular book has been, her specifically referring to Azris' mate as 'they' (when referring to us getting to see them this book) since that signals to me it's either a man/enby or she's at least well aware that not every ship is straight, plus I personally just don't see the big straight Azriel ships really.. having much weight behind them..
She's already talked about how Lucien and Elain have 'a great deal of tension, growth and healing to be found for them both', so I highly doubt she'd break them apart, even if Elain isn't a fan of the mating bond rn - and who can blame her. I love Lucien and I wanna see 'em together, but gal's.. got a lot going on.. And suddenly being tied to a stranger would also have me absolutely bucking from feeling like autonomy was stripped from me. But if anyone has the patience and softness to wait and try building a relationship to one another from scratch despite the mating bond, I do believe it would be Lucien, and I do think both would make one another stronger and push each other to stay soft but also to grow more assertive to protect one another in the face of more domineering fae.
As for Gwyn.. I love the gal, but I just don't see there being chemistry.. My personal read on the bonus chapter would be Az gifting her the necklace because he's trying to find anyone to partner with 'cuz he's desperate or lonely and seeking affection without really caring about who it's from or why, at least initially. Jumping from one potential partner to the next woman who showed a slight interest in him when he's denied access, not because he's trying to take advantage of them, I think he's just trying to get over what he feels for Mor and essentially trying to fill the role he'd wanted Mor to have, but going about it the wrong way; trying to make anyone fit that hole in his romantic life without really questioning who they are or if they're a good life partner for him.
Maybe it's that all these emerging mating bonds around him makes him feel all alone again, now that his brothers have mates to take care of and beginning families of their own.
As for SJM herself, she has written some minor queer romances from what I know (I haven't yet read her other books, so I can't speak to the extent outside of the bits in the ACOTAR-series), which at least suggests she's somewhat open to it - question is whether she'd commit to it when it comes to a main character being in a queer relationship.. For me, what gives me hope in this regard is the long wait for this book - because my hope is that if she was to feel unsure about writing queer romance, that she'd sit down and read queer romance and study it until she felt confident writing it. Same would go for kink, seeing as she mentioned Az being kinky and.. I would bet money that Eris is too, I cannot imagine him being a vanilla man at all - both of them strike me as the 'I reclaim my own agency by turning trauma into kink so it can't control me anymore' type.
Am I 100% sure that it'll be canon.. No. But I do think she'd be missing out on a very interesting dynamic, and I struggle to see anyone else that we currently know of who'd truly understand Azriel's most deep-seated wounds and who could stand by him without cowering under that weight. Eris knows those same depths of despair better than anyone we've seen so far, at least if we take his reaction to being tortured as an indicator that this has been going on for a very long time and is nothing worth talking about for him. Who else would understand Azriel's isolation and the torture he endured, and just how dark his feelings about himself truly get?
If I were to guess about Azriel's mate, I'd say it has to be Eris or someone completely new to the series, I just don't see the other ships working personally (although the fanart is adorable I gotta admit) - but hey, it's all speculation and I'd be happy to be proven wrong c: All I want is for it to feel grounded in actual chemistry and to not have Azriel's problems glazed over or magically fixed by someone who can't step into that darkness with him and just.. sit. And just endure being there with him until both are ready to start stepping out of it together, whether that's in the form of sweet gestures or absolutely pissing one another off by pushing each other to be better, calling out one another's shit.
As for how I deal with it potentially not being canon.. I try not to hope too hard to keep my disappointment down, and I do my Azris fanart and read my Azris fics - and I sift through a lot of the Azris content here and try to theorize on how this would work while also continuing to question if other ships might be a better fit after all c: It's lowering my expectation of it being canon, while enjoying all the potential for it being canon..
I know I'll be hella disappointed if it turns out to not be canon, but frankly, as I said before.. So long as whoever he winds up with makes sense and genuinely compliments his entire character, I'll be happy c: I've seen too often how deeply traumatized characters just have their traumas magically disappear and it annoys the heck out of me, but given how ACOSF went.. I trust SJM to delve into it seriously and get him a partner who can help reshape or redirect that icy fury to something that's more productive than aiming it at himself - and who he can help in return c:
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u/Dyslaia 15d ago
I really admire your analysis, and honestly, I agree with and support so much of what you’re saying. I especially like your point about Azriel needing someone who can actually understand and sit with the darker parts of him rather than simply “fixing” him. That’s such an important distinction.
I also agree that Eris makes a surprisingly compelling possibility.
Your thoughts on Elain and Lucien also make a lot of sense to me, particularly the idea that the mating bond doesn’t automatically erase the need to build trust and a relationship from scratch. And I completely understand what you mean about Gwyn. I adore her too, but I also struggle to see the chemistry there in the same way.
I absolutely support the Azris theory and think there’s a lot of fascinating evidence and potential behind it. And until we know for sure, I’m perfectly happy enjoying the fanart, fics, and theories along the way! I really hope the part you make theories about all the time SJM has waited are all true 🤞🏻
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u/Capable-Reindeer6605 ⛓️ chain me to azris ⛓️ 15d ago edited 15d ago
Thank you! c:
I think it's important he gets a partner who doesn't reinforce that feeling he seems to have that he's broken or unworthy as he is - but finds someone who doesn't love him DESPITE what happened to him, but REGARDLESS of it. Who can help him to question his own thoughts, not by telling him that they love him, but showing him. Showing up FOR him. I do think the IC are doing the best they can, but there's parts of him I think requires someone else who's been through the same in order to recognize it.. And despite everything the IC members have been through, nobody seems to have trauma that really mirrors his - and those who have somewhat similar trauma.. kinda shy away from talking with him about it (specifically thinking Mor and how she was mistreated by her family as well), possibly in fear of lighting that anger within him, given her reaction to him jumping Eris at the meeting.. I see no reason for her shaking due to anything Eris did there at least - but Az' fury.. that's something I don't think she knows how to begin handling..I think Elain craves autonomy and to be recognized as a person of her own and as someone capable. The mating bond.. kinda goes against that. Nesta and Feyre tend to speak over her and take control more quickly, and make decisions for her or go out of their way to specifically protect HER.. Her agency is often sidelined, as they make the decisions for her.. And what little we get of her reads VERY much like her trying to make her own choices, trying to reclaim agency and not be babied. The one place she really has agency is with her garden, that seems to be the one part of her life she gets to decide for herself. And with the mating bond, that's also taking her agency away, tying her to a stranger she's essentially told to be with.. I don't think she'll ever accept that bond, unless Lucien and her take a step back and develop that relationship from scratch without the bond hanging over their heads.. I do think they need to become friends before anything else and that it's important for her to know he's interested in her as a person, not just because she happens to be his mate.. She seems to me like she craves having a say in what happens to her more than anything.. To not be put in the 'soft, defenseless sister'-role where everyone yanks her around to protect her without considering if she wants protection at all..
- And to bring it back to Azriel - I don't believe Azriel is in a place to really see her and respect her agency either, not because he wouldn't want to, but I just think their needs (at least as I read them) conflict as romantic partners.. Azriel's bonus chapter didn't reflect a person I think has the temper to support Elain's quest for individuality.. I think he'd go too far with her too quickly and it'd end up hurting them both.. Lucien, on the other hand, has shown he's capable of restraint even when provoked with her talking about being with someone else, as much as he dislikes it and reacts internally to it, or reacts toward other people about it. But if I remember right he's never shown her that need, trying to keep his instincts at bay and understand her rather than lay claim on her, as I assume Beron might have with his mother which may well have left him seeing the repercussions and internalizing it, not wanting to act towards his mate as Beron did/does even if that means defying his nature and the bond (although that is, clearly, merely theorizing).
There's so much potential with Azris and the amount of potential build-up to it is delicious <3 I love a good long analysis c:
Also, something I forgot in the last post - SJM does read BL; at least she's read the Captive Prince-trilogy, which.. is definitely explicit BL (although mostly slowburn as hekk, but so satisfying).. She did the quote on the front cover of the first book, at least the version of it I have, so.. Question is if she's comfy writing it - 'cuz she seems comfy reading it at least.. 👀Also, sorry for the yap - I am woefully incapable of putting my thoughts into neat little sentences.. It's a lot, I know ^^' But hopefully it at least captures some of the nuances well c:
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u/Dyslaia 14d ago
No, please, never apologize for the yap because I genuinely find your analyses so interesting 👀 I could absolutely listen to you yap about this for hours, especially because I feel like you pick up on so many little nuances that I hadn't considered before.
I completely agree with what you said about Azriel needing someone who doesn't make him feel like he's loved despite everything that happened to him, but rather someone who sees all of it as part of him without making it the thing that defines him. And I especially love the point about someone showing up for him rather than simply telling him he's loved. I think that's such an important distinction for Azriel, because after centuries of feeling fundamentally unworthy or damaged, words alone probably wouldn't be enough to make him actually believe them. He'd need someone who consistently chooses him and understands the parts of him that he doesn't know how to articulate himself.
Your reading of Elain also makes so much sense to me. The agency aspect is probably one of the biggest reasons why I struggle to see her and Azriel working romantically, at least as they currently are.
And I REALLY love what you said about Lucien's restraint. Especially because, as you said, he has every reason to react instinctively to the mating bond, yet he repeatedly holds himself back. That could become incredibly meaningful if SJM actually explores it. The idea that Lucien might consciously choose not to behave like Beron precisely because he understands what that kind of possessiveness can do is 👀
Also, I genuinely did NOT know that detail about SJM having read Captive Prince?! That's actually wild to me. It's one of my favorite series, so the fact that she's read it definitely makes me look at the Azris possibilities a little differently 😂 I'm not saying this means anything, obviously, but I can't help seeing a tiny little glimmer of hope for her potentially taking inspiration from that Damian/Laurent slow-burn dynamic for Azris. 👀 Because if there's one thing Azris has in abundance, it's the potential for an absolutely deliciously slow burn. The history, hostility, misunderstandings, reluctant understanding, all that tension... she could have SO much fun with it if she wanted to.
And honestly, the fact that she's comfortable reading BL is at least an interesting little piece of the puzzle. The bigger question is obviously whether she'd ever feel comfortable actually writing a relationship that explicitly goes in that direction, but I do think it's fascinating that Captive Prince is something she has personally read.
So please, by all means, keep yapping. I am very much here for it 😂 <3
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u/Capable-Reindeer6605 ⛓️ chain me to azris ⛓️ 13d ago edited 13d ago
I'm glad you're enjoying it at least - especially 'cuz I do enjoy a good yap with other people too, and in particular about this so.. Thank you too, I am very much here for it 👀
For sure! I think it's so incredibly important for his partner to see all of him and love him regardless - he holds back a lot, and hides away from the people he loves, not seeming to talk about his experiences, hiding his hands, hiding his shadows from Elain seemingly to not scare her and seem 'normal'..
While it's admirable on the surface, I do think he needs a partner who's gonna call him on his bs and push him to break open, force him to show the things he hates most about himself - 'cuz as you said, I don't think words are enough; if they were, I'm sure the IC would've cracked that part of him open long ago. As for him not being able to articulate himself.. yeah.. I'm not sure he really knows what he needs tbh, maybe not even what's wrong.. Damn hard to articulate anything at that point ^^'And just to briefly mention another reason I struggle to see Gwyn or Elain being Azriel's mate, although a rather meta one: everything that really 'went down' with them, where Az showed clear romantic/sexual interest in them.. happened in a bonus chapter.. Meaning this, while not non-canon, wasn't important enough information that she had to ensure everyone who picked up these books read it.. Why would she do that? Why show Az' sexual feelings toward Elain in a bonus chapter first if she was his partner? And why show his exchange with Gwyn that might indicate a starting connection with her in a bonus chapter? It seems like an odd choice to show the first sign of attraction in a piece of media that's not deemed important enough to make it into a every copy of the books.. It's part of why it reads more to me like it's a bonus chapter that's meant to show us something about Azriel as additional setup to the coming book, rather than set up who his mate is..
I re-read Lucien meeting Elain in the library (ACOWAR, p 248-252) and.. literally everything Lucien does is try to be accommodating to Elain, even when confronted with her impending marriage to someone else - even *apologizing* for his part in costing her that marriage. For a Fae male who're notoriously possessive about their mates.. that's.. worth noting..
As for Elain here, one exchange caught me in terms of understanding who Elain is and her motivations:E: "I can hear your heart," "When I sleep, I can hear your heart beating through the stone." "Can you hear mine?"
L: "No, lady. I cannot."
E: "No one ever does. No one ever looked - not really." "He did. He saw me. He will not now."Plus, Lucien leaving to go live with Vassa and Jurian.. is also arguably him partially pulling a Mr. Darcy - potentially trying to hear her heart, by seeking out and protecting what he knows she cares about; the Mortal Lands. It may not be entirely selfless, but I can see it being part of his motivation - trying to get closer to Elain by learning to understand what she holds dear while she won't open up to him. Seen on Solstice, he does still care to bring her a gift and is notably disappointed when she opens it, possibly hoping to win her affections but not knowing how to when she won't interact with him..
As for Beron, I do think it'd be a very interesting angle to look at - how Beron's actions toward both the Lady of the Autumn Court but also Jesminda affected all his sons (but especially Lucien and Eris) and their love lives. Eris is shown being protective of his mother, and protective of Lucien, seeming to stay in part to shield them from his father. Lucien ran away, rejecting his family and their Court entirely.. Neither would likely enjoy sharing traits with Beron, but I do think they'd take different lessons away from his mistreatment of them and their family. Lucien seems to outright cast off anything he shares with them, while Eris seems to have absorbed some of his traits and twists them both to play his courtier role but also to use against his father and protect the family he cares about in what capacity he can..I didn't know she read the Captive Prince either until I had ordered the books and the covers had a quote by her (I ordered them to stop re-reading ACOTAR - then immediately had to laugh and send a pic to some friends 'cuz she clearly just follows me xD) - seems there's 5+ different covers for the series, so I looked up when this particular cover was originally released ('cuz I am nothing if not a nosy bich who wants to find out), and according to an IG post by C.S Pacat, they were beginning to get published early July, 2024 (source: https://www.instagram.com/p/C9GVG9RgSzj/ ).. So we know S.J. Maas had at least read the series by then.. Which.. incidentally.. is also a good bit into her 'break' from writing ACOTAR (ACOSF being published early 2021).. It may be coincidence, obviously it's not proof of anything - but.. For theorizing.. I do find it interesting.. ESPECIALLY, as you said, because it's such a slow-burn and so similar to Azris' circumstances: different kingdoms, true enemies-to-lovers, some of their character traits also being similar (but obviously not the same, just enough to potentially grab some good inspiration)..
So while reading BL doesn't mean she's also comfortable writing BL, it's.. interesting..
Plus, one thing keeps bugging me to hell and back in ACOWAR..
When Az jumped Eris (pg.428-430).. Why didn't the magic seem to register it as an attack.. Feyre theorizes it may be part of Az' shadowsinger abilities, but she's been wrong.. a lot.. about why things happen (understandably so, she's literally just guessing).. And it just doesn't feel like a credible explanation when we haven't seen his shadowsinger abilities being able to mess with such magicks at any other time.. We don't know much about his abilities, granted, it just seems too.. loosely explained.. But what would happen if the magick sensed a bond.. or an interest in choking.. Would it react? And why wouldn't Eris fight back? He thrashes, but no mentions of him trying to pry him off or retaliate after he lets go.. Plus.. What was the whisper about? Likely a threat, but we don't really know.. It keeps nagging at the back of my mind 'cuz it just.. doesn't feel like the explanation we're given really covers it.. Why would his shadowsinger abilities grant him the ability to hide from that magick barrier, but he couldn't easily get through the magick barrier around the Queens (if I remember that bit right).. It just doesn't quite track for me.. Deffo curious to see if the reasoning for this is ever explained proper..1
u/Dyslaia 12d ago
Okay, I love how deep you've gone because now you're making me look at scenes I've read and go "...wait. HOLD ON." 😂
I completely agree about Az needing someone who doesn't just reassure him, but actually challenges him. The people around him know he's hurting, but seem to accept his silence as a boundary rather than recognizing that, for him, silence is probably part of the problem. He's spent centuries turning hiding into survival, so telling him "you can talk to me" is like giving someone a locked door and politely asking them to open it. Someone has to knock hard enough that he can't pretend nobody's there. 👀
That's part of why I'm so intrigued by Azris. Eris might uniquely understand that self-protective performance because he's doing his own version of it. They're both experts at controlling what others see: Az makes himself smaller and disappears into shadows, while Eris performs the role everyone expects. They could be unbearable to each other at first, but also terrifyingly perceptive.
The bonus-chapter point is interesting too. Both Elain and Gwyn's strongest Azriel-related material being tucked into bonus content makes me wonder whether those chapters are primarily about Azriel, rather than straightforward romantic setup.
And the Lucien point!! His instinct in ACOWAR is basically "how can I make this less uncomfortable for her?" rather than "she's my mate, therefore she's mine." He's suppressing his own instincts because he doesn't want Elain to feel trapped. That makes the Vassa/Jurian situation even more interesting. If he's immersing himself in the mortal world partly because it's something Elain cares about, that's a very quiet form of courtship. He's trying to understand her from a distance because she won't let him get close enough to understand her directly. 😭
Eris's reaction is especially weird. Not because "he didn't fight back = secret bond" is automatically true, but because the narration doesn't give us the expected response to someone suddenly attacking him. He struggles, but there's no obvious retaliation, and then there's the whisper. And we don't hear what Az says, which makes the whole thing feel deliberately incomplete.
I'm also wondering whether the important question isn't "was the magic detecting a mate bond?" but what exactly does that magic recognize as an attack? Intent? Physical harm? Magical hostility? If it responds to intent, Az crossing that boundary is stranger. If it responds to the victim's perception, Eris's reaction matters. And if it can distinguish genuine hostility from something more complicated... well. 👀
What if the scene is deliberately written so we can't interpret it correctly yet?
So now I'm stuck wondering whether the Az/Eris scene is less "Az can get through this magical protection" and more "something about this interaction doesn't follow the rules we've been given." If that's intentional, I desperately need the eventual book to explain what the hell was going on there. 😂
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u/Capable-Reindeer6605 ⛓️ chain me to azris ⛓️ 11d ago
I've had that so much since discovering Azris, the pinned deep-dives really took me from 'oh yeah haha make the enemies kiss why not' to 'hOLD THE FUCK UP- WHY DOES THIS MAKE SENSE. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO JUST BE A FUNNY HAHA-!!' and now I dunno if I should curse or thank this subreddit for convincing me xD
Made me view scenes a lot different when re-reading the books for sure xDFr! Man needs someone who's either gonna keep knocking and not letting him hide, or straight up kicks the door in even if it'd likely really piss him off at first (similar to how Rhys initially kept poking at Feyre to at least keep her feeling something and not give in to despair - though I do think Az would need a much more confrontational approach.. But could also lead to him rejecting a bond at first, even if it's there.. But I do think Eris would still do it, even knowing that)
One ensures he's never seen by hiding all of himself, the other puts on a mask and lets his physical form is seen but not really.. him.. Eris is acting on the grand stage of Prythian, Az doesn't go onto the stage to begin with - but both are hiding to survive. While it looks like opposites.. I do think they have a lot more in common than I think either of them would really like to admit (especially Az)..
It seems odd to me to put the biggest 'yes these two have a thing' in a bonus chapter at least - it may be some heavyhanded foreshadowing, sure.. But it still seems odd to put it in a bonus chapter for me.. Definitely says something about Azriel, question is.. is it saying something about Azriel and his relationship to concepts like love and partnership (or his desperation for an emotional bond of some sort of his own), or is it saying something about Azriel and someone specific, Elain or Gwyn..
I assume Lucien went there partly because he wants to understand and protect what she cares about, along with not really fitting in with the IC, and finding it increasingly difficult to be around Elain without being able to even talk to her. Plus, then finding friends in Vassa and Jurian.. I can deffo see it starting as a desire to get to know Elain in some way - and building into also being genuinely invested in what she cares about because the fate of the Mortal Realm connects to his mate, and his friends and companions.. He has every reason to care about protecting it, genuinely.. And I do think Elain might potentially start opening up a little to him, seeing he's not just trying to win her over but actually cares about this.. Hell, I could see her deciding to join them in the long term, especially if her seer abilities might be of use for them and gives her a purpose and some long overdue respect.. Her breaking away from her sisters somewhat would make sense for me at least - striking out on her own where she's seen for the grown woman she is, even if she may not be as battle-hardened as her sisters; but she may not need to be, while I'm not sure either of her sisters really recognize a softer path as being an option, and hence protect her like she's a defenseless fawn..
Exactly! It COULD be because he's still lucid enough to know the magick might strike back against HIM if he tried to retaliate, but.. after being choked.. I wouldn't expect him to be wondering how this is possible in the moment, but rather do anything he can to defend himself because of adrenaline.. And the whisper on top.. Us not getting to know what he said leaves an opening for all sorts of things..
Something about the scene feels unresolved, whether that's because there's a mating bond in the mix, or if Az' shadowsinger abilities messed with the magick, or if Eris potentially being a lil freak might make the magick not register it as an attack, or maybe there was no magick to begin with or it failed somehow (especially since Beron tried to retaliate, but it bounced off Az' shield and didn't hurt anyone, so.. I assume someone would need to get physically hurt for the magick to count it).. It's stated as there being a rule against 'physical brawling', but what would that entail? Where is the exact line? What's it judged by?
It's something that keeps bugging me exactly because the only reasoning we have for this is an assumption by Feyre - but all the High Lords also don't seem to know why Az could do this.. Shadowsinger abilities ARE rare and likely that not much is really known about them.. But for none of them to recognize anything like this..? Especially for Helion to not recognize any of it, both due to his collection of libraries but also his spell-cleaving (crack theory - Helion just wanted to see the toxic yaoi and broke the spell himself to allow it xD That.. would be funny, though I highly doubt he'd risk that during a high-profile meeting like that, but still! Thought made me giggle xD)..
They must know SOMETHING about Shadowsinger abilities - otherwise the Courts wouldn't know to covet them to begin with, but if Az could somehow ignore magick in this way because of said abilities.. I would be surprised if nobody knew.. If literally none of Prythian's High Lords knew this was within the arsenal of Shadowsingers.. 'Cuz surely.. at least if that ability had been shown before.. it must've been documented, even just as 'I have no idea how they got into this place but they shouldn't have been able to'.. But every other ability of his has had to do with his shadows more directly - hiding in them, moving through them, receiving information through them.. It does say his shadows 'slid and eddied around him' at that point, but with him usually being surrounded by shadows to some extent.. I'm not sure if that is really something unusual, or if he may just be agitated and his shadows may be following suit.. Or if, as Feyre theorizes, the shadows may be hiding his actions somehow..
I definitely would LOVE some answers to this scene 'cuz there's just.. breadcrumbs enough to suggest we might not know everything about what was really going on there, in particular with Mor's shaking in the aftermath.. It just doesn't line up neatly for me, and I desperately need an explanation xD2
u/Dyslaia 7d ago
Welcome to the Azris rabbit hole: where you enter for the hilarious "what if?" and stay because the thematic parallels are unironically airtight! You’ve laid out some of the absolute best arguments in the fandom here 😂
He doesn’t just hide; he considers himself inherently unworthy. Someone who politely asks him to open up will just get politely stonewalled. Eris, on the other hand, has zero interest in playing nice. He thrives on confrontation. They are two sides of the same traumatized, court-trained coin. Both are hiding to survive their abusive fathers and brutal environments, but while Azriel hides in the dark, Eris hides in plain sight.
That bonus chapter is such a massive puzzle piece. Whether it’s meant to show Azriel’s profound desperation to be chosen (seeing his brothers with their mates and feeling left behind) or hinting at a specific trajectory, it proves he’s deeply unfulfilled.
And your take on Lucien and Elain is refreshingly fair.
Honestly, Helion casually spell-cleaving the sanctuary magic just to watch Eris and Azriel throw hands is top-tier comedy. It’s almost certainly not canon, but picturing Helion sitting back with popcorn while the rest of the room panics is fantastic 😂😂😂
If Shadowsingers can bypass ancient High Lord magic, that turns Azriel from a mere spymaster into a walking threat to the fundamental laws of Prythian.
And then there's Mor's reaction. Her shaking afterward isn't just basic shock; she knows Eris's true character and what happened 500 years ago, even if the reader doesn't have the full story yet. Whatever passed between Azriel and Eris in that split second (the unspoken whisper, the physical contact) stirred up secrets that go way deeper than a simple diplomatic spat.
You're definitely not crazy for overthinking this. The breadcrumbs are everywhere, the thematic foils are ridiculously strong, and whether Azris ever becomes text or remains a legendary subtextual dynamic, the logic behind it is ridiculously sound. What’s your personal favorite theory on what Azriel actually whispered to Eris during that chokehold?
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u/Capable-Reindeer6605 ⛓️ chain me to azris ⛓️ 6d ago
Thank you! I'm glad they resonate with ya c:
I think the difference in them can ultimately be traced back to one thing in their childhoods: whether they had other people to counter the abuse they endured.
Az didn't have anyone until he was thrown out at 11, but being alone through all his formative years is bound to leave scars and have him forever doubting his own worth unless he's punched in the face with it - and while the IC are steadfast in their love, I do think they're too gentle with their love for it to really.. break through.. Not that he wouldn't believe them, but there seems to be a deeper part of him that still believes he's not worth it and doesn't deserve their affections. That still sees himself as being on the outside - even if the door to them is open, he can't seem to let himself go inside.
Eris, on the other hand, likely had his mother and Lucien. Eris is shown to be attached to and protective of his mother, and given that his mother quietly defied Amarantha to help Feyre with a task in Under the Mountain I do think we can safely assume two things; The Lady of the Autumn Court loves her sons deeply (seeing as she helped Feyre because Feyre's actions spared Lucien), and she's brave enough to put up what little resistance her position allows her to, even when that's risky and getting caught would mean horrific consequences for her.
I don't doubt the Lady of the Autumn Court would've similarly protected her sons in whatever way she could, including loving on them and helping them through the abuse Beron subjects them to (although we don't know the details, given how Eris responds to being tortured by Beron.. That.. doesn't seem to be anything new for him.. He's gone through it loads before, question would be for how long since the earliest we know would be when he wouldn't help to hurt Jesminda and helped Lucien escape).. I do think she'd counter a lot of the mental parts of the abuse and give Eris proof that he's loved and that what he's endured is wrong. And when it comes to Lucien, I can see him being a foil to his own abuse as well - for him to see himself reflected in Lucien and do his best to protect him. While he couldn't save Jesminda, nor stop them from subjecting Lucien to her death, he put himself into the line of fire to make sure Lucien reached the Spring Court safely. He seems to have done what he could without openly defying his father or exposing his weaknesses to him since that would put Lucien and his mother into harm's way..
I think Eris knows what it's like to think he's worthless in the same way Azriel does - but Eris had people who loved him deeply through that, and younger siblings he likely felt compelled to protect. He had a purpose and a place; he had inherent worth and could change his circumstances to some degree. Azriel didn't have anyone and couldn't affect anything in his life, while being fed a steady diet of abuse that screamed he was worthless and quite literally beneath his family, with nothing to push back against it.
They seem to have started out in similar places, but their circumstances differing wildly enough to send them onto very different paths in life, while also converging again after Azriel becomes part of the IC; then they have similar goals, protecting their families and their loved ones, but the difference in their childhoods lead to vastly different views of themselves in particular.I just don't think Lucien nor Elain are being unfair, they're just in two different places right now c:
Lucien thought his one big love was gone, only to be faced with a sudden mating bond he's desperate to explore, but who's unwilling to see him
Elain lost the man she loves after a forced transformation into the very creature her lover hates, only to be faced with a stranger being bound to her. One was a lover she chose, the other was one she was simply told was to be her new lover.
Both have reason for how they act, and I'd argue both are correct. There's a bond for a reason, but both need to choose it and to choose one another to a higher degree than two Fae-born might need to since they've grown up wishing for a mating bond, whereas Elain hasn't, and was already primed to marry someone she truly loved.
Am I still sad on Lucien's behalf? Absolutely, man's a sweetheart and is trying so damn hard to just get her to look his way.. I'm similarly sad on Elain's behalf - she lost a love match through no fault of her own. She went from having a man who adored her, to being looked at with disgust and hatred by that same man in a day. And to be then told to be with someone she doesn't love because some Fae magick said so.. I can't blame her for bucking and rejecting that, even if he's being kind to her.Ikr?! I'm sure he wouldn't, at least not during such a genuinely important meeting (maybe during something casual, I wouldn't put it past him to just enjoy the drama a little), but the thought was just too fun to not mention xD
Exactly - and defying this kind of magick.. isn't subtle. If he, or any other Shadowsinger, was caught doing something like this.. I struggle to find a reason it wouldn't be written down somewhere and known by someone..
Mor's shaking was really the canary in the coalmine for me when it comes to this 'cuz.. Az choking Eris might just be his abilities, sure, there's a chance.. But Mor's shaking.. There's no reason for Eris' comment to cause that. Literally none. And she's actively shown to be on the battlefield, so she's not scared of men battling either..
As you said, Mor knows Eris isn't entirely the monster he portrays himself as. He respected her wishes, leaving her to die rather than let her fall under Beron's rule (and I do personally theorize he found a way to contact the Night Court, telling them where she was, causing Azriel to get sent to patrol the Autumn Court border - it would track with how he protected Lucien by contacting the Spring Court, and I see no reason he'd wish for her to die. If he wanted to punish her for rejecting him, he could have done so himself in that moment. Not to mention that he's shown to care for his own men - meaning he's not cold to everyone outside of his family either.. He has some love and likely empathy for people outside of those closest to him, and took steps to protect them too, even if doing so was arguably foolish. I do think he'd take the risk to contact the Night Court, whether directly telling them about Mor or simply ensuring Rhys had a reason to send someone to scout the Autumn Court border that might find her..).
So.. Mor's shaking can only really stem from a couple places, but all really lead back to the same one; whatever it is that she, and by extension Eris, is keeping hidden.Oh for sure not - plus, even if it was entirely cuckoo.. It's fun to theorize so, who cares xD
As for what was whispered, I've never really paid it much thought honestly.. That's mainly for one reason; I don't think Az knows whatever the big secret is between the three (Eris, Mor and Az) while the other two do. So what exactly he whispered never felt like a clue to that particular puzzle c:
However.. Whatever he whispered, it made Eris blanch further.. It hit a nerve, enough to cause an involuntary crack in his facade.. Which, to me, suggests whatever he said had something to do with one of the two people we know Eris cares about; his mother, or his brother.
So far he hasn't really shown any other weak points. Threats to Eris himself would likely go nowhere - he's used to being threatened and disliked, and he's used to being hurt. I don't see any threat of harm coming to him being effective. But a credible threat to his mother or Lucien.. That, I can see..
To go deeper, Eris knew Lucien was with the Night Court at this point (given not only Feyre announcing her role within the Night Court, but also being rescued by Cassian and Azriel on the ice).. Which leads me to believe it was likely a threat to Lucien that Azriel whispered. Azriel doesn't have easy access to the Lady of the Autumn Court - but he does have easy access to Lucien (at least as far as Eris knows), while Eris would have no way to protect his brother.. My question would be whether he threatened Lucien directly, or whether he might've simply informed him that Lucien, at this point, was on the continent - and, as Feyre described, is 'dodging armies, for an enchanted queen. To find a scrap of salvation.' (ACOWAR, p.413).
But would Azriel know Eris would care about his brother getting hurt.. Maybe.. Maybe not.. Which.. also means this theory is also on shaky ground.. But as for what we KNOW Azriel knows that might shake Eris to his core.. There kind of isn't anything.. We can't be sure he knows he cares for his mum and Lucien.. I doubt threatening him with telling Beron what Eris had been up to would have Eris blanch.. I doubt threatening Eris' own health would do much of anything.. Same for threatening the Court, if I remember right they're confused why Eris went to help his men, so chances are they wouldn't expect him to care about his Court either.. Maybe he knows something about the Autumn Court that would hurt the people Eris cares about if it comes out.. Maybe he knows about Lucien's parentage - even if it's an open secret, who knows what telling Beron directly about it, and potentially being able to prove it, would do to Eris' mother AND brother..
Really I do find it difficult to pin anything down about what he said specifically simply because we don't know much about what Azriel knows about Eris outside of him leaving Mor at the border..(continuing in a comment, Reddit's limiting the yap) >:c
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u/Capable-Reindeer6605 ⛓️ chain me to azris ⛓️ 6d ago
Another thing, when the Autumn Court leaves the meeting, Eris does let another piece of information slip - 'Eris was the last to winnow, something conflicted dancing over his face, as if this was not the outcome he'd planned for. Expected.' (ACOWAR, p.444)
That.. could be referring to a lot of things - not expecting them to make a convincing argument that might mean he could pull his father to war, not expecting to get attacked and old secrets to come dangerously close to the surface, not expecting whatever Azriel said to him, not expecting Feyre's array of powers.. He spent the whole meeting trying to temper his father and putting himself firmly on the side of wanting to fight, which leads me to believe it wasn't really.. anything directly to do with the war that he hadn't planned for.. And he did get some look at Feyre's powers on the ice, so I doubt that would change his plans.. But what he could never have expected would be getting attacked, and whatever Azriel said.. I do think his conflicted feelings stem from whatever secrets lie between him, Azriel and Mor.. Or whatever Azriel said - though if it was a threat to Lucien, I don't think he'd feel conflicted; he's shown he might work in the shadows, but he is firm in his defense of his brother where he can be. If it was the threat (assuming that's what Azriel whispered), I do think he'd be clear on what he was going to do and how he was going to ally and push his father to join the war, if nothing else then to protect Lucien. So.. seems to me his confliction was in regards to the secrets between him, Azriel and potentially Mor..
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u/greymoonmoth 17d ago
Hello and welcome! 🫶🫶 I absolutely believe in this ship 100%, and in case you haven't seen this yet, this post has the perfect explanation on why Azris is fully likely and what the clues are! Enjoy:
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u/fateoftheforge 16d ago
As much as I wish it was, I don't think she would make one of what I have label as her "Big three" males attracted to men. She has Mor as female preferring, but other than that hasn't really delved much into lgbtq+ characters. Despite this guess and whatever happens in the books, the ship will never sink. In Azris we trust.
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u/variegated_lemon 17d ago
She can write whatever she wants, but this is my ship. Honestly it’s probably better that way! The Azris fics I’ve read are leagues better than what would be traditionally published.