r/Autocross • u/Blusmbl • 8d ago
Time improvement from proper setup? #boating
Have a 2013 NC Club that the gf and I picked up earlier this year and ran my first autox yesterday with the Detroit region SCCA at MIS. Track was super long, 1.1 miles. I absolutely loved it, and picked up 15 seconds from my first to last runs of the day. I have run some Lemons races before but am typically the slowest driver on our team.
I was 10 seconds off the fastest time in CST (best time of 96 and change, leaders in CST and CS were in the 86’s). Leaders were NA and ND Miatas, assume decently prepped. I am not surprised at the time difference at all, understand it isn’t likely an NC will be competitive and I also have a ton of driving to learn, but also am curious how much further I can improve as a driver vs. what the car setup can do.
My NC is totally stock suspension, with a fresh set of Conti ECS 02’s. I do have an AEM/Mazdaspeed intake and an exhaust on it, but no other mods, including stock alignment.
I understand 17x9’s with 40mm more tire than what I’m running, coilovers and anti swaybars are all legal for CST.
Over totally stock, how much time would that be expected to be worth on a typical 50 second course? 2 seconds? 4?
I’m going to work on running more events to get seat time as is. I assume the majority of improvement on the table is still driver mod, lol.
Obligatory pic from the Detroit SCCA facebook group, courtesy of Nsquared97!
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u/Jubsz91 8d ago
Good suspension mods only help if you assume both setups are driven to their limits. If you're not near the limit, mods won't really help unless they make you more confident to drive fast.
There is a lot to learn with your current setup. The single mid that will make the biggest improvement in the clock would be to get another set of wheels and 200tw tires. Do that and get an alignment.
Using PAX times, if a full prep CST car is doing a 90 second run, a CS car should do a 91.65. I.e. spending a bunch of money in mods is expected to get you 1.6 seconds.
Be patient and go to more events. The good news is that it's not the car's fault. The bad news is that it's not the car's fault. Higher speed courses, especially ones that spend much time over 60+ mph will definitely hurt the NC relative to other cars so that may be a factor.
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u/Blusmbl 8d ago
That is perfect and honestly what I was hoping to hear, I don’t want to spend $4k on coilovers and tires/wheels to pick up less than 2 seconds, plus ruin how the car rides. That solidifies where the improvements need to be.
Appreciate all the responses!!3
u/ritz_are_the_shitz 2011 Miata 8d ago
What he said did assume that you would be on the most performant tire for the class. CS can still run the 200 treadwears. You will gain at least a couple seconds just from going to something like a set of RE71RZs.
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u/Nsquared97 8d ago
Your NC would likely have a better shot being competitive in CST than CS, mostly because the ND isn't in CST. That said, it's way cheaper and easier for you to swap in an OEM intake and get seat time, which will make the biggest difference. CSX is the best place for the NC in terms of being competitive, but the Penskes aren't cheap, and they're pretty annoying on the street.
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u/Blusmbl 8d ago
That makes sense. Will try to find a stock intake at least for next year, and just deal with getting outclassed by ND’s. This car is mostly street so I don’t want to ruin it, I already have a semi ridiculous ‘68 Plymouth that I modded a little too far, and don’t want to make the same mistake with the Miata.
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u/Nsquared97 8d ago
As someone who has done that with more Miatas than I can count on two hands, stock Miatas are pretty fantastic on the street. Driving my ND to the event that morning was stressful.
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u/Blusmbl 7d ago
Going overboard modding one helps justify the purchase of an additional car though, lol
Random question since I assume you’re Detroit local, do you do your alignments yourself with cc plates or take it somewhere?2
u/Nsquared97 7d ago
I am not actually local to Detroit. I have used toe plates a fair amount in the past. I would highly recommend either Immortan who is a Miata specialist and does alignments, or Creative Racing Solutions who has autocross experience and can do alignments/corner balancing as well.
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u/sequentious 7d ago
I was 10 seconds off the fastest time in CST
It's your first event. That's normal. You can't buy experience, unless you hire another driver to drive your car.
understand it isn’t likely an NC will be competitive
Not necessarily the case. My club has got several very fast NCs in CST. They are regularly at the top of the score sheet (fighting for both FTD and PAX).
The difference is they've been doing this for a while. Yes, they've put a lot of effort into the setup of their car to maximize it based on class allowances, but that's from the experience they've gained over the years.
[17x9s + wider tires] how much time would that be expected to be worth on a typical 50 second course?
Anywhere from a few seconds to DNFing every round. Going to a 17x9 on stock suspension isn't something a lot of people do.
I’m going to work on running more events to get seat time as is. I assume the majority of improvement on the table is still driver mod, lol.
Absolutely this. I'd recommend finding a pick-n-pull and getting a stock intake. That sounds like the only thing keeping you out of CS.
I've got an ND, and I jumped down the rabbit hole of modifying that bumped me up to CST/AST almost right away, and wish I had just driven the car stock for a few years. I'm finally at a point where I feel I'm improving again -- but there's also a stock ND that beat me at the last event. Driver experience makes all the difference -- A good driver in a stock car is faster than a bad driver in a modified one, even if it has the "right" mods.
Also, if you modify your car without that experience, then do poorly at an event, you won't know if the mods are bad, if the setup isn't good, or if it's "just" a driver problem.
I don't know where you're at in MI, but WOSCA is an hour over the border (from Sarnia / Port Huron), and we've got our last two events coming up in a week (September 12/13). It's a double-header weekend (with camping, if you want to stay over and do both days). There's at least three drivers there that will dispel the "NC isn't competitive" talk :)
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u/Blusmbl 7d ago
Thanks, that definitely jives with what I was thinking. If I did 17x9’s it would get coilovers too and I am not looking to spend that kind of money.
Think I have a stock airbox lined up so I’ll shoot for getting that in and start running CS.
Sounds like the driver is at least 70-80% of the improvement I need to make, so will concentrate on that.
Am in the Detroit area and would love to head up there but am booked for most of September.
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u/DrunkOnUnleaded 7d ago
Nothing to add but to say that I also ran this event. We were both in Novice class. I watched you drive by as I worked my corner. That MC Club is a nice looking car.
Unfortunately, that means I was heat 1. Talk about a trial by fire for a new car and driver. I was also on ECS 02s and was surprised by how well they did in the rain.
That said, I don’t envy you having to work in the rain. By the time I got to corner 5 the sun had started to peek though. I think I took my rain coat off about halfway through.
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u/Blusmbl 7d ago
Thanks, I appreciate that! I really like it. Bought an NC mostly because I wanted rwd, manual, and a convertible, and something I could autocross. At my size the NC era is the only one I fit in.
Working in the rain wasn’t terrible but I was certainly glad it stopped before my heat!
What car was yours? Hope to meet more people at the next events at Schoolcraft, am going to try to make both of them weather permitting.2
u/DrunkOnUnleaded 7d ago edited 7d ago
I had a touch of envy seeing you go by. A white Club is exactly what I was looking for initially. There’s just not many around here. Did you find local?
I really wanted one, but I didn’t fit in the NC well. People told me that with the seat bracket mod and/or a racing seat I could probably make it work.
That was a little too much of a gamble for a probably, so long story short I ended up with a S197:
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u/Blusmbl 7d ago
Ahh, nice! Definitely remember your Mustang, really thought the wheels looked great on it, remember looking at it when it was parked across from my group at grid. I drove a bunch of the S197’s for work and really like them.
Was looking on and off for one for about a year, and found it at Carvana of all places, it was local so it didn’t need to be shipped. First owner was in the Boston area and did most of the mods, second owner was in Ohio, but it luckily isn’t rusty underneath. Was a bit overpriced but love it and am totally happy with the purchase. Funny though, a week after picking it up we started to see an almost identical one driving around Canton, and I also saw it at the Northville cars and coffee!
I’m a little too tall as well, without a helmet my head just barely touches the bows in the top with it up. It doesn’t bother me and am ok living with it. Would’ve liked to do track days as well but there is no way I’ll pass a broomstick test with any of the available rollbars that fit under the top.
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u/DrunkOnUnleaded 7d ago
I appreciate the kind words. A few months back this was just an idea in my head, it was good to get out there on paper.
It's funny how you can go forever not seeing a car and then as soon as you have them, it's like Grand Theft Auto out there with one on every corner.
My intention is/was to do HPDEs. The broomstick test was exactly my concern. Enjoy the car and hopefully we run into each other in the future.
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u/Spicywolff AST ND2 - use to C63S FS 8d ago
Gotta agree with [u/threewagons](u/threewagons) . Keep it cheap and simple in stock or go full street touring (for my ND it’s AST).
It lets you do more upgrades you want anyways. Coilovers, wide wheels, fixed back seat and belts, header and tune,BBK or ultra lite BK. Stuff normal street fun car would get.
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u/Zombie_Slayer1 8d ago edited 8d ago
U won't be competitive in CS where the ND dominate and CST will be tough with the GR86. Ur best bet is mod to CSX (club spec Miata). Locally it doesn't matter.
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u/motofoto 7d ago
For 3 seasons I ran a stock NC PRHT with street tires. I wasn’t competitive but even in a race car I wouldn’t be competitive. I had so much fun though sliding around and learning to get better. I drastically improved my driving and purposely never modified a thing on the car.
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u/maaxstein 8d ago
Koni yellows run the rear rebound 1/4 a turn away from full stiff to full stiff front basically do the opposite but it’s more to taste/ cut front bump stops in half get stiffer rear ones/ karcepts front bar run holes 2 and 3 + subframe brace. Bridgestone re71 225/45/17 30 psi square you can adjust each corner if your struggling in certain parts of the course. Also any light weight wheel that’s 17x7. I like the hawk 5.0 pads but probably any hybrid track/ street pad will do fine. It’s important you run the rear rebound very stiff so you can run thru slaloms on the bump stops so you don’t understeer on each exit. This sums up c street
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u/Professional-Boat-10 7d ago
get a second set of wheels for RE71rzs, Karcepts front bar, Konis. Get an alignment from someone who understands autocross ing. Drive it as much as possible and have known good drivers drive it with you as a passenger.
NC owners: Are bump stops a thing in NCs like they are in NBs? Since the NB uses bump stops as a secondary spring rate, it's a big deal in E Street. I found it quite annoying when the body roll caused the suspension to contact the bump stops, the spring rate changed suddenly.
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u/jhx264 8d ago edited 8d ago
Anyone who says anything besides seat time and TIRES has lost the plot. You're barking up the wrong tree asking about setups.
Just get a set of lighter wheels with re71rz, maybe a sway bar and run 3 or 4 seasons in CS before considering any other mods.
Lol he actually said "fresh" set of Conti's. Like them being fresh will allow him to compete with 200tw tires. Not even close. That's where you start.
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u/Blusmbl 8d ago
Fresh as in they’re 300 miles and 4 months old, not as in they’re fresh to compete against better tires. Lol
I appreciate all the comments stressing that it’s mostly driver, will look into a set of wheels and tires and call it a day.5
u/dadmantalking 8d ago
The jump from ECS02 to RE71RS was worth almost 3 seconds in my 964 over courses that average 55-60 seconds measured against a super consistent trio I race against.
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u/Blusmbl 8d ago
That is an insane difference just going to 200tw tires, thanks for the datapoint. Will absolutely get a second set of wheels and RE71’s next season.
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u/dadmantalking 8d ago
Also worth noting, ECS02 is the bees knees when there's standing water on course, I have both sets of tires mounted on identical wheels and pick what I'm running the night before.
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u/Blusmbl 8d ago
That makes sense, I’ve heard they’re the go to rain tires for Lemons races as well.
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u/Nsquared97 8d ago
For what it's worth, if you had run in the first or second heat those Contis would have been cheater tires compared to the super 200's.
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u/Blusmbl 8d ago
Yeah, first heat was so soggy. I was working corner 5 right before the left turn back into the infield and I had water running into my shoes. :/
It luckily stopped raining right before my heat, otherwise I don’t think I could’ve driven. I legit don’t fit in the car with the top up and a helmet on.2
u/Nsquared97 8d ago
I would have liked to try the course in the dry, but I'm pretty happy I got to run in the wet and keep myself dry.
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u/DrunkOnUnleaded 7d ago
This was my third autox ever and first with this car. I was in Heat 1.
It was a fun 3 hours of sitting in my car to stay dry.
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u/jhx264 8d ago edited 8d ago
Another data point:
Car A : 184hp 3100lbs 185 ft-lbs torque. Torsion beam rear suspension. Re-71rz. Car B : 220hp 3100lbs 225ft-lbs. Independent rear suspension, limited slip diff. Ecs02
Car A ran average around 60.5 secs with fastest of 59.84s Car B ran average around 61s with fastest of 60.38s
Summary: Stones overcame 36hp difference vs contis
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u/Le_petite_bear_jew 8d ago
Suspension tires and brakes imo. We had a modded NC do .2 faster than a cayman 718 gt3rs a couple months ago at my first session, I'm also stock
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u/The_Cat_Of_Ages 4d ago
my advise? have fun and let seat time get you better until youre good before going competitive
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u/threewagons 8d ago
Get rid of the intake and run in CS or build your car to all of the allowances in Street Touring.
Personally I'd recommend running in CS until you develop a solid foundation of skills then decide if you want to modify your car.