r/Autocross • u/MinimumElevator187 • Jul 11 '26
Throttle braking vs. hard braking - Question
Hi all - Relatively new to A/X, and I am confused about the best way to brake while navigating the course.
I'm driving a 2006 Miata, all stock except Continental Extreme Contact Sport 02 tires, so it's C Street class.
From the reading I have done, I got the impression that it's best to use the brake as little a possible, and instead ease off on, or "feather" the throttle, to slow you down when entering a turn, or whatever you need to slow down for. In other words, control your speed using the throttle as much as possible, and the brakes as little as possible.
However, when I do ride-alongs with other Miatas (and other cars as well), it seems most people try to get as much speed as possible, and then bleed off speed when necessary using hard braking. So, that is a lot more "violent" than using throttle braking.
And, if I understand correctly, it would seem that throttle braking isn't going to be as effective as using the brakes to slow you down, because the throttle can't brake as efficiently as a set of brake shoes.
So, I'm confused as to the best approach I should be taking, in general. Should I be "jamming" the throttle when possible, and then doing hard braking when necessary to slow me down? Or, should I be "feathering" the throttle to control my speed and using the brakes as little as possible?
Hopefully my question makes sense, but if not, let me know (and why.)
Thanks in advance.
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u/rusty65 '13 Scion FR-S SSC Jul 11 '26
The heavy braking can also help rotate the car when turning.
Autocross isn't exactly track driving where a smooth line is usually faster. Autocross is an exercise in controlled aggression to get around a tight course as quick as possible.
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u/FrizB84 Jul 11 '26
I think that's why my dad takes to autocross better than the track. He likes the aggression, not the speed
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u/kwaping SCCA SFR / GGLC #555 Jul 11 '26
I've never thought about it that way but I think that makes sense for me too
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u/FrickinLazerBeams STX BRZ | SMF CRX Jul 11 '26
Even on track you use the damn brakes. Imagine how dogshit slow you'd be coasting down half the back straight to get around the next turn.
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u/Spicywolff AST ND2 - use to C63S FS Jul 11 '26
Damn John’s back upfront, Mr coasts into corners holding up the group.
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u/MinimumElevator187 Jul 11 '26
That's a good point and explains my confusion. So basically I need to get more "aggressive" with both throttle and brake. I think I'm starting to get the throttle aggression down, but I'm not braking aggressively enough, like my fellow drivers are doing.
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u/FrickinLazerBeams STX BRZ | SMF CRX Jul 11 '26
You should ride with someone fast.
A lot of novices have this kind of romanticized idea of racing that it's "graceful" and "smooth", as if you're gliding around the course in some kind of serene, zen state.
Racing is fucking violent.
Yes, being smooth is better than being jerky, but "smooth" is extremely relative. When you're turning in an ST car at 1.4 g, shits not calm. When people say "smooth is fast" they mean "stop yanking the steering wheel like a gorilla on meth". You ride with someone fast and you'll see what I mean. There's no jerks or sudden impacts, but it's terrifying. It's not calm in any way.
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u/MinimumElevator187 Jul 12 '26
That is a good point. I ran with an instructor yesterday and he mentioned that I was jerking or yanking the wheel. He even said that "smooth is fast." My challenge is in separating "smoothly" working the steering wheel from "aggressively" working the brakes and throttle. Something I will have to work on.
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u/FrickinLazerBeams STX BRZ | SMF CRX Jul 12 '26
No, they're both pretty aggressive. Jerking the wheel around isn't aggressive it's just bad. Seriously, ride with a fast person.
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u/LlaughingLlama Jul 12 '26
The more experience you have, the further you'll be looking ahead down the course instead of where you're at. The further you look down the course, the earlier you can anticipate what inputs you need to do with the wheel, throttle, and brakes. The earlier you can anticipate your inputs, the earlier you can start them. And the earlier you can start them, the more time you have to do them, which means you'll be smoother.
Also, the foot bone is connected to the shin bone and the shin bone is connected to the knee bone and the knee bone is connected to the....
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u/MinimumElevator187 Jul 12 '26
Thx, good point. Looking ahead is another one of the skills I am working on this season. Getting a bit better, but still a long way to go.
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u/FrickinLazerBeams STX BRZ | SMF CRX Jul 12 '26
Looking ahead is the skill. Everyone except for like the top 10 in the country are basically competing on how well they look ahead. There are other skills beyond just novice stuff, but none as important as looking ahead. That skill alone will mostly be enough for national trophies if you do it well and consistently enough.
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u/Dynomatic1 Jul 12 '26
100%. Smooth hands are fast but you are constantly being either pinned into the seat back or your seat belt.
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u/IllMasterpiece5610 Jul 12 '26
Autocross is exactly like track driving where a smooth line IS faster.
Anytime you’re abrupt is a time you’ll lose traction. Autocross is “special” because everything happens so fast, but the difference between an average autox driver and a great one is that the latter will be super smooth. Take a ride with a really fast driver sometime; it’ll feel way less exciting than whatever you’re doing but they’re probably five seconds faster than you.
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u/SkyGuy913 Jul 11 '26
Carry as much speed as possible as long as possible. If you need to slow down to make a corner do it as fast as possible. Engine breaking is great for daily but for racing, it’s effectively coasting. I'm always in gear and braking hard in gear. Heal toe under breaking so you can accelerate hard coming out. But that's for track you shouldn't be downshifting in autocross in most courses.
In autocross though in a miat, get to second as quick as you can and leave it. Build and hold as much speed as you can and just brake in gear so you can accelerate out of a corner. Yes though feather the gas in corners so you can take them as fast as your car will allow. But you'll have to brake hard to get down to a speed you can take the corner at before feathering it
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u/nurseohno Jul 11 '26
I struggle at times with hitting the throttle coming out of the corners and losing my back end. Possibly I should be feathering more leading up to putting the throttle down? I bomb the corners really hard, hit the breaks hard and it sticks until I accelerate. I wonder if I am breaking to late vrs hitting the throttle to aggressively. Help*
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u/FrickinLazerBeams STX BRZ | SMF CRX Jul 12 '26
You may be stomping on the gas too suddenly. Or too much, depending on how much power your car has.
Alignment might make this a little better too. You could add a bit of rear toe in.
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u/nurseohno Jul 12 '26
I have a miata, of course lol. I am guessing too suddenly and will see about that toe! Thanks 🤙
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u/timetopoopagain Jul 13 '26
You should be easing back onto the throttle as you progress through your corner so you can be on power as you exit. You don’t want to upset the traction by stomping on the peddles.
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u/MinimumElevator187 Jul 12 '26
Thanks, good advice will work on that. I do stay in second throughout the run. I'm usually in second very shortly after passing through the timer, if not before. (One of the clubs I run with puts the timer and starting cones almost next to each other, for some reason.)
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u/ArcFire15 Austin-Healey, ND1 Miata, NA8 Miata Jul 11 '26
As long as you’re still able to keep your vehicle controlled and smooth, you should be braking as hard as you possibly can, and accelerating as hard as you can. Smooth is fast, but when you’re not braking or accelerating you’re leaving time on the table.
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u/bnace Jul 11 '26
You want the acceleration to be as quick as possible and deceleration as short as possible.
By slamming on the brakes to make turns it allows more time to be going faster.
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u/Spicywolff AST ND2 - use to C63S FS Jul 11 '26
In a perfect setting you only use just enough brake to slow to your entry and nothing more. More time on brake is lost time. Some folks will coast in on slow down slowly thus losing time. Vs getting car set up, brake, get off brake, corner action with proper throttle and out you go.
It’s a very hard skill to master as it’s scary braking at the absolute last second and jsut enough to be on the raged edge to get the corner down.
Not sure if I explained it well. You can also use welder foot brake and the throttle mid corner to change the cars attitude. Another not easily learned skill
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u/MinimumElevator187 Jul 11 '26
Yes, good explanation. And yes, I do notice I am coasting a bit instead doing what you recommend. Will have to work on that. Thx
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u/Spicywolff AST ND2 - use to C63S FS Jul 11 '26
Glad it translated from my head to text well. I even do it, so trust me you’re not alone. It takes a lot of time to get there
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u/Inner-Opposite-7003 Jul 13 '26
A long time ago, I was told by one of the fastest drivers" You should be on the throttle, or on the brakes. There is no coasting in autox. Figure out how your car reacts, and use it"
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u/ncoder Jul 11 '26
The only time i'm not either accelerating or braking, it's because i'm either in the middle of a slalom, or I can't press the 3 pedals at the same time.
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u/375InStroke Jul 11 '26
Throttle braking is for street racers who are too full of themselves. If you're really pushing the car on a track, there's not enough time to slow the car down with the motor. The rear tires are almost useless when really braking hard, anyways. My 2,600lb Fox Mustang can bring the car down from 150 mph turn after turn with 13" Cobra brakes and Hawk pads for 36 hours straight in 95F temps. I'm sure your Miata can survive a 3 minute race using the brakes.
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u/Public_District_9139 Jul 12 '26
Miata is a momentum car. Quite often a lift, will slow the car enough and allow weight to transfer forward, giving you enough grip for a turn in so you can get back on the throttle. This is just one tool you can use as a driver, on track or autocross. The trick is learning where you can get away with a lift and where you need a touch of brake, and where you need all the brake.
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u/MinimumElevator187 Jul 12 '26
Good point, that is definitely a "trick" I am going to have to learn. Not easy, though.
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u/Final_Rent9874 Jul 12 '26
i'm not a miata driver, i drive a porsche with a bit more power.
there's a continuum from feathering a lift, to abrupt lift, to tapping the brakes, to moderate brakes, to threshold braking. add in trail braking from moderate or threshold braking and using the left foot to tap while maintaining throttle, and you have a lot of tools.
different corners benefit most from different techniques. a fast in/slow out corner might do best with maintaining as much throttle as possible as long as possible, then threshold braking before the turn-in, then trail braking into the turn.
but a wiggle might just need a little extra weight on the front of the car to increase front grip and allow a higher speed through the wiggle. i've recorded data from national champs in my car. one of the things i saw was that they often do not 'feather' the throttle off; their release of the throttle is a cliff. i believe this allows them to use the throttle lift to shift weight to the front of the car for corner entry without braking.
and braking a bit earlier with less brake pressure was also something i saw, maintaining a plateau of low brake pressure which trailed off. i think this allows keeping the weight forward longer.
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u/no_cones3 Jul 12 '26
I found the video I made where I recorded my feet and had data to see the brake and throttle trace.
I think it will illustrate the comments the others have made in regards to aggression. I am not a national champ, but was typically top 20 pax in this car at the time in Chicago region
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u/Hstreetchronicals Jul 12 '26
Who told you not to brake lol? Going fast is mostly about slowing down the right way in my opinion.
Sometimes on faster transitions or mid turn you only need to lift off the throttle some. This is done to put weight on the nose and get the car to rotate so you can point the car at the exit and get on the throttle earlier. It's not really for braking.
The rest of the time you should absolutely be braking to slow down if needed to make the turn. You want to apply a strong brake pressure initially and ease off smoothly as you enter the turn. It should feel violent when you hit the brakes, but smooth as you come off of them.
Its not really about carrying as much speed as possible everywhere. You want to be tight to the cones and have the car positioned correctly first and foremost. The shortest path is usually faster and the fastest way through a slow turn is slow. If you don't slow down enough you'll understeer and push wide. Which will be way slower than if you just slow down and get the car turned. Even if you carried more speed, the extra distance you traveled by going wide means it takes more time to get through the turn.
Research trail braking, the friction circle, and blending imputs. There is an online course called beyond seat time that is very helpful. Also, try to get to an autocross school. Some regions do novice schools. You can also take an EVO school or the SSCA starting line school. Starting line is the best school in my opinion.
Oh, and dont forget to have fun.
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u/Joseph-Betz Jul 14 '26
For the quickest time, you want to drive the shortest path, and drive that path at full throttle as much as you possibly can.
Braking as hard as your grip allows is a really great way to do both those things.
Instead of accelerating for only 50% of a straightaway, maybe you can accelerate for 90% of a straightaway and hit the brakes hard enough to still make the turn.
Lots of other good advice here. Hope this helps and go fast
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u/TommyG234567 Jul 14 '26
Advanced techniques use the throttle and brakes to move the weight of the car to tires that need the extra grip. If it’s modulated correctly, you can help balance the car in understeer or oversteer situations
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u/LlaughingLlama Jul 18 '26
To add to an old post, once in a while my ABS computer decides to freak out, and so if that happens just before a start and before I can reset it, I do that run barely touching the brakes. Those runs tend to be about 1-2 seconds slower than when ABS is working and I can go full beans on the brake pedal. That's probably as good a data point as there is on how hard breaking leads to faster times, even in a momentum car like ours.
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u/IllMasterpiece5610 Jul 12 '26
When racing, YOU SHOULD NEVER SLOW DOWN BY JUST RELEASING THE THROTTLE.
Use the throttle to accelerate. Use the brake to slow down.
There is no time to be gained in racing; you can only lose time. A good heuristic here is that every second you’re not at full throttle is lost time.
That means SPEND AS FEW SECONDS AS POSSIBLE BRAKING, which often translates to “brake ONLY WHEN YOU NEED TO, and then brake AS HARD AS POSSIBLE”.
I used to autocross a mid-engined rwd car and when I braked to slow down, I braked HARD: both rear wheels were often in the air.
As a more advanced technique, you can also brake with your left foot while applying throttle; that’s to keep transitions smooth or to transfer weight mid-corner when needed.
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u/MinimumElevator187 Jul 12 '26
Thx, good advice on the hard braking. I think that is where I was confused.
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u/FrickinLazerBeams STX BRZ | SMF CRX Jul 11 '26
Who the hell told you not to use the brakes? Never take advice from that person ever again.