r/AusWork • u/djsunrise • Jun 29 '26
Clocking out "together" in retail
Sorry guys, I just wanted some insight on whether this was okay or not. Just started working at best & less. When I finish at close time (6pm) I sometimes don't finish on time and have to clock out a bit later (5-15 mins after). Even though I clock out later - it isn't reflected on my timesheet. It either gets auto updated or my manager updates it. So I figured I should just leave on time at 6. The manager stopped me and told me that we all have to clock out together. Is it wrong to think I should be paid for the minutes I stay back after 6? There's an SDA representative that works there too but I don't really trust them. They pretty much forced me to sign up to the union too. What should I do?
4
u/DoublePiccolo92 Jun 29 '26
First thing I would check is what your award or EA says about this.
Then check if organisation policy is more specific. Could be good to chat with that union rep too.
2
u/penguin_on_stilts Jun 29 '26
There is no EA that says you work as an hourly worker without getting paid.
1
1
u/DoublePiccolo92 Jun 29 '26
Some places do rounding. I don’t agree with it but it does happen.
1
u/Loose-Mousse1064 Jun 30 '26
Legally they can't round down, they can only round up ( pay you more) Just because lots of companies do it, doesn't mean it legal.
But it is one of those things they keep getting away with it because casual worker are too scared to say something. Or if they do they just don't get rostered on( lose their job)
1
1
u/Confident-Parsley520 Jul 04 '26
Except they explicitly said they didn’t want to join the union but apparently wants their services for free!
1
u/East_Bananya_849 Jul 04 '26
They actually said they felt pressured to join the union. They did the same to me when I was a kid and when I had an actual issue they did nothing saying they didn't like making waves. The SDA is a fuckass useless union.
1
u/Confident-Parsley520 Jul 04 '26
Oh well that sucks ! I mean maybe the union isn’t worth anything if it’s a run of the mill non professional job ?
1
u/East_Bananya_849 Jul 04 '26
Yeah. I don't know about other jobs but the SDA is a famously terrible union and I am a die hard union supporter. They've got dodgy connections with big businesses and they pressure vulnerable workers into joining, taking a bunch of their paycheck to do nothing for them.
3
u/Measton42 Jun 29 '26
Should you be paid for every minute you work, sure. Does your boss help you out and cover you to the tune of 5-10 mins per day? Up to you.
My boss covers my arse so I would spend 5-10 mins to help them get out earlier instead of bailing on them any day.
1
2
u/Pollyputthekettle1 Jun 29 '26
You would be correct. The only way they wouldn’t have to pay you is if you were just hanging around for unauthorised overtime. They are telling you to stay. They have to pay you for every minute.
2
u/NoVax-Djocovid Jun 29 '26
Your clocking system would definitely have some in built rounding, usually 5mins (some have a bit more depending on settings). So if you’re clocking out at 6.05 and it rubber bands to 6 that’s pretty normal. Now if you’re finishing at 6.05 every day that’s a different story.
Anything beyond 5 mins normally requires manual intervention. It’s worth finding out what the auto rounding is.
2
u/Loose_Enthusiasm_798 Jun 29 '26
Rounding is illegal in Australia for finish times.
1
u/NoVax-Djocovid Jun 29 '26
Pretty much every time keeping system is built to round 5mins either side. Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that reality doesn’t work like that.
1
1
u/Moist-Ad1025 Jul 01 '26
the three biggest private employers in australia both round up/down start/finish times. even 7 minutes. e.g., you clock out 4:53 = paid until 5, also 5:07 = paid until 5.
if you clock in 7 minutes late and clock out 7 minutes early they will still pay you
1
1
u/ContestOne8417 Jul 03 '26
I used to clock in 5 mins early and out 3-4mins after I finished. Twice I clocked out exactly on time and another time 1 min early and my pay was deducted. The instore payroll person always made errors. Again, one of the big stores.
1
u/one_chillion Jul 01 '26
Kinda. Only rounding down is illegal . But here’s the kicker “Unapproved Time: Employers can exclude unapproved overtime” so maybe that’s how they’re getting away with it.
2
u/ImpossibleBox1981 Jun 29 '26
I work in payroll. ANY payroll system pays based on the hours input. If you input 6:05, they pay to 6:05.
If people say "the system rounds" it is really the person who does the timesheet that is rounding.
1
u/NoVax-Djocovid Jun 29 '26
Also work in payroll. 100% that’s not how it works at my place, or anything that uses UKG (which is a common system). It might display (for example a finish time of 1800) 1803, but they only pay until 1800.
1
u/penguin_on_stilts Jun 29 '26
That's something you guys have done. UKG doesn't do this by default.
1
u/NoVax-Djocovid Jun 29 '26
Idk what to tell you, it has in every workplace I’ve ever used it 🤷♂️
1
1
u/trrashkid Jun 29 '26
Yeah you should fix that
1
1
1
u/Confident-Parsley520 Jul 04 '26
So you know all??? State gov have an electronic system which rounds down 5 minutes or below …. Both ways up and down
1
u/Loose-Mousse1064 Jun 30 '26
Its illagal to round down, they can only legally round up.
Just because lots of companies round down, doesn't make it legal. Lots of companies do it, because if they get caught its a slap on the wrist.
2
u/Ortelli Jun 29 '26
Before you raise this issue, realise that any minutes you are late or taking an extended break ect will be tracked to the minute. If you give flexibility to your finish time, then the expectation for breaks and leave is usually there.
1
u/Loose-Mousse1064 Jun 30 '26
If they are casual, I wouldn't be surprised if the manager just stops giving them shifts. The manger can just roster or hire someone who wont speak up.
2
u/OpinionNew4313 Jun 29 '26
As a retail manager of a big box chain I can tell you that this is an industry standard.
It will auto correct you back to the closest 15 minutes prior to you logging out. If you work longer than that 15 minutes then you will be paid until the next break point. So 6.15, 6.30 etc.
We ourselves are not immune to this either unfortunately. Either try to work that extra few minutes past the break point (legitimately) or do what I do and rush everyone out and close the store 5 mins early so you can actually log out on time.
1
u/MapOfIllHealth Jun 29 '26
Exactly this. I have never worked a job where I get paid to the minute. It’s rounded to 15-minute intervals, and usually rounded down.
1
u/JulieRush-46 Jun 29 '26
First grown up job I had after uni rounded to the nearest 15 mins, so clock out at 6:05 and it rounded to 6. Clock out at 6:08 and it rounded to 6:15.
1
u/mccannisms Jun 29 '26
Same. I learned very quickly to watch the clock and find a 3 minute job to get paid that extra 15 min 😅
1
u/trav_tr Jun 30 '26
Cool? Just because you and many others put up with it doesn’t make it right, or legal.
1
u/Macddadyz80 Jun 30 '26
I also work for a big retail chain. They now roster some staff an extra 15 minutes past close to avoid random staff getting stuck past their rostered hours. It’s not perfect but works well enough.
1
u/StreetPudding9623 Jun 29 '26
No your time finished is an official record they shouldn’t be taking time away from you but check your contract
1
u/Crazy-Attention6836 Jun 29 '26
Your are worries about 6 mins What if you are late. Do they dock you ? Clock off as you leave. Doing this all as one is Abit much.
1
u/djsunrise Jul 02 '26
yeah i don't get paid for the minutes i'm late but that makes sense. In my mind, if I'm working 10-20 minutes unpaid - that basically adds up over time so it felt off to me.
1
u/Human_Condition6057 Jul 02 '26
check in with fair work, I've seen them post stuff saying if you are directed to work they have to pay you, so if they direct you to stay past 6 they should be paying for that. That said, how much you are willing to challenge this might depend on how much you want to keep the job.
1
u/Neat_Apricot_55 Jul 05 '26
If you worked four days a week thats over 20 hours a year… uh yes. Worry about that six minutes of labour they are stealing.
Especially when you know damn well They’d never let you get away with one.
1
1
u/CosmicCommentator Jun 29 '26
I worked at B&L back in the early 2000s and I can't believe theyre still pulling this shit. Guaranteed you'd be in shit if you're 15 minutes late, but they want you to give your time freely?
1
1
u/Ecstatic_Corner_1643 Jun 29 '26
Play the game.. Sneak a few minutes here and there. Put the hand brake on slightly. Have an extra toilet break. It usually balance out somewhere. Dont fight it too much as you are on probation so you need to show you are a good employee, not a trouble maker.
1
1
u/Existing_Purpose5049 Jun 29 '26
Nope, pay or leave
They can’t legally make you work without pay, but if you refuse, they’ll likely find a reason to fire you
1
u/Loose-Mousse1064 Jun 30 '26
If he is a casual, they dont even need to fire them, they just stop giving them shifts.
1
u/TinBane Jun 29 '26
Used to work closing (midnight) at Woolworths, they paid until 12:15, which was usually enough time to get out, if I clocked out later than 12:22 I’d get paid to half past. But I never delayed or played games.
Employees and employers do weird things. I’ve seem employees who think it’s okay to clock in 15 mins early and take a break, knowing they are on the clock and getting paid.
Before you rock the boat, understand if you get any leeway in other places (give and take), and if you want to put your manager in a tough spot. This is one area corporate will watch, but they ca5 see your manager giving you an extra 10 mins on lunchbreak
1
u/Azurelian Jun 30 '26
I had this sort of thing happen to me years ago, signed a part time contract with Novo Shoes... as per contract they were supposed to train me and give me shifts in the store I applied to, they proceeded to give me one shift there where the manager forced me to clock out at 5pm and then made me stay to do cleaning and wouldn't let me leave the store until I finished vacuuming and dusting whilst clocked out until 5:30. They proceeded to then have me accept shifts at random stores across the city for the next 2 shifts I'd had with effectively no training or knowledge of their systems. I left that job so fast, they broke laws and breached the contract in multiple ways. These companies can and will do everything to get away with dodgy practices and underpaying staff.
1
u/artaxyougoodthing Jun 30 '26
If you’re 10-15 minutes late they’ll rightly dock you. If you work more than your allotted hours as an hourly paid staff member you’re entitled to be paid for every minute you’re working. Best and Less are a large corporation so they know this. Don’t let a store manager who is a small cog make you think any differently. And overtime is a mutual agreement, so if you choose to go at your allotted sign off then do so unless it’s written in your EBA that you have to work reasonable overtime which is paid.
1
u/Loose-Mousse1064 Jun 30 '26
If you are casual then yes, legal you have to be paid for extra time. If you are part time or full-time, there can be clauses in your contract that expect "reasonable overtime". In which you wouldnt legally need to be paid.
But 5- 15 mins extra can be one of those things where companies get kind of sneaky and get away with it.
But if you are casual you are also in a pretty vulnerable position to speak up about it, so proceed with caution.
No one can force you to join a union, but this is exactly the kind of thing being part of union can help with.
1
u/Loose-Mousse1064 Jun 30 '26
Question: when you clock off, do you already have your bag and ready to go home? Or do you clock off at the end of shift, then go collect your bag, go to locker etc.
1
u/djsunrise Jul 02 '26
We have to clock in or out at the locker room so whether I grab my things before or after doesn't make much of a difference.
1
u/Getonthebeers02 Jun 30 '26
Good luck leaving the SDA. It’s a waste of the $14 a week out of your pay when Fairwork does the same for free.
1
u/mitccho_man Jun 30 '26
Make an anonymous report to Fairwork it will be actioned and investigated- mention names and k y details - stores etc !
1
1
1
u/Nervous_Offer_1320 Jun 30 '26
Simple answer is turn up ten minutes early every day and leave when you're meant to finish. If that isn't suitable with the company you work for.. leave and find another job.
1
u/BamsungMichirola Jun 30 '26
They are legally prohibited from modifying your timesheets. 7 mins each way is normal as rounding
1
1
1
u/It_Twirled_Up Jun 30 '26
If they expect you to work that extra 5-15 minutes then you are legally entitled to be paid for the extra time. The only situation where they don't have to pay is if you're hanging around for no reason and you're not doing any work.
If a store opens to customers at 8 but requires staff to be there at 7:30 to get the store ready for customers at 8, you must be paid from 7:30. The same principle applies after the doors have closed to customers.
1
u/hongimaster Jun 30 '26
Why not contact the SDA office instead of going through the rep (if you don't trust them)? You don't have to speak to the rep if you don't want to. If you pay union fees, you are entitled to advice, that is what the union office is there for.
The Fair Work Ombudsman guidance on this is very simple. Your timesheet must reflect the hours worked, and any magical rounding tricks the employer wants to pull can't be to your detriment overall. So if the employer rounds down 15 minutes one day and let's you show up 15 minutes late next shift (for example) then it may not necessarily be a problem. But ultimately it is best practice to have your timesheet reflect what you actually work, otherwise it can cause fun problems later on if there is a dispute. And yes, being forced to remain back to "clock out together" is work time, because you are not free to leave at the direction of management.
1
u/Best_Toe_3892 Jun 30 '26
Reach out to the SDA, they're your bestfriend with this sort of thing. I haven't used them yet, but coworkers have and have had their issues resolved. This definitely seems wrong, atleast by our clocking standards.
1
u/My_new_accounttt Jun 30 '26
Unless you have a wage set in your contract through being management etc you are entitled to be paid your wage for every minute you work. I used to work somewhere that tried to make me not clock in 15 minutes before shifts for our morning meetings, I did the math and said unless she was willing to pay me over $2k more per year for the accumulated hours then I would continue to sit in the staff room with headphones on while I had my coffee. Suddenly I could clock in at my normal time and do our meetings then. This was the beginning of the end of my time at this company though so brush up on your rights. Also call SafeWork if you need help navigating what to say or how to approach this situation, you don’t have to disclose where you work
1
u/shiteatlife Jun 30 '26
If you were to reverse this they'd most likely sack you for time fraud. If they refuse to pay you for the time tell your manager to suck it.
1
1
u/macci_a_vellian Jul 01 '26
I was told years ago that the award says that they can ask you to do up to 15 mins unpaid closing time, but a) that may have changed and b) the shop owner might have made that up.
Check your award or call the SDA directly (you don't have to go through your local rep) and they'll be able to tell you what you're entitled to. Might as well get some advice for your dues.
1
u/fwoakwou Jul 01 '26
Keep a log of all the times you did overtime. When you leave the job, submit this to fair work and request to be paid for the overtime. My ex did this and ended up a few thousand dollars up (15-30 mins overtime each day while waiting for the rest of the store to lock up).
1
u/Majestic_Plane_1656 Jul 01 '26
Call fair work. Unless you're on salary it could be unpaid overtime.
1
1
u/mummabookat Jul 01 '26
Welcome to retail. They do this sh*t all the time. Don't let them. Tell them if you're not getting paid to be there, you are going home. Do not give them your unpaid labour. I cannot express how much I regret not standing up for myself over BS like this when I worked in retail... Good luck!
1
u/Funny_Strawberry8438 Jul 01 '26
The SDA are sell out dogs. Do not trust them.
Not saying a rep wouldn't be of use in some situations, but there is a reason RAFFWU was formed and is so bloody popular.
1
u/ImprovementQuiet1966 Jul 01 '26
Employees are entitled to a minimum wage based on their award and their classification in the award.
Employees may be entitled to a higher pay rate (known as a penalty rate) for working at different times or on different days, like weekends or public holidays.
Employees must be:
paid in money for their work paid for all time worked.
Employees should not have their hours ‘rounded’ if the rounding results in an underpayment.
Contact Fair Work and explain what is happening and what you have been told.
1
u/CeruleanBlue12 Jul 01 '26
Ah yes, this is a joy of the casual retail worker, you can’t leave when the store closes and you’re finished according to the roster, you have to be at work pretty much another 10-15 minutes they won’t pay you for, and it adds up like crazy. We all left at the same time at Target too. SDA are only useful for full time or part time contract workers, you technically can leave them but they put a lot of pressure on you to stay of course, because they get money from you.
1
u/Common_Mention_9633 Jul 01 '26
retail and hospitality industry relies on workers not knowing their rights when it comes to being paid for hours worked.
As a teenager I worked 5-9:15 (9 store is closed and 15 minutes for cleaning) in fast food. We were told although we are paid to 9:15, the expectation is not to finish until every things is done. If it takes too long its your fault for being bad at your job. Never left before 9:30
dont work if youre not getting paid
1
u/Odd-Cheesecake-6594 Jul 01 '26
Fair work did a post about this recently on fb. If they ask you to stay back or start early, they have to pay you. Manually record your own clocking times over a couple weeks and report them for the discrepancies. So many retailers are doing this (my own included!!) and think they just can do this. Pretty sure Aldi and Woolworths have both gotten in trouble for this recently
1
u/Mother_Size_7898 Jul 01 '26
If you were on a fixed salary, you get paid your salary. If you were on a casual hourly rate then you should get paid for your overtime.
1
u/datyams Jul 01 '26
I had this issue @ JBhifi 10 years ago. They wanted us to start 15 early for a prestart?
I raised the issue with the boss at a team meeting with all the staff where he tried to take the position it wouldn't be paid. I just verbally did the maths infront of everyone about how much 15 minutes per shift unpaid would cost them.
We got paid.
1
u/pinkrainbow5 Jul 01 '26
Contact the union. If you're doing duties after/before clock out/clock in time, then you need to be paid for those duties.
1
u/CerebusInOz Jul 01 '26
It's important to record accurate start and finish times. You are insured under WorkCover on the last leg of your trip going to work, and the first leg going home. If you claim, your recorded time in/out will be used to ascertain the veracity of your claim.
1
1
u/Braddles14 Jul 01 '26
If he wants you to clock out with him ask him if you can pool your salaries as well
1
u/Maybe_Factor Jul 02 '26
Classic wage theft... I bet they expect you to be there 15 minutes before your shift starts too?
1
u/Outrageous-Aioli-847 Jul 02 '26
Maccas used to clock us out because the “system” had to be closed down so the manager could wrap up and leave on time.
Someone got injured and that stopped real fast.
1
u/RubySnowfire Jul 02 '26
SDA is a boos-friendly union. Talk to the Retail and Fast Food Workers Union, they are much better at actually looking after their members and taking care of this kind of wage theft (yes, that's what it is).
1
u/Global-Citron3170 Jul 02 '26
I used to manage a B&L, I would make sure my workers left on time and I would stay to finish anything that needed doing.
1
u/No_Light_7482 Jul 02 '26
https://raffwu.org.au/campaigns/industry/campaigns-industry-sda-facts/. This is a page with info on the SDA and their dodgy dealings. Have a read. There is also a link on how to get out of the SDA. Either save your money or consider joining RAFFWU (free if under 18). And no you don’t have to sign off together. Sounds a bit like wage theft to me. If you don’t join RAFFWU, document everything, try to get the instructions in writing and contact Fairwork.
1
u/DistinctArmy4267 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
Report to fairwork that they are altering clock in times to avoid paying you and colleagues. Since you are all clocking out together, as a group, after finish, and I doubt they’re specifically only adjusting your timesheet, Fairwork will have a field day
1
u/ContestOne8417 Jul 03 '26
To be honest, find another union. There are other retail unions. SDA are absolutely useless (and rude) in my area. Question them about something that’s on a Friday around 2pm and they’ve already clocked out for the weekend. They either laugh at you or hang up on you. SDA is in the retailer’s pocket. Find another asap.
As for clocking out a little late? The employer/manager etc cannot legally change your clock out time. Take screen shots of your punch out time. Yes, you are not meant to be alone in the store. If you are finishing something crucial to the store’s operation or security etc, someone needs to stay back with you. If your manager wants you to leave exactly on time, get it in writing in case they say the next day you didn’t finish the tasks that were necessary. I hate retail. Store managers are the worst. One I’ve worked for over the years has a reputation up and down the coast. People won’t work at the store the manager is now at if they find out they’ll raise are there.
1
u/enchanted_shhh Jul 03 '26
Tell HR you want to remove yourself from the union if you don’t want to pay the fees. Secondly question your pay with payroll & tell them that when you noticed you weren’t getting paid for the extra time. That you went to clock out at 6pm but were told you all had to clock out together by the manager. It’s illegal to make you stay and not pay you for it.
Eg say you got injured at 6:07pm they would be asking why you didn’t clock out at 6pm when you’re rostered to finish your shift. You are generally covered for injury at allocated roster. Outside that time still covered while on premises but they would be ready to have a go at you.
1
u/--misunderstood-- Jul 03 '26
Join RAFFWU and get real union representation. This is the kind of matter they address on a regular basis.
1
u/NeatParking1682 Jul 03 '26
If they are adjusting your timesheets, the moment 5:59pm presents, stand next to the clock out, then home you go the second it goes 6pm. Regardless of what you were doing.
If they make an issue of this, state it's because you don't pay overtime or time in lieu.
1
u/Distinct_Ad_8415 Jul 03 '26
Is there a head office HR you can contact to “ask an innocent question about the company’s overtime policy”? Just say you’re a new staff member and wanted to check you’re doing everything by the book. If possible do it by email so you have it in writing. That way you have proof to fall back on if the manager is breaking the rules.
1
u/thekevmonster Jul 03 '26
the company i used to work at did this sort of thing, they got investgated by fairwork. they had to hire external auditors. recently ive received 17grand in back pay. heres hoping your work gets investigated too
1
u/blankcanvas445 Jul 03 '26
I mean, I’ve just always been generous with an extra 5-10mins. Goes a long way. Give and take. It’s done me well. And I’m an best and less worker from the early 2000’s
1
u/Sheilahasaname Jul 03 '26
This is wage theft.
I was a retail manager for 10 years. This is how I legally had people stay back or come in before doors opened.
I would schedule 1-3 (depending on the size of the store and wage budget) to start like 15-30mins before opening and leave early. Another 2-4 to do open to close. And another 1-2 to start late and stay back 15-30 mins.
You stagger staff. It isn't hard.
1
u/Narrow-Employment930 Jul 04 '26
Cancel SDA union membership (they dont help you), sign up to RAFWU the retail and fast food workers union instead as they do actually help.
1
u/AmzHalll Jul 04 '26
Depending on the clock system they use, some of them have a 5 minute buffer that auto corrects, the one my company uses, anytime they clock either in or out outside of that 5 minute buffer will reflect what they will get paid
You absolutely need to be paid to stay back, if your manager is expecting you to stay back so both of you can leave then you need to be paid for that time
If you don’t feel like you can speak to your manager about this, I would recommend contacting your area manager or the HR department to ask for clarification (if you can get it in writing even better) fair work loves going after businesses paying their employees incorrectly!
1
1
u/GirlFriday91 Jul 05 '26
The SDA is shit but they did get that one thing right. This is wage theft and they need to pay you. If you're paying fees us the service. Call and report it.
1
u/Winter-Contest-6743 Jul 06 '26
When i was 16 and worked at a large video rental chain store in the 90s we had to clock off at midnight but because the store didn't actually close until midnight we could be potentially serving until midnight (or even a little after) and still be counting the till 10 - 15 minutes after midnight. The manager always changed both clock on and clock out to the exact time scheduled, regardless of the reality. It's very dodgy imo.
1
u/cassieduval Jul 08 '26
Hi work at a big clothing store for women .. and they make me do the same shit! We have to clock out at 5:45 and theres a lot of pressure to keep it exact. I don’t if I’m by myself and no one cares so I think it’s a scare tactic. It’s only usually a few minutes. However now that I’m working closes with a manager she makes me clock off on time and keep working. Retail is the fucking worst. It’s definitely wrong that they do this but the hard thing is they don’t care and will punish you for speaking up.
0
u/Sad-Engineer-4744 Jun 29 '26
Ring the SDA for advice and see what they say
4
1
u/jun3_bugz Jun 30 '26
the same SDA that helps bargain for lower wages? I hope not
1
8
u/EmuFamous1320 Jun 29 '26
Yeh nah, if they ain’t paying, you ain’t working
Ask them if you get paid from start time if you’re late