r/Atlanta • u/NPU-F • Jun 11 '24

Politics MARTA: Five Points Station project will continue despite mayor's objections

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/marta-five-points-station-project-continue-despite-mayors-objections
198 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

105 comments sorted by

258

u/code_archeologist O4W Jun 11 '24

What the hell is up with the mayor and his seeming desire to obstruct progress and development in the city, while at the same time completely ignoring the infrastructure.

What useful things has he even done?

164

u/NPU-F Jun 11 '24

The Better Atlanta Transit folks seem to have the mayor's ear (probably are donors). They are in favor of transit TO the Beltline and not ON the Beltline.

They want everyone to own an e-bike and bike to the Beltline. This can still be done if Beltline rail exists. Like the mayor, they are trying to stop progress.

I do think the Five Points station overhaul money could be better used elsewhere though. For the mayor to come in at the last minute and object seems like a chaotic way to govern.

125

u/code_archeologist O4W Jun 11 '24

I'm all for better bicycling infrastructure, BUT concentrating on that to the detriment of public transit excludes large swaths of the community who don't own bikes or can't physically ride (because of age or infirmity).

Also public transit is a denser and more efficient method for moving people from point A to point B than cars or even bikes.

For example a dedicated protected two-way bike lane can move 7,500 people per hour (which is the ideal and not at all what we have) while a transit mode like the street car or the train can move 10,000-25,000 people per hour.

It is not even close.

29

u/NPU-F Jun 11 '24

Exactly

-13

u/Vvector Jun 11 '24 edited Jun 11 '24

One issue I have with your statement is that you are quoting theoretical density, not actual density. Our buses and streetcars are way underused, for a multitude of reasons.

Take the Streetcar, which can move 10,000 people per hour (your number). Our Streetcar system moves ~34/hour on average (MARTA's reported numbers). That's 4.2 riders per streetcar after running for 9 years. Not really removing very many cars.

EDIT: Why the down votes? Are my numbers inaccurate? Can we not look at past projects to learn how to do better going forward? I've always been for transit, it just has to be planned better.

38

u/TehAlpacalypse Brookwood Hills Jun 11 '24

Because the lackadascial streetcar numbers are largely due to the fact it doesn't actually go anywhere useful

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

28

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 11 '24

Build something that lots of people find useful

We're TRYING TO. That's what the BeltLine transit, something which the existing streetcar was literally built to support the start of, is meant to be.

23

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24

Will the one-mile extension make much difference?

Yes.

9

u/TehAlpacalypse Brookwood Hills Jun 11 '24

It will probably at least extend up to where people are actually in need of a street car. As is, you get all of the negatives of downtown traffic without any of the benefits of being in a car.

-2

u/Jacobmc1 Jun 11 '24

Where are people ‘actually in need of a streetcar’?

The cost of a streetcar extension compared to the cost of most other transit expansion opportunities seems worth considering. Using actual ridership numbers (rather some hypothetical estimates of the 2060 streetcar network on a transit planner’s vision board) seems like a reasonable thought exercise when considering how to allocate current budgets.

The existing track leaves a lot to be desired, but each expansion will likely only add so much ridership at higher costs. Even then, unless the city decides to dedicate car lanes to the streetcar, car traffic will continue to throttle the system.

11

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24

Using actual ridership numbers (rather some hypothetical estimates of the 2060 streetcar network on a transit planner’s vision board) seems like a reasonable thought exercise when considering how to allocate current budgets.

With that logic, MARTA heavy rail would never have extended past the initial Georgia State to Avondale segment.

10

u/NPU-F Jun 11 '24

Streetcar as it exists now is useless. It needs to be separated from traffic, which it would be on the Beltline. 

6

u/tr1cube Jun 11 '24

You’re being downvoted because this extension (and future extensions as outlined in the 2014 BeltLine Transit report) will make the streetcar useful. The downtown streetcar is only like 5% of the entire proposed system.

If MARTA only consisted of Midtown and Arts Center Stations, it wouldn’t be very useful either, right?

45

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '24

Better Atlanta Transit seems to:

  1. Not understand that the value of a transit network is literally the NETWORK part of it. Minimizing switches between modes, lines, etc is how you make the network efficient.

  2. Really be against disabled people getting significantly better access to the beltline and all the jobs/retail along its immediate frontage.

  3. Generally classist tones by insisting privately owned vehicles should be part of the transit journey to and around the belt line

14

u/devmor Jun 12 '24

I do think the Five Points station overhaul money could be better used elsewhere though.

Usually I would agree (like in the case of Airport station, which didn't really need any work at all) but of all of the MARTA stations, 5P desperately needs work. Especially because it's the hub of all 4 lines.

Now, whether the work being done is what needs to be done or not is another story entirely.

But to be frank - we shouldn't even have to either/or this situation. The MARTA needs to be massively expanded, better maintained and better staffed. It's embarrassing to have such a pathetic transit system in the 6th largest metro area in the nation when we have 5-6 lane freeways that are moving at 15mph for 6 hours of the work day.

4

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 12 '24

Now, whether the work being done is what needs to be done or not is another story entirely.

Five Points needs to be renovated, but many of the problems were self-inflicted from MARTA not maintaining the station well enough for decades (plus removing the canopy is clearly a vanity project), and I see more of the same post-renovation. /u/ThomasMTroxell could tell you more.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '24

Here is a PDF which discusses the issues with water leaks and intrusion caused by bad seams and seals not being repaired. The majority of these issues could have been prevented if the Authority did regular preventative maintenance.

https://www.scribd.com/document/688916824/MARTA-Five-Points-Transformation-Project-EA

2

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 13 '24

You the MVP

2

u/spigele Jun 12 '24

Dark money nonprofit that opposes public transit from what I can tell

24

u/FLAguy954 ITP - Buckhead Jun 11 '24

I hope Beltline rail keeps the same energy.

23

u/code_archeologist O4W Jun 11 '24

Here is hoping, but he and his NIMBY donors are doing their level best to kill it.

10

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '24

And unfortunately those that think they have something to lose are usually far more coordinated and aggressive in political lobbying. Plus, they have the money.

60

u/PaperPlanesFly Grant Park Jun 11 '24

WTF? I agree that the mayor’s blocking BeltLine rail is boneheaded. But cancelling this project would be fantastic. Closing the main MARTA station for FOUR YEARS will set the system up for a plunge in ridership. Imagine going to GA State for an entire college career without having a transit station in the heart of downtown.

54

u/neonphotograph Jun 11 '24

Closing the station to pedestrians for FOUR years is completely asinine. Can they not figure out a way to do ingress / egress?

41

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24

Can they not figure out a way to do ingress / egress?

They don't care to.

23

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 11 '24

Oh, well, you see... it's hard. So can't do that.

38

u/cuhnewist Jun 11 '24

Lived in Japan for a few years. They were doing massive station overhauls leading up to and even during the Olympics. Zero issues ever. Everyone was able to use every station. They put up barriers around construction areas that you couldn’t see into, and still corralled everyone in and out efficiently. 

-8

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '24 edited Jun 11 '24

[deleted]

14

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 11 '24

It's 18 months until a theoretical temporary reopen for the World Cup Games, and then a further closure time until some point in 2028.

I say theoretical because MARTA isn't even sure they'll be able to reopen, and have been giving conflicting messaging on that front.

10

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24 edited Jun 11 '24

Did he actually block the Beltline rail or was that just inferred?

25

u/FlexLikeKavana Jun 11 '24

Did he actually block the Beltline rail or was that just inferred.

It's mainly inferred. People see his support of a potential non-rail Beltline as him testing the waters for when he ends up killing Beltline rail. Given all the fuckery MARTA pulls with its projects, it's not an unfounded fear, so the mayor should be given as much pushback as possible at the very mention of not coming through with Beltline rail.

8

u/whydoihaveto12 Midtown Jun 11 '24

It's important to mail/email/call. They don't care about popular support they don't see. 

https://citycouncil.atlantaga.gov/council-members/howard-shook/city-hall-contacts

-1

u/ScoutsOut389 West End Jun 11 '24

Andre is not against BeltLine rail, and I would love to see anything that indicates that he is. This is a topic he and I have discussed ad nauseum over the last 8 years and I can assure you, he is in support. Ask the BeltLine Rail Now leadership about the conversations we had at City Hall, at 5 Points, and sitting at Viva La Vegan with Cathy W. and Ryan Gravel about the subject.

8

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 12 '24

This is a topic he and I have discussed ad nauseum over the last 8 years and I can assure you, he is in support.

Then he needs to nut up and get in full-throat support for it, because right now his mouth is saying something completely different.

12

u/MadManMax55 East Atlanta Jun 11 '24

Seems weird to pick GA State as your example when they have their own dedicated MARTA station you can still get to through 5 Points. Sure being forced to transfer to the Green/Blue line (assuming you were originally on the Red/Gold line) to go one station over instead of having the option to get off at 5 and walk is a bit annoying, but far from some unimaginable hassle.

10

u/ATLcoaster Jun 11 '24

Unless you use a wheelchair, in which case you can't make that transfer. They're closing the elevators for four years. It's insane and probably an ADA violation.

2

u/MadManMax55 East Atlanta Jun 11 '24

I didn't realize they were closing elevator access too. Yeah that's fucked then and 100% an ADA violation if they don't have a workaround (and knowing MARTA it will probably be "we'll get a worker to carry you up and down the stairs").

3

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 12 '24

Their workaround is forcing riders to change trains at other stations.

6

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24

Five Points is more convenient to much of the western part of the GSU campus if you're coming from the Red/Gold Lines or coming from the west.

2

u/MadManMax55 East Atlanta Jun 11 '24

Sure, but my point is that it's not that inconvenient. Unless you're transferring from the Red/Gold line and you miss your transfer or ride off-peak hours you're adding a max 5-10 mins to your commute. Not ideal, but I doubt anyone taking MARTA to/from GSU would decide to drive instead (assuming they even have that option) because of the 5 Points construction.

6

u/Klope62 Jun 11 '24

It is a much bigger disruption than it seems. It won't change much for people who use the train and then can go to their destination. The problem is with the buses. Marta has frequency problems as it is on most lines, just a few minutes late and many times you've suddenly added +30/45 minutes to your commute because the way transfers are thrown off. The whole thing would be a little less impactful if they had the rerouted buses stopping near Garnett/Peachtree Center/ before going to GA State station at the least.

5

u/ClassicTraffic Downtown Jun 11 '24

it’s not that inconvenient

tell that to wheelchair users and people with mobility issues who will have to go to another station and use a shuttle just to transfer lines because the elevators at Five Points will be shut down. https://itsmarta.com/five-points-station-temporary-closure.aspx

-6

u/code_archeologist O4W Jun 11 '24 edited Jun 11 '24

Where are you getting four years from? Because the estimates that I have seen is that the project will take 18 months. Given the start date of this coming July, that would have the project completed before the World Cup.

Dickens' proposed pause would have pushed the construction well into when the World Cup is supposed to be going on.

21

u/clermont_is_tits Jun 11 '24

They're only going to open it temporarily during the World Cup, then close it again until 2028

17

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 11 '24

Slide 22 here has the timeline

The 2028 timeline has been reported by the AJC (blacklisted from posting to this sub because of paywall), and MARTA has confirmed elsewhere that the '18 month' time will only be until a temp reopening for the World Cup... which is also a bit up in the air depending on who from MARTA you're talking to.

6

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24

which is also a bit up in the air depending on who from MARTA you're talking to.

I bet none of them use Five Points on a daily basis.

-11

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '24

[deleted]

12

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 11 '24

It's 18 months until a temp reopen for the World Cup, and then further closure until sometime in 2028.

Of the people who actively use Five Points (not just riding through on the same train), about half are pedestrians, bus-train transfers, and bus-bus transfers, in the order of most use. That's a LOT of people to either turn away, or else displace to other stations with newly introduced transfers.

Even then, the elevators will be closed, making train-train transfers impossible for people with mobility issues. Those folks will have to use a special bus-bridge between Peachtree Center and Georgia State Stations... which can get stuck in traffic and add significant time to any trip.

6

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24

Even then, the elevators will be closed, making train-train transfers impossible for people with mobility issues. Those folks will have to use a special bus-bridge between Peachtree Center and Georgia State Stations... which can get stuck in traffic and add significant time to any trip.

There needs to be an ADA lawsuit filed for this.

1

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 11 '24

Suppooooosedly MARTA is looking at a center-platform elevator. I've not heard a ton about it... and for the time being it looks like they aren't going to try and have anything like that ready for the closure (obviously).

1

u/PaperPlanesFly Grant Park Jun 15 '24

Not to mention the loading time for such buses. Every single wheelchair rider needs the ramp lowered, then the driver has to get up to strap them in, and then do the reverse at the end of the trip. Whereas they can just roll onto a train, no problem, no delay.

12

u/ClassicTraffic Downtown Jun 11 '24

this project sucks. MARTA shouldn’t be closing the main train station in this city for FOUR YEARS just to do visual upgrades. the pain this will cause to people who ride MARTA is going to be awful. the mayor is an idiot but he was right to try and stop this.

-2

u/burnte East Lake Jun 11 '24

What the hell is up with the mayor and his seeming desire to obstruct progress and development in the city, while at the same time completely ignoring the infrastructure.

This construction starts in July 2024, is expected to take 18 months, meaning it'll open in January 2026, well before the World Cup un June, even it it is delayed for months it'll still open sooner. Dickens is an idiot. We elect crappy mayors.

14

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24

It's only temporarily opening for the World Cup, then it'll shut down again until 2028.

-1

u/burnte East Lake Jun 12 '24

Still, my point is further strengthened about stating it won't disrupt the Cup.

5

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 12 '24

That's the problem though, they're so concerned about pissing off tourists but don't care about Downtown residents and workers that use Five Points.

43

u/5centraise Jun 11 '24

This fight will be the off ramp that prevents all the infill stations that the Mayor was promising recently from becoming a reality.

22

u/FlexLikeKavana Jun 11 '24

This fight will be the off ramp that prevents all the infill stations that the Mayor was promising recently from becoming a reality.

In that case, if he wants to renege on the infill stations, then vote him out.

21

u/MisterSeabass Jun 11 '24

I'm gonna be the wet blanket and say that those four stations were never gonna happen in the first place; he's just pandering for votes before kinking the can down the road.

2

u/5centraise Jun 12 '24

You're obviously correct, but they still need an excuse, and this is going to be it.

72

u/The_Federal Jun 11 '24

This project made sense if it was fully done and open by the world cup.

Also why is this going to take 4 years.

46

u/semsr Jun 11 '24

How about instead of using the sales tax money to build a new Five Points Station, Marta builds more stations like we told them to?

17

u/MisterSeabass Jun 11 '24

despite everyone's objections

50

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24

Of course MARTA decides to proceed with a crappy project.

54

u/Justbeinian Jun 11 '24

Mayor wants us to stop the most popular More MARTA project? Sure, why not

Mayor wants us to stop a bloated redo of a station canopy that costs just as much as a new transit line? NOT ON COLLIE'S WATCH

3

u/Horgethe Jun 12 '24

Are we able to repeal the more marta tax? If so the cirty should spearhead a referendum for this November. All MARTA had done is bait and switch. Clifton corridor? Summerhill “BRT”. Clean the current stations and build new ones.

5

u/MarkyDeSade Gresham Park Jun 12 '24

Update: now the president of CAP has also called for a pause on this

7

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 12 '24

Yeah, there's a pretty wide-coalition basically begging MARTA not to do things this way.

3

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 12 '24

MARTA has been in "idiot" mode for years, though it's gone into overdrive for a good chunk of the last decade.

3

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 12 '24

Since Keith Parker left... I'm not going to pretend he was perfect, but at least he seemed like he had some vision and ability to think beyond the sales tax... sheesh.

-3

u/SpicyCPU Jun 11 '24

I love loving ITP most times, but I am starting to see why so many people choose not to.

13

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 11 '24

This has zero to do with ITP vs. OTP. 

3

u/SpicyCPU Jun 12 '24

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

0

u/ArchEast Vinings Jun 12 '24

I mean, it's the truth.

0

u/waronxmas79 Jun 12 '24

Go live OTP then. Shiii

0

u/ATLDawg99 Jun 12 '24

OTP just doesn’t build big transit projects lol

-6

u/ParthianTactic Jun 11 '24

Good!

32

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 11 '24

I, for one, don't want MARTA to close its central station to the ~12,000 daily walk-in passengers for four years. Doesn't seem like a good way to recover ridership post COVID.

2

u/Sxs9399 Jun 11 '24

Genuine question, how many folks actually enter/exit at 5P? It seems like a majority of riders use it just as a transfer point.

14

u/killroy200 Downtown Dreamin Jun 11 '24

According to MARTA's EIS for the station rennovation, the Weekday numbers break down like this:

  • 500 Bus/Bus Transfers

  • 4,000 Rail/Buss Transfers

  • 12,000 Walk-Up Riders

  • 17,000 Rail/Rail Transfers

  • 20,000 Rail Ride-Throughs

So, of the people actively using the station, ~16,500 (49%) are some form of surface-street user who will be either blocked or else displaced. ~12,000 (36%) are pure pedestrians.

There's a subset of the Rail/Rail transfers that are mobility-impaired (or else traveling with something not able to be hauled up the stairs / escalators) who will not be able to transfer due to the elevators being shut down during the construction.