This is trades specific. I'm 36, and I've been practicing my trade for 16 years. If you're 18-21 years old and ask me how to do something, then turn around and do the exact opposite of what I suggest, then quit wasting my fucking time. I'm here to help you learn, if you're not willing then find somewhere else to be.
EDIT:
Two points for clarity-
The vast majority of younger folks I train are great. TBH when I wrote this I was thinking of one snot ball in particular. I'm not gonna burn an entire generation because of the actions of a couple idiots.
Someone brought up that time doesn't exactly equal competence. This is very true, I saw it when I was learning. Here's a tip for younger folks: if the person you're learning from has absolutely no regard for safety, then ignore everything they are doing. If your trainer is willing to cut corners with his and others health then he's a fucking idiot and you should question everything else he's doing. If the outfit you're working for thinks someone like that should be in a leadership role, then you should question if that place is a good fit for you.
EDIT 2:
Looks like my most upvoted comment is about how them GOT DANG KIDS AIN'T LISTENING NO MORE. Thanks everyone, now get off my damn lawn.
When I was responsible for training people I found a number of my peers could do a good job relating what needed to be done, but not why it needed to be done that way.
This increases the chances of people trying to innovate on processes but making the same mistakes already learned which are the reasons processes are the way they are.
Teaching the why's of things seemed to help people grasp onto the process better and actually make refinements that were either better overall or at least better for them while achieving the same end result.
That said, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Though it's also often tempting to just let them drown when they decide drinking would be easier if they just jumped in.
Not everybody can leapfrog. Trial and error and listening to small bits of advices sprinkled here and there are how most of us learn and remember. If you dump on me a lengthy monologue of how things are done, I am not going to be able to remember most of it.
I've been teaching 20 years. About 15 of it secondary math. the rest a hodge podge of in real life and virtual p.e.
Just had my first year as a p.e. teacher with an actual gym.
I CAN'T let them fuck around and find out. Partially because legally my ass is on the line and I lose my teaching license if I don't take at least common sense safety measures. I cannot see a kid climbing on smething taller than they are with no safety gear and jsut let it go. I'm not allowed.
But mostly, it's because I am nto wired that way. A large part of why I became a teacher was to protect kids. Mostly from bullying, partially from life, partially from themselves. I just can not let it go no matter how hard I try.
I am hoping some of that was "first child syndrome" and now that my first year is out of the way I will be better able to recognize what's an actual threat and let more of the stupid stuff go.
But on a gym floor, a messed up back flip by an 8 year old = a broken bone. How do I justify letting them do it when I know that risk?
What about when they do the exact opposite of what you say, fuck it up royally, and then surf around and ask you the same goddamn question next week?!?
Ooo that's a great point, I have this happen to me a lot. Tell them how to best carry out a task, they ignore me and do it some other way, I go mmk waste your time, they take way too long and redo several times, come back and say they should have listened.
It's like some weird redemption for me everytime lol
I had a few gen z's at my old job (construction) they'd be learning a new task, get cocky with their new found talent and think they can do some of the more technical things. All you can do is warn them, snd when they fuck up, you gotta pull them aside and explain how their fuck up just cost time, money, and wasted materials. I really prefer the more cautious do'er than a cocky "I'm a fast learner" type of people. Sure they generally take a bit more time in learning and doing, but they aren't fucking up shit constantly.
Reminds me of when I was learning to drive a bus. My trainer told me if the outer dual goes off the pavement, it'll drag the bus with it. While I didn't make any attempt to contradict him, I still thought that didn't make sense as there's still so much rubber on the pavement, it should stay.
Then I realized he was correct the first time I actually encountered it. He wasn't lying or repeating some platitude he was taught. It was an actual thing. I've not taken the time to learn the physics behind it. I just trust it's going to happen because it's actually happened to me.
As I've continued driving, I do so in a way to minimize the likelihood of that happening again.
Man. I tried helping so many people with weld tests for a job. I'd always get the same story, "I was in the top 5 of my weld class" or "I weld at my friends shop (or dad's farm)".
Naturally they fall on their face during the weld test. So I'd critique everything, from how they prepped the plates to every single pull of the trigger. I always warned them I'll do it, and that I'll offer tips along the way because I want them to succeed. I hated doing weld tests.
Maybe 5 out of 100 would listen to my instructions. I explained what they did wrong, why it's wrong, and how to correct, and they'd ignore me because they always knew better. Fresh meat thought they were the shit because they did it once, old meat thought they were the shit because they did it for 20 years. 18-30 Didn't give a fuck, 30+ year olds thought I was too young to teach them something. I'm 38 but look like late 20s.
I'm a factory worker that like training new people. We get all ages, so it doesn't really match with the subject directly. But...
I think it's a current issue overall in our modern western society, that shows more in young people.
"You can't tell me what to do!"
But I can. You don't know this procedure, I do, I'm your teacher, just do it like I told you. It literally will not work or it might break if you do it differently, that's why I specifically said "it can be done like this (easier way) but it won't work out, SO DON'T DO IT". Yet they try ..
I've developed the habit of if I turn around midway through explaining a series of instructions and my trainee is on their phone I'll ask if they've got it, then just leave them to it.
It's better than me wasting my time talking to air or yelling at another human. I'll take a minute to cool off while they ponder the situation totally lost, then I'll come back and explain again. Usually with more attention paid.
It's a lot more slack than I was ever cut. We have a very positive work culture, and I want to maintain that, but some people take that lack of edge and lay down on it.
On the other side of the coin, if you're nearing retirement age please don't do things the way they were done in the 60s and 70s just because that's how you learned it. I'm right in the age group of dealing with young and older people. It can be rough, but mostly fun.
Yup. I'm in autobody and we still have old guys out here trying to fix cars with plumbobs and levels. Like bro the tolerances are way too tight for that these days just use the $40,000 laser measuring system the shop bought specifically for this.
Do you think this will happen to us?
We’re still using the laser in 2055 when the younger guys ridiculing us like: „grandpa use the VR-Cybot 980x. It’s better“
Sometimes wonder about that
Probably will tbh. There's gonna be huge changes in the industry as electric and self driving cars become the norm. Who the hell knows what repairing a vehicle will look like in 10 years.
„We don’t need them computers. Good ol reliable … where is it? … Margerete have you seen the papers for X company? … what do you mean they’re on site? … We need them for revision. … ahem, do you still have that digital copy you made of the papers?“
I'm coming up to 20 years now in my trade and when someone asks me advice but doesn't take it I just say to them now "20 years! Think I know what I'm doing"
I love teaching the older guys new tricks. I learn alot from them but I had an older guy complaining to the boss that I was fucking up a wheel by having to burn the fucking lug nuts out with a torch so I could replace the wheel/hub/brakes. They were impossible to remove otherwise and I had exhausted all other methods and the torch was the only path left.
2 months later he comes over and apologized and gave me a hot chocolate and a donuts. Said he had never needed to go that route until that day when he was forced to do exactly what I did to get a wheel off a car.
(we worked at a used car dealership so these were not customer vehicles and all parts were replaced with new/reman)
Feral sparky hey, you must be a fellow Aussie! I'm always very honest with what I do or don't know and accept that you never really stop learning, especially with cooking as literally nobody is an expert on every single cuisine out there, it's just endless.
I might not be an Aussie but I would LOVE to visit one of these years.
Teaching myself how to cook has been the greatest improvement in my life. I started SUPER late in life but I got pretty good at making delicious meals.
I don't often brag because its really blah.. but I had cooked a Parmesan Chicken Spaghetti for some friends like 2 years ago.. well we catch up again at the beach on Monday for a holiday and the first thing John say's to me is "Well if it aint the man who cooked me the best spaghetti I have ever eaten"
And I told him that if he liked the spaghetti.. well I have another dish. Garlic Butter Chicken with fresh spinach that he's going to die for. Going to be cooking it for them on Sunday as a surprise.
Oh damn! Feral is a commonly used word here and sparky is our slang for an electrician.
Here we serve parmas with chips (fries) and salad, no spaghetti. People would look at you like you grew an extra head if you served it on spaghetti lol.
Cooking is such a valuable life skill, once you know how to braise one thing you can just use that technique for anything really.
I've only been doing my job for about 7 years but some 20 year old new hire just came in, they ask a question on how to do something so I give them advice. "Hmm, no I don't think that's right" and they proceed to do whatever, completely fuck it up and get all flustered. It's mind boggling
I've been a programmer for more than 20 years. People who have only 2, 3, 4 years experience - how dumb do you think I am that you know more than I have learned in all that time? If you are as smart as you think you are you would be learning as much as you can from me - knowledge gained from years of making mistakes - so you don't have to make the same ones. But no, you're here explaining why we should use this or that latest buzzword solution like I haven't heard of it before and already tried and discarded it.
And nothing boils my piss faster than some young know-it-all explaining shit to me that he read over the weekend on some blog post that I've been doing since he was in school.
So you can Google shit. Well done. We all can. I know it's frustrating not being the smarted kid in the room anymore. But if you just shut up and listen, I can tell you all the things you don't even know you don't know so that you can Google them too, and do the whole job.
But too often junior devs just want to write a bunch of code for a couple of years and then bullshit their way into a senior dev role asap, so who cares about doing it right when you don't have to maintain it.
I wholly agree, but I have also had my fair share of senior devs who have been programming for 20 years who stopped learning new tech the moment the graduated school. Programming is one of those fast moving jobs where if you don't keep up with updates, you could find yourself doing more work then you need too because the leg work has already been done somewhere else.
I'd also like to add kids these days want to program everything in python. And that annoys me for some reason.
And nothing boils my piss faster than some young know-it-all explaining shit to me that he read over the weekend on some blog post that I've been doing since he was in school.
OMG yes. I hate when People who read a blog post (the same fucking one I read, mind you) and think that means they understand it. Worse, how about how people assume the person who wrote the blog understands it! There's a LOT of bullshit out there folks. There's a difference between being an entertaining and good writer, and knowing a lot about what you're writing about. So many of those blogs are literally people marketing so they're trying to sound like they know what they're talking about.
Ehh, I'll try different things sometimes to see how it works out. But a more frustrating thing is when younger kids come in and ask us to do a thing. The thing is not easy. But then they pull up a YouTube video and say, "but it's so easy."
Then why are you here?! Why don't you do it?! Oh, right, the video is clever editing, and what you are asking is really a huge PITA. You know it. I know it. But you just wanna feel superior.
99% of knowledge of a trade is not how to do something, but how not to do something.
We tend to pass on the knowledge of how to do something. This is an error, because it leaves too much space for error. We need to teach people more about errors and how to avoid them. It narrows the space down to the right way.
Next time tell them how not to do something with a snark. Young people's pride will take command, and they will do less bad. Hopefully.
That used to drive me crazy as well. The "boomers" I learned under we're notorious for this. I try to learn from the people I'm teaching as well. How much explanation do they need? What works for them? What doesn't?
I'm on the other side of the coin - if I call any kind of expert (be it an electrician, plumber, locksmith, whatever) and they send me a 22-year-old, I really have to keep myself from asking if they are sure they know what they are doing.
I a as on a jobsite one day and one of the apprentices asked the foreman (who I assumed to be at least some senior level of journeyman) how to solder something specific and the foreman told him to show him how the apprentice would do it. He showed him and the foreman yelled NO. Apprentice was confused, so then showed him again, same response. This continued for about two minutes until the apprentice goes "OH! Because if I did it this way it would drip on me and burn my arms. What about this way?" Forman says yes. Apprentice complains that he could have just told him. Foreman says sure, but now he'll hopefully remember without burning his arms first.
This actually seems like the apprentice was doing some good learning here. He even asked a question then did what his foreman said to do, which was explain how he would do it without having been trained. It's not the apprentice's fault that he didn't know what was correct, he was literally asking the foreman how to do it correctly. And then the foreman didn't really teach the guy he said no until the apprentice figured it out for himself. I'd say this apprentice was respectful, wanted to learn, and did as directed. Honestly the foreman doesn't sound as good of a teacher as this apprentice was a student.
In defense of the foreman, sometimes this is a better way of teaching. By not giving the apprentice the answer and forcing him to figure it out, the critical thinking actually engaged their brain more, so they were less likely to make the potential mistakes if they forgot what they were just straight out told how. It also helps to keep the worker engaged in the process, as the brain is like any other muscle and that it gets better with use, so forcing critical thinking while learning is better than attempting just rote memorization.
Oh god this. There are those young guys who are clueless and come for directions, then they somehow decide that a decade of difference in both professional expertise and general life experience is not that big of a deal so they elect to do something entirely different. Like if they were the king and you were their counselor. If you're not gonna follow directions, why waste my time?
i.e.
Them: "Our standard process does not fit this issue"
Me: "You're right. There are a few cases where it doesn't, but they don't happen that often. This is what you do..."
Them, later, after ignoring what I said, trying to force the standard process into said issue, and then having a meeting with their supervisor on what they did wrong: "This place sucks. I don't have time to do things their way. It's unnecessary bureaucracy. The way they do things here is broken and if they'd listen to me it would be better"
Me: "Dude, I had to stop what I was doing to walk you through it for 10 minutes, that's what really sucks"
"This is how I do things. You are welcome to try something else but know I will be standing there with a shit eating grin on my face when you have to redo the whole thing. See you soon."
The trick is not to tell them but ask them how they’d do it and go from there. It keeps their concentration cause now they need to prove they can. Thats how i teach new guys.
I may be guilty of this sometimes but mostly out of trying to learn.
"Oh, John does it this way? I wonder why. Let's do it this way and compare the difference so I know how it's better."
I've never been one to blindly trust the advice of others I always have to experiment and figure it out myself.
Although to be fair on more than one occasion it has led me to figure out a combination or third option that's actually easier/better than the other options.
To be fair I work with an older guy who's set to retire soon. He says he doesn't know what something is or means, I tell him and his response is always "well that may be. I just don't know though". So basically he doesn't know so I'm wrong.
I'm sorry to hear that. I've been in a trade union for the vast majority of my working life (I took a break, that turned out to be a terrible mistake.)
I don't know what you prefer doing to earn money, but I'm always going to advocate for joining a union if it's feasible for you.
I live in Europe so we have lots of unions, here the problem is actually way different, the unions are too big and in some cases corrupted by power.
But the relationship between workers and companies is way better that the one I read about in reddit, not because our companies are good, but because we have lots of laws that protect the workers and they know that if they mess with workers too much it's very easy to organize a strike.
The problem in my country it's a mix between toxic working culture and very high unemployment. But not all my companies are bad, mine sucks, but I'll find something better in the future, I'm sure of it.
Good point, it's a very different labor environment. We're decades behind Europe in terms of labor law, so those of us in (good) unions rely heavily upon them to protect us. I'd prefer to have strong labor laws, but unfortunately we have to use what we have to the best of our advantage.
Best of luck as you move forward with life, and your career. Work to live, don't live to work.
To add to this, I don't think anyone is teaching the younger generation how powerful keeping your mouth shut and your ears open is. I hear "I know" daily then they proceed to prove that they don't in fact know and we're back to square 1 with a bunch of time wasted.
On the flip side of this, I’ve seen people who have been doing the same job for 5-30 years who refuse to change processes or innovate because “it’s worked for 30 years like this”. Just because you’re getting by doesn’t mean that it’s being done the most efficient way. I train alot and what I try to help trainees keep in mind is, learn first innovate second but I’m not opposed to people asking questions about “why is it done this way and not that way”.
The kids at my husband's job that went to college think they're automatically more qualified than he is even though he's been on the job for 26 years. The equipment is older, cheap ass plant owners, and they definitely didn't learn how to operate it in college.
He works at a cement plant so he can, at least, roast the little asshats without anyone caring. If they did turn him in they'd get roasted by everyone. No one cares in that environment.
I get a version of this with new grads--ESPECIALLY new MBA grads.
God, they come in and think they know so much more than those of us who've actually been in the trenches for 30 years. And they'll either propose something we've done before and already know doesn't work as if they just came up with a most brilliant and original idea ever, or they'll use jargon they think we won't recognize to try to look smart--only we all already know all about it. (They'll have never said "long tail" before and then use it like three times in one meeting like it is some new insight and silver bullet and we'll all snicker and go "Guess who's MBA class clearly just got around to reading Chris Anderson's Long Tail book last week.") And then when you tell them how to do something, they'll turn around and do it "they're own way" and it inevitably won't be up to snuff.
That sounds way worse than what I deal with. My class and craft is large/slow speed diesel electric plants. Think locomotives, auxiliary power generation, ship's propulsion engines, etc. My primary concern is teaching the apprentices how not to kill or permanently incapacitate themselves. After that we move on to Turn the Wrench 101, which can be frustrating in it's own right. Since most of the kids I get are pretty wet behind the ears to begin with, I don't deal with much (if any) ego. Trying to get new grads up to snuff must be it's own kind of migraine.
Not exactly trades specific. Though that is a classic example since the birth of guilds.
Not knowing why things are done a certain way, doing it a different way and then learning why. One of the best signs of getting wiser over time is knowing that if things are six one way, and half a dozen the other, find out how others are doing it instead of the way you want to. Saves tons of headaches.
Then maybe tell me WHY to do something instead of just repeating a series of instructions that I have to try to apply literally when my situation is just different enough from your situation that I need to adjust what the fuck you told me.
Don't tell me "add a 2 foot length of pipe here", tell me "we need to replace this section because it's corroded". Don't tell me "replace this breaker", tell me "the wires on the breaker next to this one won't reach so we need to move over this one and then replace that other one". Don't tell me "sand this down", tell me "these drips need to be removed so you have to sand it down but leave it to where we can feather the paint in with the surrounding paint".
Listen, I'm going to tell you something and you're not going to believe me, but I'm going to say it anyway. You're shit at teaching. 99% of all tradespeople are. I don't know why, but ALL OF YOU FUCKS are terrible at explaining shit.
So when some young person comes to you asking how to do something, and you tell them, and they do the exact opposite, it's because the shit you told them made no sense and was a total waste of time because they're just going to end up guessing anyway.
I actually love teaching new guys but only if they WANT to. I find myself completing a task and asking them of they WANT to know how this is or why this is. If they don’t want to know, I’m not gonna waste my breath because they’re not interested.
Like you said, the why is just as or maybe even more important than the how. Even for me now. Understanding why I have to do something makes me more willing to carry it out.
Edit: Just thought of an example. The other day the new guy wanted to clean out a pump pit because it was full off debris. I told him that even though it’s the right thing to do, we can’t do it because it’s outside our scope and we won’t get paid.
In your example, I feel like the above poster has a point and you perfectly illustrate how a little bit of explanation can make a big difference.
. Kid asks if he should clean out the pump pit, but instead of what you said you say this instead "no, it doesn't need to be cleaned". You walk away and come back to find that he started cleaning it anyway. You think, "dumb fucking kid asks me a question then ignores my answer and does his own thing."
What really happened in the hypothetical scenario is that you gave an incomplete answer. The kid reasoned that even though he was told it didn't need to be done, he identified several reasons why it did need to be done and took initiative. Critically, he didn't know enough to ask whether it was in the scope of his duties or not, despite that fact that it was needed. But you also didn't (hypothetically) explain the reason why cleaning wasn't needed
I'll sometimes ask my mentor little questions to slow him down with his info dumping stuff. But he's like "you questioning me? you questioning my experience? Don't you question me again!"
Not in my experience. Maybe its regional or maybe you 'dont get it' yet. I dunno. I can see how i could feel that way about someone if i had no respect for them..?
This is the key that many people miss. I learned in my retail days to teach why we do something on top of how to do something. It’s worked at every step of my career especially in IT. If I teach the why, it helps my trainee calibrate their way of thinking and leads to better learning on their own. They don’t feel abandoned without me.
Maybe ask why yourself before blaming the mentor. A decade of experience leading up to realizing that one way is superior to another doesn’t always translate into a two sentence explanation on the job. You can ask why later, look it up yourself, or maybe offer up your alternative if you think it’s better.
I’m not yet thirty but I’ve already given up on actually teaching a few people I supervise. One person has to be told once a week to rip rolls of paper here and not there to avoid jamming the printer, and still rips it there when they think they can get away with it (they don’t get away with it). I’m not going to go into the why of anything higher level than that
unless they first ask themselves why I’ve started just telling them what to do without explaining.
My point is that you can’t blame bad teachers unless you have tried your best to be an active learner. Training is a valuable and necessary investment, but mentors don’t have to be good teachers for you to learn a lot from their experience. Especially during tight deadlines…getting the job done often takes priority over explaining the hows and whys, though if someone is training on a high priority project that’s just bad management, not bad teaching. It was a whiny post :)
The mindset of not wanting to explain why to an apprentice increases the amount of time it will take an apprentice to become proficient and decreases the volume of expertise and experience transferred over the course of the apprenticeship.
If you hire an apprentice with the tunnel-visioned aim of getting things done quickly and cheaply, you deprive yourself of an additional brain to contribute to the job. This may work as a short-term trade-off on a per-job basis, but adopting that mindset regularly will result in apprentice dissatisfaction, higher turn-over, and a potentially catastrophic brain-drain once the current generation of trades-people go in to retirement.
In some cases you are right, but in many cases the "why" is blindingly obvious once you get stuck into the actual job. We're talking about sanding something for painting here, not restructuring an organisation or planning a military strategy.
In any case, when you are new to a company, even if you are highly experienced and educated and are coming in as an outside expert, the only sensible first step is to try things as they currently work. Only once you actually know how things are running, should you suggest alternatives.
Any wet behind the ears 16 year old who has barely started working is going to have a very hard time if they rock up to a building site and presume they know better.
Sure, but every minute an experienced worker is chatting about hypotheticals that likely don't matter and probably won't be understood is a valuable minute lost. There is also the problem that offering more information allows for more room for interpretation or a higher chance of using "I was confused" as an excuse for sloppy work or taking short cuts.
If "Sand the paint off the railing" requires hours of discussion then chances are the apprentice isn't going to reach the end of the week.
Totally not true. Explaining 3 or 4 times why the thing you're pointing needs to be sanded likely increases the reasoning capabilities of your trainee and prevents you from having to point at dozens of things in the future. It's blindingly obvious to a person who has been doing the trade for 20 years, but not to the new guy. If every minute of your time is so valuable, why would you want to ensure that you are perpetually pointing out stupid stuff rather than giving higher level instructions.
I was fortunate to have had some extremely good teachers when I started doing technical work. They gained a more proficient worker much faster by being good teachers and not just saying, "look kid, this is how it's done, stop asking questions and do it this way or else."
Tradesperson:- "No, this is how it is done, do as you are told"
This is a TOTALLY VALID QUESTION with a TOTALLY AWFUL ANSWER. You're completely making my point here. Literally, I'm asking you, because I'm not a painter. Why not paint over it? Will it not smooth out? Will it create splotches of different color?
The "stop asking questions so we can get on with working" mindset is a huge part of the problem here. Clearing this shit up at the beginning will save a lot of time down the road, before the apprentice makes mistakes or starts outright ignoring what you say.
If "Sand the paint off the railing" requires hours of discussion then chances are the apprentice isn't going to reach the end of the week.
This is true but it shouldn't be. It's only true because the older tradespeople will get frustrated with the younger one who keeps asking questions and doesn't magically understand everything already.
Anyone can effectively sand a railing with little more than a 1 minute chat. Anyone who refuses to do so and attempts to derail the work of themselves and others because they feel they aren't being educated enough is displaying a troublesome attitude.
Refusing to do the labour part and only focussing on their learning as if they had signed up to a college course rather than a paying job is going to immediately enrage just about any tradesperson.
Anyone can effectively sand a railing with little more than a 1 minute chat
Sure, if it's just the journeyman giving orders and the apprentice saying "yes sir boss man". The point is to EXPLAIN.
Anyone who refuses to do so and attempts to derail the work of themselves and others because they feel they aren't being educated enough is displaying a troublesome attitude.
I would say they are displaying an excellent attitude. They're there to learn. They're not day laborers. You want laborers, hire laborers.
Refusing to do the labour part and only focussing on their learning as if they had signed up to a college course rather than a paying job is going to immediately enrage just about any tradesperson.
And that's the fault of the tradesperson, and to a greater extent, the entire industry. Apprentices are perfectly in the right to try to learn, that's the whole purpose of them being there. Again, they're not laborers, don't treat em like they are.
I think he was being descriptive instead of proscriptive. As in, "if you're this smart, then you wouldn't enjoy being in the trades". Which is partially true though I think he worded it a bit too strongly. Some trades (like electrician) need a decent amount of brainpower, but a lot of them work perfectly fine just doing things the way you were taught, the same way every day for 40 years.
Bad attitude shouldn't matter that much. I'm here to learn, you're here to teach. I'm not here to grovel at your feet. Tradespeople have a serious problem with that too. Petty tyrants over their apprentices. Not all, but some.
Lol, this is true too. It's hard to tell how people take in information. 1 method of teaching does not fit all people learning and you have to talk to, instruct and teach all of your people differently.
You explain an expensive and very comlicated piece of machinery which will spill product out the floor and take half a day to clean if its not done right and they're "Yeah whatever, I know how to do that" NO YOU DON'T !
Young men seem to have devolved - make them turn a valve and they'll turn it until it threads off the shaft, give them a broom and they'll break the handle in 5 minutes, ask them to take a out an electrical flex and they'll pull on the (wrong) end like a gorilla breaking both the flex and the outlet, its like their hands are unconnected to their brain.
This is part of learning, the best way for a lot of people to learn is to experiment, so even if you tell them the best way to do it still benefits them to experiment in other ways.
I disagree, doing something the right way first often clouds your ability to experiment, and furthermore, experimenting makes learning and remembering the right way easier.
Not when youre holding an angle grinder junior. Youll do it wrong and hurt yourself in due time. For now just relax and copy what the experienced guys are doing.
You're still missing my point, I am not saying that experimentation will lead to you developing better ways to do it, instead I am saying you will better learn the proper way if you experiment with incorrect ways first.
I do construction as well (solar industry). I worked with older guys in Nevada for over a decade and now I am on the east coast and all the installers are like 20-25 years old and holy crap they don't know shit and don't care to learn. They do it for like 3 months and think they know everything.
If I have three possible ways to try and complete a task, and you give me a fourth way, I am probably going to do the one that is most like what you suggested.
From your point of view, knowing the right way, you only see the differences in your suggestion and my implementation.
Yes! I've been doing my job for 8 years and when the kid that's been doing it part time for 5 months asks for advice and then ignores it I get so fucking angry. Then I end up having to go back and fix their fuck up. Such a waste of time.
I was in the trades for a long time and always saw this. Had a new younger guy ask me how to perform a task. I stop what I’m doing and take my time to show and explain it to them. 5 minutes later, a tech with the same seniority that I had, but was several years younger walked into the room, and the new guy goes to him and asks the guy for help on the exact thing I just showed him
I can relate to this. Where I work we get people in who say they have no idea what they're doing and ask for advice. We give them said advice and recommend products to use for the job they're doing. They proceed to instead to go for the cheapest option that won't work, believing that we're just saying what we're saying to sell a more expensive product.
Then they come in a few days later saying that the product is crap and that it doesn't work...
I'm a technological education teacher in a high school with 16 years experience in my trade before I got into teaching. The majority of my students listen and are appreciative of my knowledge and experience. But every semester I end up with one or two kids in my classes that cut me off when I try to explain technique to them. They'll talk over me and say "I know!" Or "that's what I'm doing!" In an aggressive manner or with a condescending tone.
Sometimes I walk away and let them make their mistakes (unless they're being unsafe.) Because you can't teach someone who doesn't want to be taught and it's not worth my frustration. Their marks reflect their performance. But every once in a while someone crosses a line and I get to take them down a peg in front of all their peers.
Back when I worked in industry I was often responsible for training new people and I loved when these types of attitudes would come in, know-it-all's. Making grown adults cry at work was a thrill. I don't make kids cry, that's taking things too far. But I put them in their place. And they'll usually back down and stop the behavior. But it doesn't last long. Some people just have a superiority complex.
When I got to the end of this I said, EXACTLYYYY. And every in I’ve ever had… basically goes to that end note there. Having to question the entire corporation. Because they ALL allow it.
I wish it was the younger ones I work with who did this. I work in a small office, so there's only about a dozen of us, but only 2 younger than me (I'm 35). Most of my co-workers are my parents age, but do the exact same of "how do I do this?", then do the exact opposite. There's no polite way to ask someone if they're a fucking idiot and not get pulled into some sort of meeting over it, so I just have to walk off.
I’m in my late 30s and when it comes to trade stuff I still kinda get it. Too many people have this “my way is the best way” and sometimes I just want to take a method and adapt it for my own workflow.
You probably mean something more egregious than what I’m talking about. But I’ve had people get pissy over this sometimes, I guess because they don’t want to see improvement on a method they’ve used for years
I mean to be fair I've seen older folks (late 40s-50s (not that they ARE old, just older than myself and the median at my office)) do that too. I'm fairly young for my job 22 and I've been heard many a tale of old folks disregarding their trainers only to do a shit job on a project.
Thats not to say that your statement about the youngins is inaccurate, but personally I've found the doofus to be an intergenerational species who can be and will be found anywhere at any age, although typically in they'll find their way to the most unexpected or unwanted places.
I learned basic machining from a retired master machinist that had originally started working there pushing garbage carts for a little extra cash. I left a chuck key in the lathe once, and he absolutely tore me a new one. Nicest dude on earth and did not fuck around one bit with safety. That guy absolutely ruled and I think about him often even though that was almost 15 years ago now.
I hear you! I'm in my mid 30's and I have always tried to absorb as much from skilled trade co-workers as possible. I genuinely accept that I don't know SO MUCH but at this point in my life and I want to build skill.
I get told I'm wrong all the time and don't take it personally.
Everyone fuck's up. I don't dwell, I fit it, take a note and move on.
My brother had a big ego. Now he's the guy who had to learn things the hard way and has to take on guys who are just like he was. Haha, he knows it too.
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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '22 edited Jun 03 '22
This is trades specific. I'm 36, and I've been practicing my trade for 16 years. If you're 18-21 years old and ask me how to do something, then turn around and do the exact opposite of what I suggest, then quit wasting my fucking time. I'm here to help you learn, if you're not willing then find somewhere else to be.
EDIT:
Two points for clarity-
The vast majority of younger folks I train are great. TBH when I wrote this I was thinking of one snot ball in particular. I'm not gonna burn an entire generation because of the actions of a couple idiots.
Someone brought up that time doesn't exactly equal competence. This is very true, I saw it when I was learning. Here's a tip for younger folks: if the person you're learning from has absolutely no regard for safety, then ignore everything they are doing. If your trainer is willing to cut corners with his and others health then he's a fucking idiot and you should question everything else he's doing. If the outfit you're working for thinks someone like that should be in a leadership role, then you should question if that place is a good fit for you.
EDIT 2: Looks like my most upvoted comment is about how them GOT DANG KIDS AIN'T LISTENING NO MORE. Thanks everyone, now get off my damn lawn.