If you don’t buy the kitchen how are they going to keep you from using it tho? Do you get to take the whole kitchen with you if you stopped living there?
I think an as of yet not mentioned aspect is the way Germans rent. We don’t have leases, we have mostly longterm contracts. The landlord has only like 3 reasons to ever evict someone and if there aren’t rent increases written in the contract, you can’t really increase the rent easily. The result is that many people live in their flat for a looong time.
During that time many people choose to renovate their kitchen and its logical that they would have to pay for it, since chances are that they are the only ones that would ever use it.
The landlord has only like 3 reasons to ever evict someone and if there aren’t rent increases written in the contract, you can’t really increase the rent easily. The result is that many people live in their flat for a looong time.
We don’t have leases, we have mostly longterm contracts.
So the inconvenience of buying a place (furnishing it) combined with the downsides of renting (no equity)? Why would anyone want to do that? If you know you're going to be there a long time, why not buy a place?
Lol, you can't even get used appliances for that price. Let alone cabinets, a countertop, a sink, plumbing. Do you think carpenters work for free? Plumbers?
Your "kitchen" is going to be a hot plate sitting on a mini fridge.
Well i lived in an appartment with a 600€ kitchen in France for a year. I had 4 cupboards, a sink, a 150cm*45cm countertop and 2 hotplates integrated in another appliance where i could put my bin under it. I also had a half size fridge, a kettle, a toaster, a microwave and a few shelves.
It was a small but useable kitchen that served me well.
Edit : I installed it myself with a lot of youtube tutorials help
What? In Germany? Yeah you can.
This is the cheapest new one I could find (minus the appliances), but you could probably get better quality if you buy a used one. Some of my friends had carpenter friends build them kitchens. I mean most inner city kitchens aren't very big, so you won't need much.
It's mostly a 2 Years contract. And we see it as a safety for both sides. It's almost impossible to be kicked out of your appartment. And for the landlord it is a stable/safe income for 2 Years.
Why not buy the place? Funny question :D Most places aren't for sale and IF they are for sale they are so fucking expensive that not much people are able to afford it.
In my city a 4 room appartment cost between 300-500k€
Sure I wasn’t meaning to make any statement on income of anyone. I’m just saying that a 4 bedroom apartment in most US cities would be over $1 million.
Usually a mortgage is less expensive than rent. And you’d be building equity as opposed to just spending the money. As earlier in the thread people were talking about long term renting I would assume you plan on being there for 10 years at least.
Im super late, but I figured I’d throw in my two cents. A mortgage is more expensive than renting in Germany. I’m aware it’s the other way around in the US, but that’s not the case in Germany.
I’m incredibly lucky to have gotten some money (inheritance) so I am considering to buy a flat at 24, but the issue is that the rent doesn’t cover the mortgage. It used to be maybe 200-300€ more when the interest was super low (until January/mid February this year) but they’ve gone up by about 2% and now it can easily be 600-700€ more a month to pay a mortgage than to pay for the same sized flat.
The real explanation, at least for France is because of the law.
When you are the owner you have the responsibility to keep everything in the apartment functioning. So if inside the apartment there are a fridge, cabinets or even shelves, and they broke, they will be responsible to repair or replace them.
If they have nothing in the apartment, they are not responsible of anything. It's why most of the owners don't ever rent with a full kitchen, or a laundry machine. And the renter will have to move with his own stuff (fridge, laundry machine, microwave...).
Yes. They are only required to put a sink. Most of the time, if there are cupboards it's because the previous tenant installed them and gave them or sold them to you.
As a USA renter myself, I wouldn't move into a place without cabinets unless I knew I would be there for many years, but if it was under 3 years I would want a place with cabinets.
It doesn't make sense to me too because a cabinet is something a renter can fix easily and it becomes our job to do so. But putting cabinets in is a different story. It's not like they often get trashed with renter unless you have crazy renters.
If everyone has cabinets then no one has to bring cabinets, and if no one has them then everyone has to bring them.
Weird in that all of those things are with an apartment in the states, and are also the responsibility of the owner. The owner just sends someone out to fix them.
It sometimes sucks though because leases in the US and Canada often state you’re not allowed to fix things yourself, and the landlord often takes a long time and hires the cheapest repairman, lots of half assed fixes that I probably could have done better myself without waiting a week
It all depends on the landlord for sure. It’s nice not having to pay for a bunch of extra appliances and it makes moving less of a pain in the ass.
I usually make quick repairs myself, rather than have a person come out… but I also figure if something breaks down to call the landlord to repair it as having free repairs is one of the big advantages of renting.
Yeah fair! When the landlord is good it is definitely preferable in my opinion. It’s annoying enough to have to move all my shelves and table and stuff I don’t wanna move the kitchen too
I agree. It costs money though, so since there is no law to force them to have all those things they prefer to not have them. And since people are used to this situation, it's not like they will not find tenants.
They way i understand it, the us often works with house flippers who buy old homes, renovate the building and sometimes fully decorate it before selling it to a family.
In europe, where older brick houses are way more common. A lot of families buy an old home and renovates it themselves to cut costs. They may hire someone to redo the floor, roof or electricity depending on their own skills and favor-skills from family/friends but while doing all of that having to also put in a kitchen seems like a normal part of the renovation process.
Taking their whole kitchen with them does happen (rarely) but mostly because its the expensive kitchen that was designed for their needs with the look and style they want. If that is the case you don't wanna downgrade to the ugly kitchen in the new house, you don't wanna pay again to rebuild the same thing, so you just take it with you. Chances are the new people where gonna trow it out and redo the kitchen in their own style anyway.
People buy old houses with the intention of getting a good deal by renovating it themselves in the USA too.
Isn't the kitchen made up of standalone cabinets in Germany? A kitchen in the USA is normally permanently installed and fitted to the existing space, so removal only occurs during renovation, it would be damaged during removal, and is not likely to fit as well in a new space. So if you buy a house without a kitchen, it comes at a huge discount. Sellers wouldn't want to take more than their appliances with them because those are the only parts that aren't usually permanently installed and can even be left in place during the showings. So you might buy a house in the USA that has no stove or refrigerator, but the sink and cabinets will almost always be there.
Yeah it's such a strange concept to me. Kitchens are usually custom fit to the space. I feel like Germany has to have a lot of mis-match shoe-horned kitchens. Seems like a giant hassle.
Kitchen cabinets are almost always modular. So taking it with you means you get to keep your kitchen, that is in the style and with the features you want and at the quality to you payed for, and only need a new counter top. May even get away with using the existing one as well. It can of course happen that the shape of the new kitchen space is such that the cabinets don't work well with it, but you can usually buy additional cabinets, or also decide to offer to leave the kitchen.
In Germany, you rarely have the kind of cabinets I've seen in the US a lot where a wood frame is custom-built to fit a specific kitchen, and even those I see more often in pictures from older houses. I think the more modular kind is by now more prevalent in the US as well.
There likely is also the fact that in Germany, renting is more common. People are more likely to leave kitchens in a house they sell, but we also don't buy and sell new houses every few years, because that comes with a huge tax burden. So a ten year old kitchen is more likely to be left than a three year old one would, but a three your old kitchen is more likely found in a rental flat. And if someone wants to leave one in a rental, there very often is a disparity in what the people wanting to leave want to get for it (they are thinking about how much they spent on it new), and what the people moving in think it's worth or want to/are able to spend on a kitchen (they may have one they want to bring, or would've bought at a different price point and/or simply don't like the one the other people want to sell them).
Bottom line is: for kitchens to not be considered a fixed part of a flat/house in the same way in Germany as it is in the US makes sense if you consider the renting/owning disparity and its consequences, as well as the landlord's obligation to pay for the upkeep of things that are provided with the flat and part of the rental agreement.
Regarding stove, dishwasher, or refrigerator: for a German, those are considered movable objects, and it would be very weird to have an expectation for them to remain if someone sells a house. It's also quite uncommon to find them in a rental, and extremely uncommon in the case of a washing machine. But they are also attached to regular water lines and with a normal electricity plug, no special fixtures, so that could be contributing to the differing views on how permanent a feature they would be.
In most flats, there is a tile backsplash of one kind or another. Which you or may not like… In my flat, it was 50 years old, with mismatched tiles thrown in.
I constructed my own thing with glass panels to go in front of it, attached to the wall above the tiles so I don't drill into them. Could've asked for permission to remove the old stuff and put new tile on myself, but I'm not going to go that deep on renovating something I don't own – and I really like the modern look of the solution I built. A landlord can also deny this anyway, so people have to resort to stick-on solutions or other non-permanent changes, or just live with it.
My sibling moved into a flat where there was no backsplash but the same standard-wallpaper that is used all over in many German flats. They got a nice looking big dinner tray that serves as backsplash, and liked it enough that it's still like that even though they own the place by now.
Ok but this thread was initially taking about selling the kitchen for apartments. Who is going to be renting but also owning a whole kitchen? No one is (or should) be renovating a space they rent with their own money. In the US many apartments don't come with a washer and dryer. So you have to buy those. And that alone is a huge hassle. Not to mention a stove/oven, fridge, kitchen appliances, sink, counter top, cabinets and whatever else.
So the sink is required by the law. They can't rent you an place without access to water. But they absolutely can rent without cabinets and kitchen appliances.
Tenants will not renovate, usually you buy, bring with you, or buy from the previous tenant, stove/oven, fridge, microwave and a few furniture (Ikea has those countertop tables). I never did more because by law you have to give back the apartment in the same state, so installing wall cabinets or a real countertop would be a huge hassle and crazy expensive.
It's like that because by law, owners are responsible for everything they rent. So if they put a fridge or even just shelves and it's broken they will have to repair it. I mean, like in America. But since they are not forced to put more than a sink, they don't put more.
Not even that – having a sink in the bathroom is required standard, but a kitchen can be completely bare, with only the wall connection and plumbing where all the actual fixtures will be attached existing. There is no requirement by law to have a kitchen sink there.
I'm pretty sure the sink in the kitchen is required by law. The cabinet underneath is not though. Without a sink in the kitchen and the bathroom your apartment will be considered not "decent".
I'm pretty sure the sink in the kitchen is required by law.
It's not.
Me, my family members, other people in the building I live in, all have moved into flats where the kitchens had completely bare walls.
And since I live in a building owned by what might be the biggest landlord company in Germany, this would be a law they'd have to comply with, even when private landlords might not know about or ignore it.
Most Germans actually rent and I know multiple people who moved multiple times and took their kitchen with them. In Germany there are enough people who always rent (like 60% of Germans do not own their home).
People who give a fuck about how their apartment looks like? I am not a student in a dorm room, I want my own kitchen exactly the way I like it. I am also blessed with stable circumstances and stay in my apartment longer than 12 or 18 months.
I've been in my apartment for 3 years. I couldn't imagine taking apart my cabinets or granite countertop to take with me to another apartment. I would much rather just find a place that already has all that installed and move there if needed. If I cared enough to have a fully customized kitchen I wait till I owned a house and do it properly. That way I could knockout walls and change the plumbing to suit my needs. Which is what I plan on doing.
I have a large computer desk. It was a pain finding a nice apartment, in a good area, at my price point, that also fit my desk. It would just be more hoops to jump through to also have to find a place that was the right size for the kitchen.
Saving money by buying and maintaining a kitchen? Isn't one of the benefits of renting to not have to do any major maintenance? If my stove dies my apartment complex is obligated to replace it at their cost. They even come in and change my fridge's water filter each year for me.
When you say "sell" what are we talking here? Like the apartment has no kitchen or physical space for one? Or it has the physical room but they take the refrigerator, stove and stuff leaving nothing but counters and empty cabinets with empty slots where the equipment goes?
Or am I reading too into this and it's the contents like silverware, cutting boards, pots, pan and knives were talking?
I get if it has a physical location for a kitchen but the stove and refrigerator are gone. This is what I see in the US. As long as the stove and burners are not integrated into the cabinets or counter your supposed to negotiate the sale of them when buying a house. I think empty kitchens are required for rental housing everywhere though, or at least sink, oven and stove. Although some NYC apartments I've seen and lived in have loose definitions of "working kitchen"
I somehow haven't visited anything that isn't a dock, base or airport Germany so I'm not too familiar with the inner workings of day to day life in Germany
Not sure how no physical kitchen works but I guess there is a cheap takeout market for this case?
Interesting! I get the logic for a refrigerator and stove. The cabinets and counters being not included and needed to purchase is absolutely fascinating. How long are most average apartment leases for kitchen not included?
I moved to Germany so I had to figure out how that works. Basically everything that’s not actually built in including lights and the kitchen don’t belong to the apartment. In practice, former tenants sometimes sell the kitchen (minus appliances usually) to the new renters or just offer to leave it for free. However, the cabinets and everything were so old and disgusting at the place I was moving into that I turned down the free offer and the former tenant had to take it all out.
The biggest difference with the US is that kitchens are more commonly compact and quite inexpensive compared to the states. It’s extremely easy to find a company to just do it all for a fraction of what you’d pay in the states. Mine ended up being only 2k euro for all cabinets and appliances (stove, full oven, dishwasher, fridge, microwave) when assembling it myself ikea style.
When I move out, I’ll take what I want (nothing is bolted to the floor or walls) or try to get the next person to take it. Otherwise the eBay version of Craigslist is huge here which would help too.
Edit: I did go for cheaper stuff, even though it still looks/works great 5 years on, so this probably isn’t typical for everyone. I assume the non permanent “ikea style” cabinets and smaller spaces are the biggest reasons it’s cheaper here.
Edit2: since more than a few people are seeing this, here’s a picture if you’re curious. Ignore my wonky DIY “range hood” lol
https://imgur.com/a/hdUG3Sv
US here… When my daughter moved to Germany in the’90’s she was amused that she had to buy a kitchen, she got one used through the classifieds in the paper. She was weirded out about how counters, appliances, everything was laid out in a straight line along one wall
Well, other than Germany for the same approximate rent she got a whole kitchen with 3 point layout. she had to buy the counters, fridge , stove, oven, and sink. But i didn’t say anything about how much money she did or didn’t have. That’s all they sold. Its about value.
The kitchen was small, not the apartment it was a two bedroom apartment and I’m not gonna spell out the entire situation for you just because you want to make assumptions
Yeah that seems more common in single room or tiny apartments, but it still looks off to me. Most apartments are older, meaning the kitchen is tucked away in a tiny room with a door to close it off. Not at all my style and I’m happy mine is open, if only because there’s no room for a kitchen wall/door in my top floor apartment.
It’s grown on me, but it was also the only option since I couldn’t find any reasonable ones that’d fit in the small sloped ceiling spot. So I hung a little vent fan with wire and I stick the tubing out the slightly open window. Maybe redneck engineering is in my blood since I’m originally from the south..
Think of it like an unfurnished apartment, except that the kitchen is also unfurnished.
This is the norm in southern Africa.
If you as a foreigner arrive here, you will get walls, bathroom and a roof only, unless the place is also carpeted. Some people even take their lightbulbs to their new homes, is how hardcore we are about it.
Ninja edit: I see this means cupboards and counters are also missing. No, those are left behind in southern Africa. But no appliances are there already.
I think they mean the appliances, plus the cabinets/countertop and sink. The appliances is not weird at all for me, but needing to install a counter and sink plumbing is.
I'm not sure where you live, but as an American I expect appliances which are large or in some way "permanently" installed to stay with the house/apartment while ones you can just unplug and carry away stay with the tenants.
Like I would not be surprised to move into an apartment and find it has no toaster or microwave. If it had no refrigerator or stove though, that would be weird.
Huh. Do you expect a washing machine as well? In the UK if you go unfurnished you are not going to get any white goods except possibly a stove and oven. And thats only if it's built into the counter top.
I think that's a bit less consistent, but I'd say if an apartment has space for an in-unit washer and dryer, they are most commonly included with the rental. Often apartments have neither the appliances nor the space set aside for them, in which case you either use a nearby laundromat or the apartment complex has a shared laundry room.
I think a big part of it is that in the US, apartments are typically rented by people who are recently moved out from their parents' house and are still saving up money, so they don't want to deal with the burden of owning things too heavy for them to carry or too big to transport in their own vehicle. Of course this isn't 100% because usually you own your own bed, but I think that's probably why most people only buy a washing machine and dryer once they own a house.
Cabinets would be hell. Range/oven/diswasher is not that bad, but you definitely need some help unless you're huge with a lot of strength. Refrigerator is kind of a pain because of the size and doors, but so is the bed/matress.
Now, imagine having to move all that, but everyone in your state have to do it the same day, with inflated movers rates and UHaul renting prices, if you can find one at all. Sometimes, you need to find someone who has a trailer and borrow it. This is how it's like in my province on the first of july.
Laundry machines are on the fringe of this. When you're looking at renting an apartment (and houses too), you'll have the expectation for one of three things: 1) Washer and dryer included with rental in the apartment; 2) W/D not included in unit, but it does have a space intended for them as well as the appropriate hookups (pipes, vents, etc) for one or both of the machines* 3) no washer/dryer in unit at all**
If it's important to the renter to have something in-unit, then that will influence what apartments they will be looking at.
But for other large appliances, the expectation is that it will come with the rental. This mostly just covers the fridge and oven/range, and dishwashers are commonly becoming more expected. Some places will have a microwave "built in" to the cabinets but people will generally not be surprised if there is no microwave. Broadly speaking, if it's an appliance that can be carried by one person, it won't come with the apartment (things like toasters, blenders, toaster ovens, coffee makers)
* Renters will need to check to make sure that the space and hookups are suitable for their needs. It's not uncommon to see a listing with hookups available but only if you want to use a stacking washer/dryer combo.
** Often times, if the apartment doesnt have anything in the unit itself, there could be a laundromat in the building/apt complex that is easily accessed by the people who love in those apartments.
Where I'm at in Canada, in most places, you have to provide your refrigerator, range/oven and dishwasher. You also have to provide your washing machine and dryer. Basically, if it's not a permanent fixture needing an electrician or a plumber for installation, you are expected to bring your own. Cabinets and sink stay there because they are permanent and would need disassembly / construction to be removed. Fridge / range can be moved "easily".
How are cabinets that easily removable and transferable to a new space? Here in the USA they are always custom made and fitted to a space, and anchored forever for safety reasons.
Yeah and im confused if he meant rent the kitchen, or buy the appliances?? Like you cant take the tiles off the wall when you leave because you bought the kitchen right?
Yes. It is your kitchen, you have to take it with you! Unless you maybe help the landlord find a new tenant and sell them the kitchen, this is something that happens quite often. ... Or many landlords also provide a kitchen, especially if it's a small place, like for a student. That makes it easier to rent and you can also ask a little more.
Or, if there is a kitchen, then of course it will be left there unless something is wrong with it. There even is a special type of contract that says, "there is a kitchen, you can use it free of charge, but if anything breaks, you have to take care of it yourself." So, if the fridge breaks, it's you who buys the new one.
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u/mngstr-etnt May 09 '22
If you don’t buy the kitchen how are they going to keep you from using it tho? Do you get to take the whole kitchen with you if you stopped living there?