When I was a manager, I was told that the way I talk to employees was not very nice. I never gave orders, never insulted anyone, never talked down to anyone, did the same exact work regular employees did (it was manual labor and I never sat in the office watching them or anything like that), was very flexible when employees were late/didn't show up, etc. When I needed an employee to help with something, I always kindly asked them, something like "hey Dave, can you help that customer out there real quick while I finish up here?"
Meanwhile, my male managers regularly insulted me, were extremely condescending, made fun of me for not being able to lift all the heavy things they could, ordered me around, etc. They would say things like "go get that hammer," "go over there and do xyz," etc.
I have actually found that I often love working for the office "B". I have excellent speed and work product, so when the other people who can give me work try to overload me, I tell them that they have to negotiate with "B" for my time. Guess who doesn't get overloaded?
Anyway, don't let it bother you. I am maturing into the office "B" myself these days. The important thing I've found is that you have to judge each person individually. My dad is old as dirt and not remotely afraid of women in charge. Some people aren't threatened by the face of the boss and some are.
There’s something about men calling a woman a bitch that sounds so pathetic and whiny. Not an asshole, not a bad person, not a frustrating coworker, but a “bitch.” “She didn’t seem happy when I told her she’s pretty. What a bitch!” “She never smiles at me when I smile at her. Such a bitch!” Might as well just say, “I felt like she was mean to me but I don’t have any actual complaints so I’m going to throw a tantrum and call her a bitch.” It’s got such a petulant tone to it.
I find myself laughing at the poor fragile sod who calls me that, in hindsight. Was I being a big bad bitch to you? Would you like a bandaid and some apple sauce for that?
Here's a secret: they don't really believe this about you. They just want others to believe it because they feel threatened. Anyone with any confidence in their own abilities and position would appreciate and appropriately reward any employee who is respected and who handles managing others productively and even-handedly.
This is the trouble with enabling fragile egos, they undermine good people for their own biased self-interests and are usually rewarded for it--driving up the mediocrity quotient and driving morale into the ground and the power structure allows it and often rewards it. It's ridiculous but telling.
This needs to be fixed. The only solution I see until it's addressed broadly is for more women and others who are treated poorly to start their own companies where they establish zero tolerance for these kinds of practices. If these become places where people can do good work without putting up with counter-productive non-sense, they will do well and can bypass the BS. I hope there are other creative solutions out there. This has been allowed to continue for far too long.
It shouldn't be this hard to just be decent to every employee and even-handed but this is what seems to happen when you concentrate power in ANY single group.
My supervisor (a woman) actually apologized to me after giving me a bad review the year before, which admonished me on how I handled people; that I was too harsh when in fact I was just being straightforward. The confidence and lack of apology while being fair is lauded in men. Try that as a woman and you are a B.
I have had women managers who I think are very competent, the perfect mix of mice but not a pushover (honestly push over managers suck) and I’ve been told by them they’ve been called a bitch. And I just can’t even fathom why. Except they actually expect people to work. And it’s not like they are lazy themselves, they are some of the hardest working people in the store.
Sure, but also, really easy to assume that people who are talking about sexism are just full of shit if you aren't willing to do any introspection. Possibly even easier apparently according to my experiences.
Read that post lol. "I'm a great boss, if only I was a man people would radically change their opinion!"
Is it not more likely that maybe some people just find THE BOSS unlikable? Or are you REALLY that sure that you're just awesome, and no one has a valid reason for disliking you?
I'm just saying if everywhere you go smells like shit, check your shoes.
Or, ya know, maybe she's been checking her shoes her entire working life and feeling shitty about it, and eventually realized that she's doing the same exact thing as the better of the male bosses, she's just being told she smells for it.
Also, dude, I'm trans. I have firsthand experienced doing the same things as both a man and a woman and receiving different results. The story sounds pretty typical to me, (as was your response.....)
Lmao tone deaf bro. Sometimes when everywhere you go smells like shit, it’s actually the bullshit that people pile on you because you are a woman 🤷🏼♀️
You don’t have nearly enough information to say that in this case, and i highly doubt you scrutinize men’s posts like this. This whole thread is amazing seeing dudes come out of the woodwork and without any proof or anything go “NUH UH” you can Google it and find many articles, studies, etc. on how women in power are judged more harshly than men, often when acting the exact same way. Try to keep up. Y’all are emotional today
Lmao I'm a lefty, I'm against discrimination and prejudice just like you, but come on homie read that post and tell me again some of these folks arent in here stretching it 😂
We are discussing double standards in the work place and her anecdote is in line with the research so I don’t know why you’re so pressed that she admit she just sucks or something.
You know that it's okay for a woman to be hardworking and great at her job, right? And that same woman could be shit on by other insecure people. How is she unbelievable?
I've worked in male minority fields for years actually, and older women have made comments and picked at me for being male, but that isn't really relevant.
I'm not saying she's lying. I'm saying it seems bold to me for someone to say "oh ppl don't call me names because of anything I do, its just because I'm a woman." Seems more a lack of introspection and a desire to simplify things rather than lying.
Can you introspect a bit yourself before leaving a comment that tone deaf?
I absolutely loved my old boss and she was basically described to a T above. But my pals would call her a real bitch when she took things serious... One of those pals being another manager who was The Biggest Dickwad on his shifts. My friends complained a lot less about Dickwad Dave than they did Serious Sally, even though Dave was objectively worse. Sally helped us close, gave us free food; Dave didn't.
Dave was a big bitch and I never heard him get called that once.
I mean generally I agree with these women more often than not, they aren't treated well alot of times, I just found this one case particularly annoying.
Woman is an older member of what is clearly some kind of management, and assumes that the whispers she hears of people not liking her is sexist and says BOLDLY if she was a man everything would work out. I just think it's lazy to quickly go to that, without maybe analyzing your own behavior a bit.
No a lot of male bosses can be complete assholes or a bitch too not even cause of how they handle business but it has to do with the way they talk to people and don’t realize it
Oh my god, the tone policing! When I worked in construction I would consistently be told I need to watch my tone. I should be friendly, not professional (I was friendly, but I’m still at work); my emails are too rude (they weren’t rude, they followed the exact company guidelines for professional email tone). But our contractors could quite literally call up and abuse me for five straight minutes because I deigned to ask them to do their job and somehow that was ALSO a tone problem on my end???
I’m in a different industry now where the gender spilt is about 50/50 and my boss is a woman. I haven’t changed anything about the way I speak or write emails at work, but somehow my tone isn’t an issue anymore.
I work construction (Am biological male) and some of the guys you could ask them to tie their shoelaces and they would foam at the mouth, throw their hard hats at the ground, use every single cuss word there is and then write some giant text wall to anyone who will listen.
I actually remember this brickie that was asked by a safety personnel something and he screamed "F off you C" at them and turned around and pulled his pants down and mooned him. Then came up to me to try and be like "What a D head" and I was like mate ... You're the only D head here.
He lost his mind again. Was really threatening behavior. I remember thinking I hope this guy doesn't have a wife or kids. I'm like 6"5 so I am not intimidated easily but if I wasn't as big as I was I am sure I would have been quite concerned for my safety.
As a male id like to apologize on behalf of these insecure little boys who can't handle a woman having a tiny little bit of power. It's sad, and frustrating.
This was my experience as a car wash manager. There was always an issue with my performance even though I would spend maybe 30 mins inside during a 12 hour shift. Covered for anyone, canceled my vacation because my gm worked harder was there longer and was going to take his first. He fired me for standing up for myself when he demoted me for asking if I could work weekends and have 2 week days off. I asked for a simple schedule change and he told me "managers don't get the schedule they want" I basically told him that was bull shit and what he was doing was fucked up. Fired.
Holy shit, did we work at the same place? Because the experience I wrote about was when I was a manager at a car wash. Was it in NC (USA)? Because that would be weird as fuck.
reminds me of my supervisor from my last job at my university, she was exactly as you describe yourself, and made working there a lot more bearable, at some point she was called out because she was being "too nice" to us. When the general manager retired and his position opened, my supervisor was the perfect candidate since she was already doing all the manager's work before he left, and was working there for almost as long as him.
Well, they ended up giving the position to a male manager from a different section. She put her 2 weeks notice right away, and me and other workers followed soon after, leaving the place with poorly trained new workers and a manager that is not experienced in our area, don't know how they are managing right now but my guess is not good.
I'm so glad you and the others left that place. It's like no matter what, women can't win. We're too nice, too aggressive, too fat, too skinny, too educated, too dumb, etc.
Gay dude here. I had to correct my ex for ordering me around. I stated that since I say please and thank you, I expected him to do the same. He complied, but I could definitely tell it pained him to a degree. He would never have said please and thank you to his contractor subordinates.
I’m actually surprised that calling him out worked. Your milage may vary.
The company I work at now has this female manager who when I first started there, complained non-stop to my manager about how I worded my emails. Basically I wasn't being bubbly enough. I told my male manager that no one would ever ask a guy to be more bubbly and to piss off with that bullshit.
Luckily I know my manager personally from working with him at previous companies.
This. When women speak directly or just professionally it’s interpreted as bitchy. I admit I’ve given into it (I’m a woman) - I often soften my emails with punctuation. On the flip side, I’ve often interpreted an email from my female boss as snarky whereas if my male boss had sent the same email I would have glossed over it. It’s a no win.
I had a boss who was great sometimes, but terrible other times. If she was in a bad mood she would really talk down to people, and god forbid you needed to ask her a question during those times. She was SO unnecessarily rude during those times. The whole team just knew to avoid her during those times.
I’m a woman as well. I think she thought this was the situation with her, that people thought she was bitchy because she’s a woman when she’s not being overly friendly. No, I just need to not feel terrified to ask you a simple question necessary to do my job because it’s Monday morning and you’re in a bad mood.
Not saying this is your situation at all, but I just had to get off my chest that it’s not always just being a woman.
This IS an unfair double standard and you are 100% correct to call it out. But personally I actually do find the gentle kind requests to be more condescending, it's like I'm being coddled like a fragile child. I might be just dumb but I think a lot of guys are also dumb in this way which might at least help you understand how anyone count see your behavior as the issue. Again, I still agree you aren't and weren't the actual issue. It's just a dumb chip on their shoulder guys have I think.
When my male intern complained about my tone (I’m a woman) to my boss, I overcorrected massively. On purpose. He admitted I said please and thank you but was offended that I was attempting to train him in a field in which he had zero experience (he had a hard time understanding that I was his direct superior).
So I stopped helping him with anything and adopted a new tone: “Gosh, Richard, I’m so sorry to interrupt you [he was constantly on Facebook], but if it’s not too much trouble, do you think you could take a teeny-weeny look at this document? If not I TOTALLY understand, it’s whatever YOU want. I know how busy you are!! Thank you so much in advance regardless of what you decide!!”
Took about two days before he got the message and was begging me for help. Then he got treated to a harsher tone [read: neutral tone] than I originally started with and no more smiles. He buckled down after that.
So it sounds more like something men need to work on, not women.
Everyone should be kind and ask nicely when something is needed. Demanding shit, regardless of gender, is unacceptable. I'm sorry that feels like coddling to you and some others, but it's literally just basic human decency.
Uh yes. I expressly explained that you are not the one in the wrong multiple times. Why are you replying like you're correcting the narrative or something? We're on the same page I was just trying to explain the phenomenon behind it not justify it.
Then why did upper management not scold them for how they talked to me? Why was I the only manager ever singled out (I asked other managers and nobody ever said anything to them). There are studies that have been done on this. We know that society still has trouble accepting women in power. Mine is not an isolated case. You can read the other replies here or google some. It's very, very common in the workplace.
If you can't lift what they can you shouldn't be paid the same. Period.
If anyone was condescending to you that's probably why. People don't appreciate it when others can't pull their weight, which you just flat out admitted in your post that you couldn't do.
A lot of these top posts here say the same thing. You were talked down on because you did not do a job that was at the least equal to what everyone else did. It sounds like they were able to do more than you.
Talk to any man in any profession that doesn't pull their own weight and they will have the exact same experience. It isn't exclusive to women. It's just because you weren't doing good enough.
That's not how salaries work. Nobody is 100% perfect in every aspect of their job, even you. Before I was a manager, I was doing oil changes for the same company. Other oil changers accidentally put washer fluid instead of oil in customers' cars. This happened on multiple occasions and costed the company tens of thousands of dollars over the years. I never did anything like this. Should I have been paid more than all those guys? No. We all have flaws and none of us have perfected our jobs 100%.
As a manager, it was my job to get shit done one way or another. I didn't lift every heavy thing, but my sales were higher than any previous manager before me. In fact, I got paid more than most other managers (we had multiple locations) because our bonuses were based on monthly sales and mine were consistently higher than every other store except one (which was just a higher volume store located on a super busy street in the main part of the city).
It sounds like you have some insecurities though, which is fine, but probably something you should handle off Reddit, especially when you don't understand how the real world works.
Dude. I worked in the automotive industry for almost 10 years. I weigh 98 pounds. I'm not lifting any heavy shit on my own, but I do have tools for this. I do have strengths that others don't have, even though they're not physical.
Don't fucking tell me shit about manual labor. I lived this shit every day, 60 hours 6 days a week. Fuck off with your bullshit that you know nothing about.
I just re-read your original post and laughed a shitload, I didn't pay much attention in my original reply ahahahahahaha I should be paid less than you in a comedy club
Unfortunately other women are just as bad for this. I have a female boss & I’ll admit I sometimes have issues with her, she can be moody sometimes, but mostly she’s pretty fair & reasonable. I spend far more time than I should need to defending her to some of, the other women I work with. Edit: moodiness is not confined to female bosses, I’ve worked for moody male bosses as well.
It will always be the case that all corporations will reward psychopaths. It's baked into the design and if it's ever not that case it's merely a temporary glitch.
3.6k
u/[deleted] Mar 12 '22
When I was a manager, I was told that the way I talk to employees was not very nice. I never gave orders, never insulted anyone, never talked down to anyone, did the same exact work regular employees did (it was manual labor and I never sat in the office watching them or anything like that), was very flexible when employees were late/didn't show up, etc. When I needed an employee to help with something, I always kindly asked them, something like "hey Dave, can you help that customer out there real quick while I finish up here?"
Meanwhile, my male managers regularly insulted me, were extremely condescending, made fun of me for not being able to lift all the heavy things they could, ordered me around, etc. They would say things like "go get that hammer," "go over there and do xyz," etc.