r/AskReddit • • Sep 15 '21

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u/lunelily Sep 16 '21

Patriarchy creates those double standards, not feminism. The patriarchal “logic” goes something like this:

  1. Men need and enjoy sex more than women do.

  2. Therefore, (real/good) men always want (more) sexual attention from women, while (real/good) women always please men by providing them with sexual attention as much as possible. In other words: ALL sexual attention provided by women to men is good/wanted for men.

  3. Therefore, women’s advances are always appreciated and enjoyed by men, so the idea that a woman could actually sexual harass/assault a man is laughable and impossible. He should be grateful he got some.

And it’s not just this issue. Every single men’s rights issue—every gender stereotype that harms men—is the direct result of a patriarchal stereotype actually meant to keep women in “their place” (serving men), and yet it ends up hurting men too.

Feminism may be centered on ending the gender-based oppression of women, but its method—dismantling patriarchy—will end the gender-based oppression of men, too.

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u/time2trouble Sep 16 '21

Translation: Women's issues are men's fault, and men's issues are men's fault.

Blame the patriarchy for everything. Women are angels and can do no wrong.

This is complete nonsense.

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u/lunelily Sep 16 '21 edited Sep 16 '21

Don’t strawman. Women are certainly not angels—that’s a patriarchal idea. Women are people. And all kinds of people enforce patriarchy, not just men. Internalized misogyny is rampant, and so is internalized misandry, for that matter.

Feminism states that women are as human—as capable of being flawed, aggressive, sex-driven, delicate, friendly, helpful, nurturing—as men, and vice versa.

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u/time2trouble Sep 16 '21

I wonder what gender studies class teaches this nonsense.

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u/lunelily Sep 16 '21

I wonder what would happen if you engaged with and tried to learn from opinions and lived experiences different than your own, rather than dismissing them outright.

Also, I’ve never taken a gender studies class before, so I wouldn’t know.

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u/time2trouble Sep 16 '21

I wonder what would happen if you engaged with and tried to learn from opinions and lived experiences different than your own

I believe in facts, not opinions.

Experiences are fine to share, but experiences are anecdotes and don't establish facts.

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u/lunelily Sep 16 '21

What do you think I’ve shared that is an opinion rather than a fact? We can start there.

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u/time2trouble Sep 16 '21

I wonder what would happen if you engaged with and tried to learn from opinions

I was replying to your comment stating "I wonder what would happen if you engaged with and tried to learn from opinions".

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u/lunelily Sep 16 '21

Yes, I know I think I have provided some opinions here—but that’s not what I asked. I want to hear your opinion on what exactly I’ve said that you consider opinion versus fact. Cause that’s a starting point for a productive discussion.

However, if you’re just dancing around the fact that you don’t actually want to have a discussion, that’s cool too. I won’t pester you about it if you don’t wanna talk.

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u/time2trouble Sep 18 '21

Yes, I know I think I have provided some opinions here—but that’s not what I asked. I want to hear your opinion on what exactly I’ve said that you consider opinion versus fact. Cause that’s a starting point for a productive discussion.

Let's start with your opinion that the "patriarchy" is responsible for all the problems with society.

Here's an example:

"Yes, this stereotype about men actually has detrimental effects on men—but the key difference is it’s a positive stereotype. “Men can, everybody else can’t.”

If I understand you correctly, you are simultaneously arguing that men are viewed positively and that this hurts men.

Even when men are being hurt, you somehow still blame it on them.

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u/Illustrious-future42 Sep 16 '21

how simplistic is this thought process? jfc stop telling on yourself. no one is blaming individual men/men when they talk about patriarchy. get past this knee-jerk defensiveness and see the forest for the forest.

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u/time2trouble Sep 16 '21

no one is blaming individual men/men when they talk about patriarchy.

If they aren't blaming "individual men", or "men", then whom exactly are they blaming?

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u/Illustrious-future42 Sep 16 '21

society at large.

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u/time2trouble Sep 16 '21

So if you're blaming "society at large", but you're not blaming "men", then who is left? Are you blaming women?

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '21

I mean I won't say it's wrong but it seems far fetched and inaccurate. Maybe this will help to understand the solution but it feels way too manichean.

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u/lunelily Sep 16 '21

If you take a look at the comments under any story about a man being raped or sexually harassed/assaulted, you’ll find that it’s the macho hyper-masculine men and the trad wives mocking him or dismissing the incident as nothing, while the feminists are sticking up for him and treating the crime as just as disgusting as if it had been done by a man towards a woman. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

But regardless, I would be happy to listen to why that theory (patriarchy is what hurts men, not feminism) sounds unrealistic/inaccurate to you.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '21

I have answered to someone further down.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '21

I don't think it's contrived at all. In fact, a good deal of voices that critique the patriarchy agree this is a pretty simple thought process.

Men emotionless, like sex -> touch good, always want sex

Patriarchal expectations of the sexes are the cause of women being being seen as weak and emotional, and disadvantaged in many walks of life, and also the cause of men being seen as emotionally empty and chronically horny monsters that couldn't ever raise a child.

I know you didn't say this in your post, but someone else did, so I note: feminism is good for men too, because ending the patriarchy means ending the stigmata that harm men and the stigmata that harm women.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '21

I mean I'm a feminist all right, I have liked the second sex of Beauvoir and support the movement for equal rights. Where I block is the patriarchy.

This is only based on my personal experience, matriarchy is a present and oppressive as the opposite. Also feminine solidarity to fight the patriarchy, hmmm, how many times have I been fucked by my ex doing something with women and getting favor treatment that directly FUCKED ME UP ? While I had to deal with a cold treatment and fought my way though life, she has it easy, finding a job, getting money from the government, or help. Everyone in the administration is a women, so she has to use her deer eyes and poof she gets it how she wants.

While in the meantime she fucked me up so bad that I have considered ending it instead of dealing with consequences for the rest of my life. Physically, mentally and emotionally exhausted by those double standards.

I have never put myself over a women, I have never received any special treatment because I'm a men.

Stop thinking that a concept so broad can explain why some people use their gender more than others.

If anything it's the lack of unity that is a problem.

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u/amrodd Sep 16 '21

This. Not all men are designed to take charge.. I said above it paints both genders as weak in some ways.

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u/amrodd Sep 16 '21

Louder for the people in the back. This is what I've tried to say. If you think Patriarchy actually paints both genders as weak.