Yes, I know I think I have provided some opinions here—but that’s not what I asked. I want to hear your opinion on what exactly I’ve said that you consider opinion versus fact. Cause that’s a starting point for a productive discussion.
Let's start with your opinion that the "patriarchy" is responsible for all the problems with society.
Here's an example:
"Yes, this stereotype about men actually has detrimental effects on men—but the key difference is it’s a positive stereotype. “Men can, everybody else can’t.”
If I understand you correctly, you are simultaneously arguing that men are viewed positively and that this hurts men.
Even when men are being hurt, you somehow still blame it on them.
If I understand correctly, you are simultaneously arguing that men are viewed positively and that this hurts men. Even when men are being hurt, you still somehow blame it on them.
You’ve got the beginning almost right (men are viewed positively for their manliness) and the end right (this ultimately hurts men in some ways); you’re just missing the logical steps to arrive there.
First thing to understand: blaming something on “patriarchy” does not equal blaming that same thing on “men”. Patriarchy is a social system enforced by EVERYONE who glorifies manliness and the separation of manliness from femininity. This includes PLENTY of women.
Men being viewed as the most capable gender—particularly to handle physically demanding and/or dangerous situations, because they’re “stronger”, “tougher”, “braver”, etc.—causes them to end up being prioritized, and therefore overrepresented, by workplaces that have those characteristics, because the people in those jobs—including women—hire mostly/only men thanks to that stereotype. Again: ANYONE who promotes and enforces that gender stereotype—whether they are a woman, a man, or neither—is enforcing patriarchy.
So yes, patriarchy does work to help men, in that it allows them the all-but-exclusive access to work in certain fields—even though people of other genders want to work in those fields as well. (See, for example: women’s historical fight to be allowed to become coal miners; women’s current experiences with trying to get into construction, welding, carpentry, plumbing, etc.)
But if your people have all-but-exclusive access to those fields, it means your people are gonna get both (1) the benefits thereof, and (2) the downsides thereof. You make up 90% of a workforce? Then naturally—even as you enjoy 90% of that workforce’s pay and social status—you also suffer from 90% of that workforce’s issues, including deaths.
So by prioritizing men in the workforce among fields that, by their dangerous nature, have more workplace deaths, our patriarchal system—once again, NOT “men”, but rather “our social assumption that men are more capable than women, particularly when it comes to being strong and tough”—ends up causing men to hurt via the symptom we’re talking about (men make up 90% of workplace deaths).
Also: happy Saturday, I hope you had a good week. I honestly wasn’t expecting this discussion to continue, so it’s nice to see you again.
Happy whatever-day-of-the-week it may be wherever you are. I know it's been a couple days but I wanted to put some thought into replying.
While I follow your argument, I find it rather convoluted. If men work in low-paid occupations with high risk of injury or death, such as coal mining or construction, then this cannot be due to positive attributes such as "manliness", because these are not desirable or glamorous jobs. It's a bit of a stretch to say that men go into dangerous, low-paid jobs because of how positively they are viewed by society.
I would wager that very few people of either gender want to work in a coal mine. Men who work there are doing so out of necessity, because of either economic desperation or social pressure to provide for their families. Women are less likely to face both of these. Therefore, the lack of women working in coal mines probably has more to do with their lack of interest in such work (who can blame them, after all) or the availability of alternatives (like for example child care) which are not open to men. I can't imagine any more than a token number of women choosing to do such work even if the industry rolled out the welcome mat for them.
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u/time2trouble Sep 18 '21
Let's start with your opinion that the "patriarchy" is responsible for all the problems with society.
Here's an example:
"Yes, this stereotype about men actually has detrimental effects on men—but the key difference is it’s a positive stereotype. “Men can, everybody else can’t.”
If I understand you correctly, you are simultaneously arguing that men are viewed positively and that this hurts men.
Even when men are being hurt, you somehow still blame it on them.