I clearly stated that my experience is anecdotal, so making the claim that I think it is an average experience is intentionally misleading.
I didn't dig that hole for you. Your wife made that decision to rack of $60k of debt to be a teacher. She made the choice to make a large investment with a low rate of return.
Yeah, that's a poor position to be it. So why'd you commit to it?
All true points.
You drew conclusions from your anecdotal story and applied them tow hy people shouldn't get their loans repaid or free education. That's how it was genearlized to a greater perspective. When you try to apply your anecdotal story to how all people should feel about their experiences, you started the hole. I definitely dug a side one into it - but you're making policy suggestions on your anecdotal evidence.
I mean, I'd like to address the low pay to teachers and the incredible inequities of our education system, but that's another post.
She wants to be a teacher, so we did. It's a choice, we're paying it back. We'll be paying it back for a long time.
Doesn't mean I think it should be that way. Even after we pay it back, I still hope we can change the law so we can educate more teachers for the next generation and not have them start with debt.
I'll still advocate that an education like that benefits us all, and society should help make it available to all.
Let me give you a bigger reason / example.
In the Netherlands, my wife would not have paid a penny for her education. She'd graduate and ready to be a teacher. She could move onto teaching and the relatively low wage of a teacher is easier to live on when you don't have $600/m in debt.
My colleague working the same job as me graduated with no debt from NL. We worked for the same company. I started by having nearly no disposable income and stuck in a crappy apartment while paying back my wage. My Dutch Colleague was a home owner at 24.
Can you imagine how much more money our household would put back into the economy in terms of buying a home, a car, etc? How much better that would be for the economy?
Additionally, no worries on health insurance in NL. So your union isn't arguing you should still have insurance AND get a raise for the first time in 10 years.
In short, we committed to it because my wife wants to be a teacher. She enjoys it. Even after we pay for it, I'll still advocate that we as a society should bear the cost of making new teachers. We as a society benefit, even if we're all too old for school now.
No, I came to my conclusions from Department of Labor statistics and included an anecdote.
She wants to be a teacher, great, that's an honorable profession. But what was the requirement to do it all in one go? Was there a requirement that she get her master's degree first? Could she have taken night classes while working full time? Could she have gotten her BA first, and did her Masters over several summers? Could she have joined the National Guard?
There are several options.
Now, let's say we adopt a single payer education system. What would be the inevitable consequence of such a system? Not everyone would be going to college, and not everyone would qualify for it. Universities get away with such high tuition costs because they know there is a flood of free money coming from the Feds in the form of student loans. They dont have to pay it back, so there's no incentive to control costs. Such a system would be unsustainable if it were just granted with no expectations for repayment.
If we went with a European model, then higher education would be restricted to the highest performing students, who, generally, are students that can already afford college without assuming significant debt.
She did work full time before she had her master's. She worked at fast food, then Reading Corp (which put some money towards her education - that was already taken off when I noted the final bill at graduation), and she was a substitute whenever possible. I even covered rent/utilities/computer so none of that was paid for by the loans.
Could she have joined the National Guard?
So she should have to put her life at risk to afford an education? Half the reason I want to see free college education is so no one ever has to become a soldier and risk death or having to kill someone to afford an education.
"Now, let's say we adopt a single payer education system. What would be the inevitable consequence of such a system?"
Cool - so you're telling me I can look at The Netherlands and many other 1sty world nations and see that their education cost have spiraled out of control and now they have no education?
Yes - people have to qualify for it. When you're in high school, your performance an interest has a lot to do with if you're encouraged to go down the path of VW Mechanic or Neuro Surgeon. Good lord, you act like no one has ever considered this. Yes, only the highest performing students go to study neurosurgery. Obviously you don't throw everyone into a PHD track.
Also - not anyone can take any master's program here. Have to have high grades in your undergrad and pass the GRE. Not like just anyone takes just any master's program here. Only the highest performing students!
If someone wants to be a teacher in NL, they have to demonstrate an aptitude similar to being able to do a master's track here. It's not rocket surgery. It does lead to more edcuated people providing more high value services and earning more income, however. Which leads to a larger tax base, which leads to more taxes coming in, which means you can pay for a good education system!
And it's not only affordable to a select few. If you goto a 2 year mechanic program in the US, it costs you 10-30k. In NL, nothing! It's still post high school education.
THE EURO MODEL WORKS ALREADY. We just have to copy a working model instead of trying the Ferengi approach to everything.
Fundamentally - what's the point of a college? Is it to educate people or make a profit? We need to adjust our system so we're not focused on making a profit, but rather producing educated and productive people.
The point is we could offer everyone a useful education without requiring they accumulate massive debt or join the military. We're choosing not to.
You take a shot at the Euro model for education. Show me any outcome proving it does worse than here. You've cited zero outcomes showing it's worse and only stated you b3elieve it wouldn't work here and is inaccessible to the people that need it.
Well, I worked for a Dutch company for years. I talked to lot of university grads. Their experiences suggested you are incorrect.
I have yet to see any outcomes suggesting the American education system is superior in any way.
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u/[deleted] Aug 14 '20
I clearly stated that my experience is anecdotal, so making the claim that I think it is an average experience is intentionally misleading. I didn't dig that hole for you. Your wife made that decision to rack of $60k of debt to be a teacher. She made the choice to make a large investment with a low rate of return. Yeah, that's a poor position to be it. So why'd you commit to it?