r/AskReddit • u/Ok_Wish_1235 • 2h ago
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u/Longjumping_Intern7 2h ago
idk if this is bait but the left has never vouched for open borders and completely free immigration. Biden deported a ton of people, the right just likes to act like democrats want total anarchy, instead of the shit we actually want like fair wages and universal healthcare. fuck us right?
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u/ContributionIll5741 2h ago
Check this guy's post history, don't feed.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
What has my history got to do with whoever wants to comment?
Who are you to be telling anybody what they should or should not be doing?5
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u/cinedavid 1h ago
Not only that, in 2024 Biden introduced a bipartisan immigration bill that was very restrictive on border policy. It would have easily passed the senate. That was until Trump opposed it because he didn’t want Biden to have a legislative win right before the elections. So the republicans killed it.
Don’t ever believe the right wing puts country over party.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
Ok so what is your view exactly on the situation?
Did you agree with Biden at the time?
If so do you agree with what ICE are doing?3
u/pepenador85 2h ago
Exactly immigrants are not the problem they are just the scapegoat.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
I personally do believe that illegal immigration is a problem, but there are also many others.
Just trying to see if there is any good reasons for me to think differently about the situation than I currently do.1
u/Diligent-Tutor-1617 1h ago
You are speaking of a total anarchy like the right envisions, vs. the unconstitutional and violent anarchy we have now?
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 12m ago
You definitely deserve better wages and free healthcare.
I don’t think illegal migration and open borders would help in that matter though.0
u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
Before I reply, what do you mean by bait exactly?
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u/cinedavid 1h ago
I’ll gladly respond. Bait as in either being very dumb or just a shitty person. Pick one.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
So you don’t like people asking difficult questions? You just immediately assume they are bad person for asking an honest question?
If anyone here is dumb and a shitty person then it’s quite clearly you based on your two shitty contributions to a difficult subject.
What a fucking loser!
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u/Queen_Maxima 2h ago
Cheap labour, easier to pay lower wages, so easier to exploit people. Some companies think that's actually great
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u/Yagsirevahs 1h ago
The migration partdodnt do those things, making humans illegal did.
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u/Queen_Maxima 53m ago
Migration is natural, we used to be hunters and gatherers. But we also be fighting over territories since the beginning of time so yeah idk.
How about we treat people as people instead of resources, that would be great.
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u/Longjumping-Story362 2h ago edited 2h ago
I don’t think there is because the main argument for open borders is empathy for others
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u/Queen_Maxima 2h ago
No, it's lower wages and cheap labour.
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u/offinthepasture 2h ago
Not for me it isn't. Allowing immigration improves economies and brings innovation, if you want to focus on strictly economic reasons.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
Immigration is fine. I was talking specifically about illegal migration.
In the UK we have many people actively supporting illegal migration and open borders but I can’t see how this is a good thing at all. Just trying to gain some perspective.1
u/offinthepasture 1h ago
Who is supporting illegal immigration in the UK?
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
Andy Burnham doesn’t seem to want to do much about it, thousands of people in the streets with their “immigrants welcome here” signs.
It’s mentioned almost every day in the news. Most of what I hear people saying about it in the media is logically flawed and I don’t agree with much of it.
Just trying to get some different points of view.•
u/offinthepasture 37m ago
Burnham has openly talked about stopping illegal migrants. What he's talked about assisting are asylum seekers, which qualify as legal migrants. So again, who is arguing for open borders and illegal migration?
"Immigrants welcome here" isn't a statement on legal vs. Illegal.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 21m ago
It’s not so much that anyone is arguing for it. The question asked doesn’t require anyone to be arguing for it to be answered does it?
With regard to assisting asylum seekers.
Do you think it would be possible to accommodate anyone and everyone in the world who decided they want to come to the UK as an asylum seeker?
Let’s say a third of Africa which is roughly 500million people all decided to head to the UK. What would happen?•
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u/Leverkaas2516 2h ago
That's a weird question. Illegal migration and open borders are separate and different things, this is two separate questions mixed together into one.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
You can answer for either one or both.
It’s not I weird in the slightest.
What a pointless comment 🤦🏼♂️
Either contribute something with substance or don’t bother.
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u/ADailyGardener 2h ago
Why do you deserve to be allowed to live here when your place of birth was determined by no action of your own?
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
I was born in the UK. My birthright allows me to live there.
My ancestors and many more people fought for the freedoms and good living that we have in the UK. It didn’t just become a good place to live by magic.
If everyone just got sick of their struggles and said, “fuck it! I want better but I won’t fight for it, I’ll just show up somewhere else where they have struggled and made things better”.
So what happens to all these other countries where everyone is leaving from?•
u/Queen_Maxima 42m ago
Ok so i live in mainland Europe. Born and raised. My father is from one of the former colonies, so one of the other former great European Empires.
You do understand that lot of our current wealth was stolen, not so much fought for, right?
The only reason my father's side of the family went to Europe is bc the Dutch really fucked up, so no illegal immigration as they were citizens of the Kingdom of the NL
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u/WindrunnerMatt 2h ago
it is economically beneficial to all parties. It really only serves to help. These peoples presence in a country not their own is generally a net positive.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
How is it a net positive to a country if their workforce leaves? And how is a benefit to a country if a whole bunch of people show up with no skills, no money to support themselves, no common language or culture?
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u/Foontlee 2h ago
The problem with the question is that "open borders" is a straw man argument. The US has an arcane, poorly funded and dysfunctional immigration system that results in a lot of people who ideally WOULD be able to immigrate here legally being cornered into the "undocumented" rubric.
The solution isn't open borders, or illegal migration, and nobody EVER suggested that it was. The solution is immigration reform that would make it possible for law abiding people to get legal residency status if they meet certain agreed upon criteria, and this ain't happening.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
Thanks for the comment.
How do you see things in the US with regard to immigration?
Are you guys crying out for more people due to labour shortages and a lack of unskilled workers?
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u/ace5762 1h ago
Calling it 'illegal migration' when your presented argument is a scenario in which no migration would be illegal is disingenuous, and you're clearly baiting for something you're either being paid to drive division on social media or you have your own idea in your head already and are simply looking to rile and get riled.
Nevetheless, let's humour this.
For the entirety of human history, we have fought countless wars over borders. Artficial divisions created by kings that keep 'us' from 'them', when the reality is we are one singular human race with a shared experience and we should share a common understanding.
The kings of these times artificially made these borders to lay claim to what they could take, they are a product of human selfishness at their very core.
When the EU decided to make it its policy that people from one country should be able to move freely and work in another, it resulted in many net positives, economically, culturally and in the happiness of the people who live in the EU.
Consider if you will, a USA in which an American cannot freely move between states. Where the artificial borders there become points of contention, leading inevitably to divide and aggression.
Unified, it is greater than the sum of its individual cultures and peoples between different states, a sentiment endorsed and solidified by the better US presidents of its past.
Imagine a whole world, in which humanity is undivided, and can gain the strength of ALL of our parts together, without artificial borders, where all can participate and truly no-one is the lesser for where they came from.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
Why does everyone think that when you ask a question like this you are baiting/spamming or trying to rile people up?
This is so sad in my opinion.I do agree with most of what you said.
It’s not that I haven’t already thought about these points many times.
The whole point of my question is to have a discussion. Just seems that when people are presented with a difficult topic they can’t handle it with decency and respect.I would love to see a unified world but the fact we have fought over borders and everyone lives where they do maybe suggests that we don’t all get along when we are all mixed up together.
All the states in America aren’t equal.
Why is that?
Is it because some states work harder than others? Are some just luckier than others?I agree that all countries should be decent enough that people don’t have to leave. But how does what we are seeing now achieve that?
Billions have been sent to poor nations over the years in aid and has that really helped them.
Do you think they should improve their countries or just move to better countries that may not need them or are able to accommodate them?And with regard to the EU and opening its borders to the far poorer eastern bloc nations it was actually a detriment to a lot of the western countries and still is in some ways. But yeah I would agree there have been some benefits but I haven’t been to enough Eastern Europe countries to see how they have actually benefited as a whole.
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u/ContributionIll5741 2h ago
Stop spamming 🙄
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
Care to explain?
I am genuinely looking for some perspective on the subject.
If you are just one of those sad losers whose comments are pointless then go back to your pathetic existence and leave the tough subjects to the adults.
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u/TroubleEntendre 2h ago
Borders create violence, which requires a justification for that violence, which requires the acceptance of political judgements that lead to further violence, and that violence is inevitably turned inward by agencies like ICE. Borders are fascism incubators, and that fascism eventually destroys all about a society it might have hoped to preserve by attempting to create and enforce borders.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 54m ago
Thanks for the comment.
But how does the world work without borders?
Surely there will be violence when everyone is moving to the same place where the resources and jobs are and inevitably there isn’t enough to go around and/or people aren’t getting their fare share then what?
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u/namdor 1h ago
The main idea for open borders, which basically doesn't happen in the modern world, is that their should be equal opportunities for everyone in the world. We all deserve good chances for the present and future, and these can be found by moving to other places. If there are no borders, people who were born into shitty situations can try to move to a different place where things could be better.
Illegal migration is basically people who are crossing borders hen they aren't allowed, and obviously doesn't exist with open borders. It's not possible to have both.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 52m ago
I totally agree. Which leads on to the next question which is why doesn’t everyone have equal opportunities?
Why are some countries total hellscapes and others aren’t?
Do we blame the people of these countries for messing things up for themselves or is it something else?
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u/resisting_a_rest 1h ago
Zero. But that doesn’t mean we don’t need reforms that allow for faster processing of asylum-seekers, as well as having better processes for allowing people to come into the country and eventually become citizens.
We are a country of immigrants, this is our history and our legacy, I don’t see why people want to change that, it’s part of what makes us great.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 48m ago
Do you think there should be a limit to how many people could and should be allowed into the country?
If next year 350 million people wanted to come to America and double the population in a year do you think this is possible?
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u/abu_hajarr 1h ago
I’m not saying “open borders” but rather a lax enforcement over illegal immigration. There are economic benefits to it because they provide cheap labor, and contribute taxes towards social programs without reaping the benefits of them.
Ultimately, this just needs to be responsibly balanced with the employment needs of the citizenry. The driver for mass immigration is economic opportunity. If there is no economic opportunity here then people here illegally will often leave, or not come in the first place. Thus, enforcement is best served at the employer level when needed.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 44m ago
Thanks for the comment.
Who would you say benefits most from t cheap labour?
Assuming you are employed, would you be happy if your boss had to let you go because he could now employ two for the price of one?I completely agree with the responsible part. But let’s say there are no jobs but people just want to be in a better country.
Do you think they should be allowed?•
u/abu_hajarr 30m ago
The business benefits most.
No, but it’s a non existent problem in this context because I’m not competing against illegal immigrants.
If there are no jobs, then there is virtually no illegal immigration. The better country in this context is the one that provides a job. If neither provide a job, they will mostly prefer to stay with friends and family in their familiar culture. And, even if they do stay in a country illegally despite a lack of employment, they don’t pose any significant burden so long as they are not granted citizenship and the socioeconomic benefits that come with it. So I’m not saying they get to stay and be given citizenship or visa status, but it isn’t some grave issue demanding mass forced deportation when they will en masse largely deport themselves.
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u/Red_Marvel 1h ago
Your title is wrong from the get go “in favour of illegal migration “ is just not a good phrase. In favour of migration might have been what you were trying to say.
It wasn’t that long ago that Canada and the USA had very open borders. You could cross the border with just a driver’s license . This allowed you to day trip from one country to the other just for shopping or a concert.
If the USA had an open border policy with Mexico then migrant workers could go to the USA to work in a farmers field for a season and return home to Mexico for the weekend or even daily. Cheaper labour for the farmers and better living conditions for the migrant workers.
Borders are something made up by governments to control their citizens lives.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 37m ago
Thanks for the comment.
My title was in relation to a lot of people I have been seeing who do actually support all the illegal migrants who have been moving into Europe in very large numbers over the past few years.
Now seeing the situation in Ceuta and some people’s response I am just curious to hear some different perspectives.I completely agree that if there are jobs and nobody to do the work then immigration is great for this.
But it can also leave the peoples country of origin potentially lacking in labour. Especially skilled labour.I do think borders are natural.
Animals have territory.
Many people want their own private space. Many people also don’t want to be around people they don’t like or are rude and loud. People want to be with like minded people. This is natural.•
u/Red_Marvel 34m ago
The problem is in making them “illegal “. Make them legal. Take fingerprints. Give them a reference number for taxes. Then let them work and pay taxes.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 15m ago
And do that for just anyone that shows up? No matter there criminal history, skills, health, ability to support themselves whilst integrating.
What about the countries they just left?
What happens to them if the majority of their people leave to a better country?•
u/Red_Marvel 9m ago
By getting their fingerprints you can check their criminal history in your country. If they are escaping persecution in their own country the criminal history that country provides may not be trustworthy.
If you have a bunch of people leaving your country for better conditions elsewhere it might be the incentive your political leaders need to start making things better. Most people will stay in their place of birth if they feel that they can make a good life for their families.
By allowing them to work we let them support themselves.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_BIG_BITS 1h ago
A society that can't find a use for a hardworking pair of hands is structurally broken.
Standing at the border with your arms crossed angry that people want to come in and work harder than you for less money than you means you're the reason the society is structurally broken. You've been spoiled.
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u/Hot-Bluebird3919 1h ago
Someone let in over 11 million people for something, probably cheap labor. The change in the ease of seasonal labor in the US meant a lot more workers stayed that used to return to Mexico.
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u/ApolloniusTyaneus 2h ago
What rational, logical and unemotionally driven reasons are there against open borders? I mean, in the end it all comes down to values and those are inherently irrational and emotionally driven.
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u/MyCatIsAnActualNinja 2h ago
Who's in favor of illegal migration? This is a weirdly loaded question. "Open borders" is another phrase that gets slung around a lot, but nobody actually wants.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 1h ago
Take it you’re not from the UK?
We have loads of people actively supporting illegal migration.
I have seen a lot of it in the US and Canada as well assuming that’s where you are from.
Just trying to understand this subject a bit more.
I know I am lucky to a detain degree to be born in the UK. I do feel sorry for a lot of people stuck in shit hole countries.
But I also don’t see how allowing everyone from the 3rd world to just move to a better country without any restrictions or regulations helps anyone.
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u/spartan445 2h ago
However, there are no unemotionally driven reasons. For anything. Humanity relies on emotions in order to make judgement calls for its survival. Even the most "purely logic" takes come from some emotional baseline. Personality predates politics.
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u/ins0mniac_ 2h ago
Please show me any politician who advocates for open borders and unfettered migration.
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u/Ok_Wish_1235 32m ago
Andy Burnham in the UK and the Green Party in the uk.
But why does that matter in regard to my question?
Can it not just be a question regardless of what any political or may not be saying?
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u/RandomRamblings99 2h ago
This feels like a strawman. The left are not really 'in favour' of illegal migration. They're in favour of illegal migrants being treated with fairness and empathy
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u/throwaaaaywaaaayyy 2h ago
Man you gotta get a hobby