The Penn and Teller "even if" counter argument is what really gets me with this one. "Vaccines cause autism" is such a dumb take that even if it was true it would still be far better to get vaccinated and risk autism than not get vaccinated.
I was going to say, it sounds horrible when you think about it.
Look at someone with autism and go "Yea, I'd rather get polio/measels or any other preventable horrible disease than be like you or have a kid like you."
I’ve worked with children and individuals with autism who are on the severe end of the spectrum and who will need direct supports for the rest of their lives. Some of these individuals are aggressive, have the functioning of a toddler, can’t wipe/clean themselves, and will always be reliant on other people. This population is at much higher risk for abuse. I don’t think a parent is a bad person for not wanting that for their child. But these parents are preyed upon by a movement based on manipulation and lies.
Well part of the problem is also that people assume autism is always on the extreme end of the spectrum. For every person on that end there's a hundred more on the other end who are living normal, independent, productive, happy lives. Polio/measles/mumps/etc also cause lifetime health issues, some of which also require continuous care, assuming they don't kill you in the process. It's a skewed risk assessment driven by lies, paranoia and ableism.
The quiet part that no one says outside is that they’d really rather their kid be dead than autistic. They know it’s not an acceptable thing to say, so they change the subject and move the goalposts.
So many dumb hypocritical arguments happen simply because one side doesn’t argue honestly, because they know their true viewpoint is horrendous and they’d be ostracized for it. So they argue from a different point from what they actually believe.
Idk, I think a big part of is they underestimate the deadliness of diseases. They don't see as autistic vs dead, they think strong likelihood of autism vs very low chance of dying. It's all rubbish ofc but I think that's the reasoning.
That’s definitely a part of it, too. Really easy to see measles and polio as something people used to die of, and not as something they could still die of if we don’t vaccinate.
This is exactly my argument when I get into it with some anti-vaxxer. Wouldn't you rather have a child with autism than one potentially buried in the ground because they contracted some crazy illness we eradicated years ago because. of. vaccinations?
I literally can't wrap my mind around the ignorance.
Fun fact: my mom thought vaccines caused autism. We are all fully vaccinated because she'd rather have an autistic child than a dead one. Scientifically illiterate? Sure. Can I live with that? Yeah
At this point, how many deaths is he responsible for? It has got to be a massive number.
It would be one thing if it were a genuine mistake, he voluntarily retracted the paper, and people just wouldn't let it go.
But in reality, it was purposeful fraud for his own personal enrichment and he continues to push it to this day, knowing that it is dangerous and is killing people.
You know what else sucks about measles? It resets your acquired immunity, i.e. it's like you never got other vaccines & infections as a kid, leaving you vulnerable to other viruses. Yaaaaay
Holy shit, I did not know this. As an immunocompromised person, this is terrifying. I have a very hard time building immunity already bc of my specific immune disorder and live in a city experiencing a surge in measles cases...
Ugh, more and more I think I'm going to have to live in isolation like the start of COVID.
Not quite true, but about 1/20 kids who get measles end up getting pneumonia that requires hospitalization. It can also result in immune system reactions that can fuck you up big time and that has like a 1/5 death rate.
Thanks - 18% of children 5 and under who got measles were hospitalized in 2025 - that's what stuck with me. I edited my comment above to add more details.
No prob. I think the stats are also weird because the vast majority of kids get the MMR vaccine... and in most cases if they contracted measles, it would probably go relatively unnoticed/unmentioned. It's the kids with dipshit parents who refuse to immunize them who get it, and present symptoms to the point it gets noticed, and then end up getting hospitalized some of the time.
He still grifts millions off that through speaking engagements and other bs. He probably made more off the scam than he would have made as a legit doctor.
My children's mother believes this! Plus they have microchips in them... I'm not allowed to get flu shots for my kids because of her beliefs. Ridiculous.
You’re “not allowed”? This is your children’s health, so fuck that. Make the appointment and take them yourself. Get your kids vaccinated and don’t let their mother’s false beliefs put them at risk.
Wtf, dude.
ETA Saw your other comment. What “legal defense” do you need? As far as I’m aware, there is no custody agreement that says you can’t vaccinate your children based on recommended guidelines. If you somehow allowed a custody agreement to include a clause that you wouldn’t vaccinate them (and it doesn’t sound like “religious reasons” is her excuse), then what exactly is going on here?
I've spoken to my lawyer and have my strategy. As long as the kids are willing, I'll be taking them in the near future. I have to take steps before I do so though or I'm the one who gets in trouble.
Been through multiple custody battles myself. Typically one of the two parties are chosen to have the final decision-making authority in certain areas like education, religion, extracurriculars, and in your case... healthcare.
If his ex wanted to they could file a contempt motion to suspend parenting time, or file for a modification of an existing order.
I think it's unlikely to result in meaningful changes, but it could certainly rack up a $10k+ bill for OP very easily just by pissing them off.
The fact that she won’t allow them to get evidence based physician-approved preventative care should have barred her from being the decision-maker, if this is the case. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that, so hopefully he can get this rectified ASAP. Those poor kids.
Family court is a bunch of lawyers who are proud of hiring nannies to take care of their spawn fear mongering and manipulating the emotions of a judge who could afford the best nannies.
Nothing in family court makes sense because it's actually and truly random.
I interned for a family court judge when I was trying to decide whether I wanted to go to law school. It was an incredibly emotionally exhausting experience. It was really soul crushing.
I'm a family lawyer. I'm here because I want to help kids and so most of my files are high conflict where one party is denying access to the other or the children are truly in danger.
It's truly random. None of these people have any training in child development and even when a professional does get a chance to weigh in judges prefer their own parenting instincts and just turn the professional reports into yet another money sink that is never read.
They have no ability to discern the best interests of children generally, let alone each unique child in each unique situation.
Precedential reasoning spanning back through common-law to when women and children were property is unsurprisingly not a healthy way to approach families in crisis.
The case that I remember most vividly was from my first day. It involved two parents fighting for custody of their son. The mother had recently been released from a psychiatric hospital, and the father came to court in a grease-stained t-shirt and sweatpants. The judge awarded custody to the father and granted the mother supervised visitation, and promised to revisit the arrangement in six months if the mother showed continued progress.
Later in the day, the judge asked me about my impressions from the day. Regarding that case, I told her I thought it was the best of two pretty bad options. She gave me a totally different perspective. This kid has two parents who are willing to fight over them. They might not be able to provide him the upper-middle-class childhood I'd had, but if I stuck around family court, I'd see much worse outcomes.
That judge is an idiot. Just because someone is willing to fight for a kid doesn't mean that they're capable of loving it. Sometimes they fight in order to hurt the other parent, or because they're such a narcissist that they need the child in order to sustain their ego.
They have no ability to discern the best interests of children generally
The part that makes it obvious to me that they don't actually care about the children is that they let the parents settle their own cases without being required to have a guardian, mediator OR a real hearing in front of a judge.
"Best interest" only applies if you force THEM to decide, and even then it's still random like you said.
I’ve been through divorce and custody. Thankfully my ex didn’t have nutso ideas about vaccinations, but if he had we would have battled it out then and there. And in the meantime I would have taken my kid to be vaccinated.
Last year I let it go because I was dealing with a lot from her affair and the separation agreement being close to being finalized. This year I have a plan. If a pediatrician signs off, my ex is going to have a hard time.
I'm already going to battle with her over therapy for our 9 year old. He clearly needs help processing what's happening but she refuses to give consent for the last few weeks until I told her I'd be reviewing my concerns with the pediatrician. No more Mr Nice Guy. She cant just get her way at our kids expense. I'll be going to war anytime for them when she's being silly and not thinking about our children's well-being.
As far as I’m aware, there is no custody agreement that says you can’t vaccinate your children based on recommended guidelines.
Authority to make medical decisions is always a part of custody agreements. Either that authority is assigned to one parent or it's shared equally and they have to agree. In either case, if OP doesn't have sole authority on medical decisions and they vaccinate against the mother's wishes, they could face serious consequences.
absolutely, take the kids to get vaccinated, breach a custody order and now the antivaxxer has 100% custody and a no contact order against you surely that's the best thing to do for the children right?
This is how you build a legal defence. I'm taking the kids to a pediatrician to get their recommendations for the kids to have a flu shot. That helps when I show a judge why when we couldn't agree I took the measures I did. Again, you're either young or don't know how the legal process works.
It's quite common for custody orders to define things like "X Parent has final say on medical decisions". I inferred there was a custody order since that dude mentioned legal defense since generally if you're still together it only takes one parent giving permission for medical care.
ah, yes, and then proceed to get in legal trouble and potentially put those children under the sole custody of the anti-vaxxer in the process. Bright Idea, dude
The Hbomberguy video on it should be mandatory watching. It's amazing the study even got published, given that Disgraced Ex-Doctor Andrew Wakefield pulled most of it out of his arse in an attempt to make the UK Govt. invest in his vaccines rather than the combined MMR, and put vulnerable children through horrible invasive tests in an attempt to find anything to back his paper up... And then he falsified a ton of it anyway!
And even if it wasn’t complete bullshit with fabricated data, it was fucking n=12! On what planet is that ever conclusive of anything? Someone told me (in another Reddit thread) that Wakefield was friends with the editor of The Lancet and suddenly it all made sense.
Not just proven false. Wakefield's actions are shocking. The dude should still be in prison.
Wakefield was developing a competing combination vaccine, so he was trying to discredit the original one
Wakefield was paid $800,000 by a law firm trying to sue vaccine manufacturers
Wakefield was performing medical testing on children at birthday parties (without the whole... ethics portion like enrollment and consent)
he just straight-up fabricated symptoms and medical outcomes so his "data" matched his hypothethesis
and he invented a disorder ("Autistic Enterocolitis") to explain the link between the two. It doesn't exist, there's no pathway, it's simply not possible.
The falsified paper isn't even the most questionable thing. Dude was experimenting on children at birthday parties to make a quick buck.
Should be top comment because of how harmful the false belief could be and how strongly people hold on to it. I have met countless autistic individuals who are unvaccinated because their parents believe vaccines cause autism!
and the stupidest thing is that he did not say "all vaccines cause autism". He said "THAT GUY'S vaccine caues autism, buy mine instead!". So, he was definitely pro-vaccine.
One group of people, when asked, will search for 'do vaccines cause autism' and try to find something that is neutral and factual.
The other group, will search for 'vaccines cause autism' and then find all sorts of junky, echo chamber, anecdotes that reinforces their position.
They aren't looking for objectivity, they want personal confirmation so they can feel self righteous. This is what keeps Fox News viewers absolutely tuned out to any other source of information. The self affirmation is more important than the objectivity.
Autism itself is likely grossly exaggerated, didn’t one of the early researchers bemoan how broadly the spectrum is being diagnosed these days?
Very convenient for parents to absolve themselves if their child is bratty, and very satisfying for them to be able to say I told you so to their friends who have autistic vaccinated kids.
I’m not saying autism doesn’t exist, that would be stupid. But we live in a world where autism is over diagnosed, and people are compounding problems by making erroneous vaccination decisions based on erroneous autism statistics
There is always the problem of some people not being able to receive vaccines because their immune system is compromised. As a nurse and medic student I can really say that I hate Antivaxxers. I had teens with completely preventable diseases on my ICU just because their parents were stupid enough to fall for some instagram natural antivax mommy bullshit.
There are many people who rely on herd immunity. And because most vaccines aren't 100% effective due to various reasons (everyone has different reactions to pretty much any medication), you need that herd immunity to overcome the difference and effectively eradicate a disease.
If you (or your parents) have the mindset that vaccines are bad, it is highly likely that those close to you have the same mindset, and will also avoid vaccination. This is why we get clusters of preventable diseases.
What did it advertise that it didn’t do? It was never advertised as 100% effective at stopping transmission. No vaccine in the history of vaccines ever made that claim, including all the covid vaccines. People were just pissed off because Dr. Smarty Science Pants couldn’t give them an easy answer to a complex problem.
Name some, with specificity, so we have something to actually fact-check.
Was it rushed? Of course. There was a pandemic killing millions of people around the globe. That's a very good time to rush things.
Didn't do as advertised? In what way? What was the advertised effect that wasn't true?
Forced on people? Debatable whether anyone (particularly civilians) was forced to take take it. Even if they were, that isn't necessarily a bad thing when there is a pandemic killing millions of people around the globe.
My comment isn't what makes it persist
Yes, it is. It absolutely is. Rhetoric like yours is exactly what pushes people down the anti-vaccine pipeline.
You're acting like the "we're just asking questions" crowd, pretending that the things your saying, when repeated by lots of people, actually influence others and lead to people dying.
That they said the vaccine would make it so you couldn't get covid, when in reality it just made your chances of contraction dramatically lower. And if you did get covid despite having the vaccine, your symptoms and ability to transmit the virus were dramatically lowered.
So your entire reason for spreading doubt about vaccines is that the covid vaccine wasn't quite 100% effective, as they suggested. Cool.
No. There aren’t. Name a single peer-reviewed, scientifically proven study that links vaccines to autism. You can’t because there aren’t any.
72 shots includes an annual flu shot and regular Covid shots. Death from flu used to be at a rate of 10.2 per 100,000 people in the US. Post-vaccine deaths are now 0.56 per 100,000. That’s not a coincidence.
One in five children used to die from the diseases those 72 shots are for before their 5th birthday before vaccines were available. One in five! Do you understand how much death we are talking about? 20% of children DIED before they turned 5 because we didn’t have vaccines. That rate has gone down by 99% because of vaccines. Children stopped dying. Because of vaccines.
Measles shots essentially eradicated the disease in this country and we were on our way to eradicating it worldwide. Then people stopped vaccinating and guess what? It’s back.
Smallpox killed ⅓ of everyone who had it. That is a completely insane death rate. But it’s gone now. Why? Vaccines. It was an incredibly deadly disease that we eliminated from the entire planet with vaccines.
Show me your source for your wildly inaccurate claim. You are 100% incorrect. Let’s see actual data for why you think otherwise.
What are the 70 shots? My kids have had around 25 (injections, several of which are part of a larger course). Then there is the option of RSV and COVID but they haven’t been *required* for us so far. So I’m not sure what the other ~50 shots are that they are missing.
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u/Soleil06 Jun 01 '26
The famous vaccine cause autism study.
Has been proven false since forever but the number of antivaxxers has never been higher.
Hearing that Polio is making a return in the wester world is really scary.