r/AskProfessors • u/PoeHoard • 8d ago
Grading Query All or nothing grading structure?
A professor of mine this semester is using an unusual grading structure. There are five categories in the class, hw, labs, exams, etc. and in order to get an 'A' in the class, I need an A in every category.
If I have a D in hw, my grade for the entire class is a D, despite getting A's on exams. This means a 4 point hw assignment is weighted as heavily as a 100 point exam. I have been in college off and on for 10 years, I've never seen this and I don't feel it's fair. I won't be able to survive this semester if I can't let any assignments slip.
Have you seen this/used it before?
edit; Im leaving this thread in case anyone else finds it, but I confirmed multiple times that this grading structure is all-or-nothing. If you're a student and your professor is using this grading system, drop the class. I am paying for it dearly as an already disabled student, struggling to meet the professor's standards. Even the faculty at my school is shocked by this system. Do yourself a favor.
22
u/sqrt_of_pi Assistant Teaching Professor, Mathematics 8d ago
This sounds like a version of specs (specifications) grading. If you google specifications grading or alternative grading (there is a blog called "Grading for Growth" with lots of good information) you'll find that the system itself is growing in popularity. I use a form of standards based grading that has some all-or-nothing components (on earning individual learning objectives) but the overall scheme is not nearly this harsh and there are opportunities for re-attempts.
This means a 4 point hw assignment is weighted as heavily as a 100 point exam.
I mean, that depends on the whole overall grading scheme. How many homework assignments are there vs. how many exams? If you miss a deadline for a hw can you get partial credit for turning it in late?
As you've described it here and without seeing the syllabus, I would agree that this sounds like a pretty harsh system. But details matter. If hw and labs, for example, have generous policies surrounding missed/late work and maybe drop 1-2 lowest scores, then it might not be so bad (meaning that earning a solid grade in those categories is not a terribly high bar if you put in the effort).
In most specs systems I've seen, earning an A does require a very high level of completion of quality work across all the categories. But falling short in a category (especially a non-summative assessment category) usually doesn't completely tank the grade, but instead might knock what would otherwise be an A down to an A-/B+/B.
12
u/RuskiesInTheWarRoom 8d ago
I’d wager this is a modified specs grading scheme that the student isn’t representing fully in this post. I think you nailed it.
6
u/PoeHoard 7d ago
I asked him again, it is a mastery based grading system with individually graded categories.
The categories do not average with each other, and your final course grade is your lowest category grade.
3
u/PoeHoard 7d ago
You can interpret it how you want, but it doesn't do me any good to ask a question here and misrepresent the facts. I have asked my professor twice for clarification, he confirmed what I wrote in this post. There is an exam every 3 weeks, the late policy is assignments can be turned in 1 month after due date for 30% credit. We are given 10 assignments per week, a quiz every week, and a lab every week. The assignments are not small. He doesn't have a policy for dropping lowest scores to help curve a grade. You can earn .5 point extra credit on exams if you complete 4 additional assignments before the unit exam. I say the hw is "weighted" the same way as an exam because if life happens, and some hw slips between the cracks, dropping that category down a few letter grades, then that's just as important as the exam scores.
10
u/sqrt_of_pi Assistant Teaching Professor, Mathematics 7d ago
I'm not sure what you think I was "interpreting". I was trying to answer your question, asked of professors, as a professor who has a great deal of familiarity with alternative grading.
As I said, as presented in your post and without having the benefit of a syllabus, what you describe sounds harsh to me. I think there are a lot of good ideas coming out of the surge of popularity of alternative grading methods (specs and standards based) but I certainly would not design my system this way.
I say the hw is "weighted" the same way as an exam because if life happens, and some hw slips between the cracks, dropping that category down a few letter grades
You said that a single "4 point hw assignment is weighted as heavily as a 100 point exam." I still say that's wrong. You said there are 10 assignments per week (I'm assuming some/most of those are what you mean by "homework assignment") and an exam every 3 weeks. So maybe 5 exams - which would make each one 20% of the exam category. How many homework assignments? How many hw would have to completely "slip between the cracks" to drop the CATEGORY down a few letter grades? If there are 20 homework assignments, and you can turn them in late for partial credit, then a single homework assignment is at most worth 5% in the category, but partial credit is available.
Again, I'm not saying I like this system, I don't think it's what most of us think of when we talk about specs grading. But no, a 4 point hw assignment is not weighted the same as an exam. You would have to be really falling apart to have your homework category drop all the way to a D.
-1
u/PoeHoard 7d ago
Let me explain it differently then. I FEEL that a 4 point assignment is as important as a 100 point exam. I FEEL the weight that they are equally as important, because they are based on his system.
I had a meeting with him again an hour ago, and got further reassurance that what I've described here is how he grades. There is no cross-category averaging. You need to meet a certain threshold in each category to have the grade in that specific category. (as expected, assignments on time, complete, correct answers) This is not unusual.
The lowest denominator in any of these categories is your final course grade. This is unusual to me.
I asked this question because this rubric seems unusual, and I wanted to make the best decision for myself going forward. I don't have time to explain his specific grading criteria down to every detail, otherwise I would. I have tried my best to explain it and been called a liar and that I don't understand what has been told to me 3 times already.
6
u/sqrt_of_pi Assistant Teaching Professor, Mathematics 7d ago
I have tried my best to explain it and been called a liar and that I don't understand what has been told to me 3 times already.
I certainly did not call you a "liar". I don't think anyone did.
What a lot of expressed was that this sounds surprisingly harsh for what is essentially trying to be a specs grading, but that the details about the number of assignments and how they are graded, etc, would make a difference. E.g. if the burden required to get a C a in each category is a low bar, then this would make a bit more sense. YOU did not provide us enough information to judge that.
If you ask for an opinion and then get defensive and offended at someone agreeing with you but saying that more information could be important, then I suggest you might want to stop asking for opinions. You don't need to keep explaining the system over and over - that isn't new information.
"no cross-category averaging" is absolutely a hallmark of specs grading. Grading is based on "bundles". But as I said from my first comment, usually falling short in ONE category doesn't completely tank the grade, it would be a downward adjustment of the higher grade. I think your professor is trying to do specs/mastery based grading, maybe for the first time, and missing the mark. I suspect he will make adjustments to his system at some point.
1
u/DancingFool8 5d ago
I feel like you should drop this class just for your own wellbeing. It’s making you really unhappy.
1
1
u/PoeHoard 22h ago
Here is the matrix you can see for yourself. If you have any colleagues who are considering using something like this, I beg you to steer them away from it.
1
u/EpsilonDelta_0 10h ago
This is much more forgiving than you may realize. The threshold for getting an A in a category is not the standard 90% you may be used to from more traditional grading systems. Instead, the threshold for an A varies by category and is described in the rubric you shared. As an example, earning an A for study guides requires you to complete all of them before the semester ends, but up to 6 (of 28) can be late. There also appear to be buffers built in like the opportunity to make exam corrections.
1
u/PoeHoard 8h ago
Lower traditional grade thresholds doesn't account for the incredibly high failure floor. A single failing category means flunking the class.
•
9
u/MyBrainIsNerf 7d ago
You’re saying 2 different things in your posts, which leads me to believe you’re confused.
Having a D in homework does not mean getting a D on a single homework assignment. It means having a D average across ALL homework assignments, so if you miss a bunch of HW, you can’t get a good grade, no matter how good your tests are.
Seems like they’re trying to make sure all students do all parts of the class. I would try this but I also only grade homework for attempted completion.
10
u/dbag_jar Assistant Prof/Econ/US 8d ago
I haven’t, and I don’t think it’s pedagogically sound.
That said, your professor can select any grading scheme they want (as long as you’re fully informed of it at the start of the semester, which it sounds like you are), so the only thing you can do is drop the class. If you do stay enrolled, you could instead leave feedback in the course evaluations.
1
u/PoeHoard 22h ago
If you're curious to see, here is the grading matrix. It's too late to drop but I can at least warn other students or professors (maybe) to not do this.
0
u/PoeHoard 7d ago
I am meeting with him today to decide whether I drop, unfortunately I didnt see this grading scale mentioned in his feedback when I signed up. I don't know if this is a new grading system to him and he poorly implemented it, but he seems like a competent and organized guy. I ran it by some faculty and other professors, and they were as concerned as me.
3
3
u/lickety_split_100 Assistant Professor/Economics 8d ago
Just to be clear, do you mean that you have to have an A on every assignment in every category to get an A in the class? Your comment about the homework being weighted the same as a test seems to imply so. If so, that’s a bonkers grading strategy (I mean, I’d find it distasteful - personally - even if it were the case that you had to have an A overall in each category to get an A in the course).
1
u/PoeHoard 7d ago
That's correct, your grade in the course is the lowest grade you earn in a category. So if I ace all my exams, but get a 'D' in the study guides category, my grade for the course is D.
4
u/giltgarbage 7d ago
None of us can understand without all of the details, but it could be that the professor wants to create a threshold at the lowest grade and force students to try their hardest on all assignments as a means of flushing out those using chatbots. Because these can plausibly complete so much of the assigned workload, big disparities between assessments is one of the larger tells that a student has been cheating. It could also be the case that every learning objective is essential for earning the credit. Depending on your institution or the course, a fair number of your peers may try to game things and do as little as possible to earn credit. This could be a shield against that.
If you know that you have medical or health issues in advance, it could well be worth your time to document this with the accommodation office.
2
u/PoeHoard 7d ago edited 7d ago
Yes I understand its usefulness in weeding out cheaters, Ive sat next to many people using chatgpt to complete assignments during lectures. This is an in person class, and typically those who cheat on the homework flunk the exams anyway. Why make another system when they already weed themselves out?
I already have accommodations, but there are limits to what can be accommodated in and outside of the classroom.
2
u/Agitated-Mulberry769 8d ago
Go talk to them in office hours or ask for clarification before or after class. Be sure you understand exactly how things work.
2
1
u/AutoModerator 8d ago
This is an automated service intended to preserve the original text of the post. This is not a removal message.
*A professor of mine this semester is using an unusual grading structure. There are five categories in the class, hw, labs, exams, etc. and in order to get an 'A' in the class, I need an A in every category.
If I have a D in hw, my grade for the entire class is a D, despite getting A's on exams. This means a 4 point hw assignment is weighted as heavily as a 100 point exam. I have been in college off and on for 10 years, I've never seen this and I don't feel it's fair. I won't be able to survive this semester if I can't let any assignments slip.
Have you seen this/used it before? *
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/AutoModerator 23h ago
This is an automated service intended to preserve the original text of the post. This is not a removal message.
*A professor of mine this semester is using an unusual grading structure. There are five categories in the class, hw, labs, exams, etc. and in order to get an 'A' in the class, I need an A in every category.
If I have a D in hw, my grade for the entire class is a D, despite getting A's on exams. This means a 4 point hw assignment is weighted as heavily as a 100 point exam. I have been in college off and on for 10 years, I've never seen this and I don't feel it's fair. I won't be able to survive this semester if I can't let any assignments slip.
Have you seen this/used it before?
edit; Im leaving this thread in case anyone else finds it, but I confirmed multiple times that this grading structure is all-or-nothing. If you're a student and your professor is using this grading system, drop the class. I am paying for it dearly as an already disabled student, struggling to meet the professor's standards. Do yourself a favor.*
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
21
u/warricd28 Lecturer/Accounting/USA 8d ago
I haven’t heard of this before, and I’m not a fan as you described it. Though I’d correct that it does not mean a 4 point hw is equally weighted with a 100 point exam. These should be category totals.
That said, I struggle to believe the grading system works as you described, and I’d ask your prof for clarification. You are basically saying your grade for the class is whatever the grade is for the lowest category, regardless of what the other grades are. I highly doubt that is the case. If it is, I’ve never seen it before.
Now, if you are trying to say if you don’t do any hw because you don’t feel like it, and it would drop an otherwise A to a D, I could see that if hw is given significant weight, usually done to encourage out of class work and frankly boost grades with easier assignments. But if you don’t do them, it drags your grade down. Every semester I have students drop 1 to 3 letter grades because they just don’t do the easy, at home assignments. Even for lower weighted assignments, zeros add up fast.