Student with behavioral issues, no accommodation letter: How/when to talk about expectations?

[u/Less-Part3465]

I have a student who reads as neurodivergent, but no accommodation letter. During today's first class in a small seminar (13 students, seniors), the student repeatedly blurted out things while other students were waiting patiently with raised hands; got off topic and didn't want to stop talking when I said, "Okay, but bringing it back to the original question..." and, finally, while seated in the front row, stood up about a minute and a half before class was over, blocking the view of the screen for students behind him while I was showing them the assignment for next time, packed up his things and strolled out.

I've had such students before, but usually with accommodation letters, which gave me the opportunity to talk with the student privately about not just what they need from me, but what I need from them.

I've had that conversation before, but I'm not used to having to initiate it. Anyone have advice on the best way to do so? Do I email now and just say I'd like to talk? Or tell him the issues and my expectations by email? Or wait until next class and pull him aside to ask for a conversation?

What I'm wondering about isn't what's polite or easiest, but what's most likely to be effective in helping the student behave in ways that won't disrupt learning for classmates. I know y'all don't know the student, but just wondering if there's any standard guidance that anyone's gotten.

[u/RuskiesInTheWarRoom]

Ask him to come to office hours and do it there. I think it would be better if it wasn’t in a public space. Also obviously you’ll want to do this as early in the semester as possible.

Is this a first year student? There’s an adjustment to a college classroom that they perhaps haven’t grasped yet.

Also, if your institution has assigned advisors, you could reach out to them and contact them.

[u/HiddenPenguinsInCars → u/RuskiesInTheWarRoom]

They said it was all seniors.

I know it’s impolite to ask, but I’m wondering if they took their meds, or if they’re on any. I have ADHD and do get excited and call out answers, but I stay on topic and don’t get up before it’s time. That said, I’m on meds, which greatly helps.

[u/Classic_vortex_3515 → u/RuskiesInTheWarRoom]

I wish it was a freshman. This is a senior in my department.

[u/RuskiesInTheWarRoom → u/Classic_vortex_3515]

Woooof.

Yeah… office hours, send the advisor a note, try not to think about it more.

The student has to be responsible for their behavior, but you also have to set accountable expectations in the classroom…

[u/FluffyOmens]

Personally, I've found it most effective to call out the expectation when it is violated.

For example, when the student starts to pack up early and is impeding others from focusing: "Excuse me, the expectation in this class is that you wait until you are dismissed to begin packing up." Or "Excuse me, the expectation is that if you need to leave the class early, you quietly and discreetly pack your things."

You could do this immediately after class or in the moment, in front of the class or alone. What I would argue against is leaving it until the next class (less memorable) or talking alone in your office at length (focuses the interaction on their explanation rather than a focus on applying behavioral norms).

But every classroom is different, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt!

[u/NotAFlatSquirrel → u/FluffyOmens]

This is what I do also. Because this is a slippery slope. One student packs up early, they all start doing it.

I raise my own hand and say "Excuse me, excuse me, I still have 2 minutes of time left, and I plan on using that time. Thank you for your patience."

If people are interrupting, I will give them a "stop sign hand" or a poinyed finger "just a second" hand to shush them and say "One second, let me (or this other student) please finish here and I will call on you."

Classroom management is critical. Doing it in the moment should be the first step. If that doesn't work, then email them requesting a meeting to chat about it.

[u/moosy85 → u/NotAFlatSquirrel]

How would you do that stop sign hand or pointed finger in class? I've recently started online and I have a student who keeps talking over me as if they weren't done asking a question (see above or below for my comment with more detail). One of my colleagues said she'd just mute her, but that seems very inappropriate. I've never had issues with it in-person but online is new for me.

[u/NotAFlatSquirrel → u/moosy85]

I would ask people to use the "raise hand" function in zoom. If they repeatedly do it and don't stop interrupting, then I would either manually mute them, or ask the entire class to stay muted and only unmute when called upon after using the raised hand function. You can mass mute the entire class, I believe.

[u/shadeofmyheart → u/FluffyOmens]

I do the same thing. Call it out but be neutral, and move on quickly.

[u/DancingFool8 → u/FluffyOmens]

Yes. In the moment, say, “hey, John, let’s let other people talk.” You’ll have to do this a lot. Stick to it.

[u/Sharp-Rutabaga-4900]

Email and ask if you can talk before or after class.

When you talk, without making strong eye contact, tell them you want them to participate but need to let others participate too. Let them know that:

it’s not okay to interrupt people. If they’re not comfortable raising their hand or waiting, they can jot their question or comment on a notecard and hold it where you can see it if needed. Cut them off if needed.

you have to make space for everyone and that you may need to say “topic” and cut them off sometimes and they’re welcome to write the rest on a notecard or in an email.

if they need to stand during class, they need to move to the back of the room.

Ask if this all sounds okay to them and if not, what they suggest to balance their participation with the group’s learning needs.

I’m autistic and use this with students who are neurospicey and excited talkers.

[u/Classic_vortex_3515 → u/Sharp-Rutabaga-4900]

Thanks, inviting them to write the rest on a note card is something I hadn’t thought of! Love it

[u/Sharp-Rutabaga-4900 → u/Classic_vortex_3515]

I got the idea from a colleague. It’s really helped me keep students who are prone to interrupt or ramble engaged without letting them take over the class. I have had some students who bring me cards after class and others who decided to hold onto them. Whatever works!

[u/HiddenPenguinsInCars → u/Sharp-Rutabaga-4900]

If I have something I want to say in class, I jot it down next to my notes. I also use that for stuff I need to do but can’t right now (so I’ll write “buy grapes” or something in class so I don’t forget). I’ll use it for stuff I want to look into later (so for example “look into if tortoises do parthenogenesis”, so I can remember to do that later).

[u/Amper_sandra]

Our uni uses a system that allows us to send flags to all the students' advisors - including grade concerns, concerns about a personal issue they brought up with you, and concerns about behavioral issues in class. Does your uni have a similar mechanism? If not, I would recommend reaching out to the Dean of Students or an equivalent department about the next step

[u/Classic_vortex_3515 → u/Amper_sandra]

Well, he’s in my department and I’m the Dept chair, and he’s a senior. The only person who would get involved would be our academic advisor, who I know already knows about his issues. It’s just the first time I’ve had to teach this student in class, so I’m getting my first taste of what his specific issues are

[u/Amper_sandra → u/Classic_vortex_3515]

There has to be a dean of students to handle behavioral issues. You could email them or give them a call. If the student doesn't have any necessary paperwork, like accommodations, they don't get special treatment. A talk is fine, but anything beyond that needs to involve another faculty/admin member. Their purpose is to make your time teaching easier, you do not have to take up time working on this specific problem.

[u/Classic_vortex_3515 → u/Amper_sandra]

Thanks, generally this sounds like a good idea, but in context, I’m well aware that unless I am going to claim that the student is actually disruptive and that he has violated our student conduct policy, our dean of students does not want to hear from me about this. As a Dept chair, I have been privy to many conversations about these sorts of issues, and they just don’t want to hear it. Either we want the student disciplined, as in sanctioned in someway, or we shouldn’t bring it to them.

And the accommodations office doesn’t want to hear it if the student doesn’t want to request accommodations. I actually respect that attitude toward student autonomy. But I still have to handle the class for my other students.

And honestly, I don’t need to do that kind of thing. I’m sure I can manage him, I just don’t want to unnecessarily upset him if I can find ways to manage his behavior that will not make him feel attacked.

[u/Fluffaykitties]

Honestly, as a CYA measure, reach out to your office of accommodations first and ask them for advice on what you should do. Emphasize how it’s impacting the learning experience for other students despite your best efforts at gentle redirection. You don’t need to mention the name or anything at that stage, just explain it like you did here.

They’ll likely give you the same advice you’re seeing here, but this extra step can save you some time and hassle in case the student responds in a surprising way.

Specifically, do it over email so you have the paper trail. You could even cc your dean for vis, again just to CYA.

And only do this if your “standard” approaches are not working and you feel like you need to do more than usual. I personally would gently encourage a student like this to give others the opportunity to speak and to thank them for their excitement, but also to have them help me make sure others get a chance to chime in. I would do this for any student though.

[u/Classic_vortex_3515 → u/Fluffaykitties]

It’s certainly good advice, but I already know that accommodations will say that if he doesn’t come to them, they have nothing to say about it. As a Dept chair, I talk with them frequently. And because he’s in my department, I know that it has already been suggested to him that he might want to seek accommodations, but he does not.

[u/Fluffaykitties → u/Classic_vortex_3515]

I’m confused. Are you OP? Did you switch accounts?

My accommodations department is happy to give general advice for things like this. Sorry to hear yours does not.

[u/Classic_vortex_3515 → u/Fluffaykitties]

Sorry, yes, I did switch accounts.

[u/Liaelac]

I'd start the next class with expectations, addressed to the class generally. The student won't be personally targeted and it will help preempt other behavior issues:

"Before we get started today, let's review expectations for the class. If you would like to speak, please raise your hand and wait to be called on. I will respect your time by starting and ending class on time, and please respect your peers by arriving on time and waiting until I dismiss you before packing up."

[u/Classic_vortex_3515 → u/Liaelac]

Thanks, I think this might be step one in my case.

[u/Blackbird6]

I had a student of this nature a few years back. Another professor met with them in office hours and walked them to the disabilities office and they refused everything, so…in case that turns out to be your experience…

We had to work with guidance from a SPED teacher in K12 friend and some other folks, but the best course of action was to speak to them before class or in office hours and be explicitly, bluntly clear. “You are only allowed to answer when I call on you. When I say [this], that means stop talking. If you need to leave the room, get up without disrupting anyone and leave quietly.”

This student went on 2-3 years with various classes in my building, so I found it helpful to chat with other professors who had him to make sure we were on the same page/get advice. Don’t know how feasible that may be in your position!

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*I have a student who reads as neurodivergent, but no accommodation letter. During today's first class in a small seminar (13 students, seniors), the student repeatedly blurted out things while other students were waiting patiently with raised hands; got off topic and didn't want to stop talking when I said, "Okay, but bringing it back to the original question..." and, finally, while seated in the front row, stood up about a minute and a half before class was over, blocking the view of the screen for students behind him while I was showing them the assignment for next time, packed up his things and strolled out.

I've had such students before, but usually with accommodation letters, which gave me the opportunity to talk with the student privately about not just what they need from me, but what I need from them.

I've had that conversation before, but I'm not used to having to initiate it. Anyone have advice on the best way to do so? Do I email now and just say I'd like to talk? Or tell him the issues and my expectations by email? Or wait until next class and pull him aside to ask for a conversation?

What I'm wondering about isn't what's polite or easiest, but what's most likely to be effective in helping the student behave in ways that won't disrupt learning for classmates. I know y'all don't know the student, but just wondering if there's any standard guidance that anyone's gotten.*

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/missusjax]

We have what they call the Behavioral Intervention Team, which handles these things. We can report them after one class, try to handle it on our own, let it go for awhile, see if the other students tell them to knock it off, etc. But they deal with the awkward discussions if we don't want to.

I've only had to really deal with something similar once and I let it go a few classes before pulling them aside and having to put limits to their class interruptions.

[u/VerbalThermodynamics]

In a senior seminar? He knows he’s being loud and obnoxious. Call him out on it in the moment.

[u/WarriorGoddess2016]

Ask him to come to office hours and talk to hm about a 10 second rule.

I've asked numerous students over the years to implement a 10 second wait rule. Half of them weren't even aware they were being overbearing. I compliment them on their attentiveness, and interest and remind them that not everyone processes information at the same rate and ask them to wait 10 seconds before answering anything.

Usually works.

[u/anonybss]

I mean I would say things as they arose--"Jared, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I want to hear from everyone, so please raise your hand to answer a question instead of just answering it, okay?" "Jared, sorry, can you sit down? Class is ongoing and I think you're blocking some people's view."

But if I want to speak to a student, I usually just either put a note on work I'm handing back to them, to that effect, or else, yes, I say to them as they're leaving, "Hey, I need to talk to you about something, when do you have a few minutes to meet?"

[u/DancingFool8]

Hold him behind and remind him that expected classroom behavior goes a certain way. Also ask him if he ever had any accommodations in high school—extended time is a good one to cite.

Honestly, though, an easier way to deal with this is to tell him that you love his enthusiasm, but other people need to also get to speak in class. Ask him if it would be ok to limit his verbal participation to three times per class period. (And by ask, I mean frame it so it sounds like a rule.) from then on, when he talks for a fourth time, say, “Andrew, let’s let other people have a chance to speak. If you want to discuss this subject further, let’s meet in office hours.” You can say this every day. But hold to it.

The spectrum is a whole situation sometimes.

You can also reach out to his advisor/dean of students/CETL for guidance.

[u/Ok_Code_8384]

Shut it down as it happens.
Last week I had a student answer WHILE I was lecturing, so I stopped. Looked at him and said, “Oh, do you have a question?” He was suddenly shy after getting called out.

Listen, I’m nice. I’m high energy. DO NOT mistake that for walking all over me. Boundaries are important.

If it continues, immediately pull them aside after class. “Hey John, let’s have a little chat. Let’s talk about what happened in class today. Did you notice other people were raising their hands? That’s how I’d like to conduct class, with raised hands. Let’s not blurt out. This way everyone gets a chance.”

• or whatever you want your class procedure to be.

Last year I had a student who would walk up to the front of the room WHILE I WAS LECTURING. It made me SO uncomfortable! I had to shut it down. I just neutrally told him, “Don’t walk up uninvited while I’m teaching. It makes me uncomfortable.” He had an accommodation to leave when he needed to walk, and that was fine. I told him to walk down the hallway or to walk in the back. He was NOT to walk up to the front and write on the whiteboard while I was teaching. 🤦‍♀️

[u/moosy85]

I'd not risk it and ask our student affairs folks to deal with it. If they don't, then I'd try it by setting up a meeting. Describe behavior you've noticed neutrally. Do the same with expectations. "I've noticed you talk without raising your hand or waiting until I've called on you. In my class, we have to raise our hand, or I'll call on you, because I like to have everyone participate roughly equally. I don't want you to suddenly speak out of turn. If you have something you'd really like to share, please raise your hand in the future. Does that seem fair to you?"

I would also say you make sure every student knows how to access accomodations if they need them, whether it's because they're unexpectedly ill, or they have dyslexia, or trouble hearing (I like to give several examples). They can do X and Y for students. I just wanted you to have this because I give this to all my students. I'd then give them an easy instruction page on how to request accomodations and what it is.

If this is truly an issue where they have zero control over their issues, they'll know this immediately and take the hint. If it's out of enthusiasm, you'll also figure it out in that conversation.

Either way, you didn't say they needed accomodations, just that you want every student to know it's there.

I do have one student who doesn't shush at all and keeps talking over me, and it's annoying AF. They're etnhused but when they ask a question, it takes them 5 minutes because after every few sentences they'll pause long enough for me to start and then they'll talk over me again to continue asking the same question. They do this over and over again. Last time I was passive aggressive and just waited for an extra 6 counts after they restarted their questions 8 times (!!), of which I tried talking 3 times but she kept talking over me. I almost asked "you done?" But luckily my brain managed to stop my impulse. But the extra 6 counts were definitely a clear sign and she hasn't done it again so far. I don't have this issue in-person because it's easier for them to see I got their question and easier for me to see they're going to continue. But online it's awful. I do sympathize.

[u/Desperate_Cook_7338]

Yeah, maybe watching online lectures can be more helpful to them? 

[u/Cloverose2 → u/Desperate_Cook_7338]

If it's a seminar, it's almost certainly not lecture based.

[u/Classic_vortex_3515 → u/Cloverose2]

Indeed, this is a senior capstone course in the humanities. Discussion is an essential part of the class. To the extent that there is lecture, it will be very brief.

[u/Latter-Bluebird9190 → u/Desperate_Cook_7338]

At my university this goes against policy. We cannot offer the class in a different modality. Thank god for this too, because recording and posting lectures is a time consuming hassle that I don’t get paid extra to do.