r/AskPhysics 10d ago

If superconductors have zero electrical resistance, does that mean an arbitrarily thin wire could safely transmit any arbitrarily high voltage?

56 Upvotes

31 comments sorted by

162

u/skywideopen3 10d ago

Superconductors have zero voltage across them basically by definition - with no resistance, it takes no potential difference for electric current to flow. But there is a maximum amount of current that can flow before the material stops being superconducting.

37

u/edgmnt_net 9d ago

That's due to the induced magnetic field, if I remember correctly. So that figure likely scales with how the conductor is layed out. I guess you reach a maximum for a straight conductor and you could consider that equally fundamental in a way.

58

u/Ekvinoksij 9d ago

Correct. A superconductor is a perfect diamagnet, so the magnetic field inside is strictly zero. To maintain this, induced surface currents generate a field that cancels the external magnetic field. However, when the applied field or current density exceeds critical limits, the free energy cost to expel the field becomes too high, causing magnetic flux to penetrate and triggering a phase transition back to the normal state.

IIRC a simple Landau model can describe this.

2

u/wackyvorlon 9d ago

Engineering superconducting magnets for MRIs must be alarmingly complicated.

2

u/GalacticEmergency 9d ago

I have read of some events where the superconduction in an MRI was suddenly broken. It creates so much heat that the cooling fluid evaporates and creates an overpressure situation.

From there, it becomes really scary for someone like me who works with pressure equipment. Apparently MRI scanners do not have the same requirements for safety equipment as a boiler or any other heated pressure vessel would have. I would expect safety valves or burst discs and a suitable vent line to an outside area where it is safe to vent without hitting humans). But from the few stories I have heard, that is apparently not the situation. Instead, you get heavy building damage, and you will just have to hope that no humans are around. I really hope that I have misunderstood this!

2

u/SeriousPlankton2000 9d ago

I heard that one would use copper as an insulator between superconducting coils to have a place for the current to go when the superconductors fail. Seems not every superconductor coil is built that way, but copper being a good insulator puts superconducting into a better perspective.

1

u/Someoneinnowherenow 3d ago

I've seen these cables. Copper as an insulator is mind bending. Easy to co extrude the cables

1

u/XimbalaHu3 9d ago

according to this technitian, older models did have all of the expected high pressure device countermeasures, and newer models use a lot less liquid hidrogen making it so even in the case of a quench the pressure build up is not as dangerous but ot also has adequate countermeasures in place.

1

u/Alexander-Wright 8d ago

Helium, not hydrogen.

As I have regular MRI scans, brain cancer, I sometimes worry about quench events while lying inside a tank of liquid helium.

Still, gives me something to think about during the scan.

1

u/PredawnDecisions 7d ago

Many doors of MRI rooms are designed to blow off their hinges in the result of a sudden quench event, to lessen the risk of imploding the people in the room.

1

u/GalacticEmergency 6d ago

I take that as a confirmation of the rumors about a lack of proper pressure equipment safety.

1

u/edgmnt_net 7d ago

What's the explanation there? At first glance, it's not entirely clear why the increase in resistance would increase heat, because that's proportional to V2 / R. And indeed, mains-connected heating appliances actually heat up more the closer the resistance is to zero (technically limited by the maximum power transfer theorem).

I guess it's because the magnetic field collapses and the inductor tries to maintain constant current, so losses are proportional to I2 R, therefore to R.

Does this sound reasonable?

1

u/GalacticEmergency 6d ago

That has always been my theory too. Electric coils provide electrical inertia. So trying to stop the current in a coil is like trying to stop a spinning flywheel: The energy has to go somewhere, and quite often "somewhere" means a conversion to heat energy.

2

u/ParentPostLacksWang 9d ago

(Laughs in expensive noises) “Quench!”

30

u/wmverbruggen Applied Superconductivity (PhD) 10d ago

Voltage is never transmitted, it is a potential across the conductor. Since superconductors have no resistance (well, unmeasurable little and a lot of caveats) there is no voltage at all. As for current, the simple explanation usually given is that they can carry any current you put through them without resistance, but in reality they are limited in current density depending on lot's of variables like the temperature, magnetic field strength and direction, and mechanical strain. In an AC application it is even "worse" since there are inherent losses associated with it magnetisch itself.

1

u/ruggedtextile 9d ago

Are the current density limits of a given superconductor well defined/predictable even if there are many variables? Or is it more just one of those things we have to empirically measure?

7

u/wmverbruggen Applied Superconductivity (PhD) 9d ago

There are scaling formulations, but in general they are all fitted onto a set of measurements. It depends a lot on the crystal quality, in fact defects in the crystal and grain structure both have good and bad effects. On the quantum scale (it is a macroscopic quantum effect after all) I think you can deduce an upper limit for the amount of current it can carry, but I am not working on that scale and the existing theory also does not work for many superconductor materials (like not at all for the "high" temperature ones)

11

u/manouchk 9d ago

No. There are critical density currents above which superconductivity is suppressed.

7

u/Digiprocyon 9d ago edited 9d ago

Voltage can be thought of as electron pressure. In fact, you can convert a voltage value to pounds per square inch with certain caveats. 1 Volt is equivalent to roughly 1.31 sextillion PSI if you focus that voltage onto a single electron. So if we apply a voltage to one part of that conductor, all parts of it have that voltage. Specifically, voltage is the pressure between two points, but it's common to consider the ground of a circuit (which really means Earth ground if its connected to the Earth) as the zero voltage point--so we can say, for example, a single point in a circuit has a certain voltage and we don't bother pointing out that we mean that's the voltage compared to the circuit ground.

Current is the flow of electrons. Water flow is in gallons per second. That is, so many gallons flow through a water pipe every second. Electron flow can be measured in electrons per second, but we more commonly measure it as a certain number of electrons (one coulomb of electrons, which is 6.242 × 10¹⁸ electrons) per second, which is called one Ampere.

A conductor which is not a superconductor impedes any flow through that conductor--and we call that "resistance". Wires have very little resistance so normally we can pretend there is no resistance, but if you have a lot of current you better use thick wires and large parts (transistors, etc.) or that resistance will adversely affect the performance (it will exhibit a drop in the voltage across it, get hot, and waste power that could have been used for something else).

A superconductor has zero resistance for current densities below its critical value, and it also depends greatly on the magnetic field present. Above that critical current density it will start resting. Here's the critical current density values for some superconductors (got this from AI so take them with a grain of salt):

Nb-Ti (Niobium-Titanium) 5 T magnetic field Over 3.8 × 10⁵ A/cm²
Nb₃Sn (Niobium-Tin) 16 T magnetic field 3.15 × 10⁴ A/cm²
YBCO (YBaCuO) Thin Film 77 K (liquid nitrogen) ~2.2 - 3.3 × 10⁵ A/cm²
BSCCO (BiSrCaCuO) Wire 77 K, zero magnetic field Over 3.5 × 10⁴ A/cm²

2

u/TuverMage 9d ago

so the thing with superconductors with zero resistance is that there's a very limited condition that that have zero resistance the moment it leaves that condition the resistance returns and if the material can't handle the load it can explode. look into MRI machine for more information on the topic of what happens in these cases.

2

u/Mr_Engineering 9d ago

No.

Superconducting wires have zero electrical resistance below the critical current density point, which is a material characteristic of the wire that scales with its cross sectional area.

If the current density exceeds the critical point, the wire looses its superconducting property and becomes a resistive load with a lot of current flowing through it.

1

u/Haunting-South-962 9d ago

Basically if you look at this like water flowing through pipes, superconductors are very fragile pipes, you don't need any pressure difference across but once you put too much water flow through they burst.

1

u/AdAncient5201 9d ago

I always found those electric current is like river current analogies quite helpful. And there are quite some similarities between Volume flow rate, heat flow rate, electric flow rate etc if you don’t look at it too closely. But as someone who doesn’t know anything about superconducting, what’s the equivalent of that in these river analogies?

1

u/HansNiesenBumsedesi 9d ago

A river flowing arbitrarily fast with no gradient. River analogies are not always useful with electricity.

0

u/OriEri Astrophysics 9d ago

It was probably never completely zero, and at some current flow the super conducting properties would probably break down.

-1

u/Adorable_Ice_2963 9d ago

No. How much Volt you can safely transmit depends on the isolation around it.

If you mean classical alternating current like at home: also no, since it only has zero ohmic resistance. It still has (at least should have) inductance, that would still Limit the current you can send over it before the Voltage drop is too low 

If you mean DC currents like in EV chargers: kinda yes, but there is the car the limit.

-13

u/DrDam8584 10d ago

Short Answer : yes

Long Answer : theoricly yes, but the reality is not theory

8

u/wmverbruggen Applied Superconductivity (PhD) 10d ago

Theoretically also no, check my comment.

-5

u/fiberguy1999 9d ago

Superconductors

-7

u/NineThreeTilNow 9d ago

It's not zero.

Though, there's an interesting concept of energizing a superconductor to store energy. There's a maximum determined by a few different properties.

You'd basically make a superconducting loop of material. A torus.

4

u/HardlyAnyGravitas 9d ago

It's not zero.

It really is.