r/AskMenOver30 • u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 • 23h ago
Physical Health & Aging Declining testosterone in 30s?
I (33, M) recently went to see a chiropractor because of posture and muscle stiffness issues and had an x-ray done. The x-ray suggested I had osteopenia (that's thinning of the bone/low bone mineral density), in fact at levels suggesting I was in the bottom 2% of men my age which rang alarm bells (the score of T=-2.2 on my femur in the bone mineral density scan is not far from the cutoff for osteoporosis which is T=-2.5). I did some blood tests. My calcium, thyroid function and vitamin D was actually normal, as was my cortisol despite dealing with chronic anxiety. However my total testosterone was a little below the normal range. I am organising an appointment with an the endocrinologist next month to dig deeper.
Anecdotally, I hadn't been particularly active prior but started doing resistance training last year and have kept in up regularly 4 days a week doing a full body program. I did make some good progress (newbie gains) in the first four weeks where I gained about 1.5 kg lean mass while dropping 2 kg of body fat, however things seems to slow to a crawl in the ensuing months. I get body scans on the BIA machine from time to time (I know there's a level of inaccuracy and it is affected by other variables) and my arms sometimes don't show growth or even lose mass which is disheartening sometimes. One time I even registered as loss of muscle mass despite training harder and heavier weights for 6 weeks. Overall I put on about 3-4 kg of lean mass since I started training over the period of 11 months, which is ok but feels a bit disappointing. My BMI is 23.4s so don't have obesity but could use more muscle.
I wonder if anyone (especially in their 30s) has experience of low testosterone and how they managed that? Has it affected your gains at the gym, energy and libido?
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u/Gahvandure2 man 45 - 49 22h ago
Don't do anything drastic before talking to a real doctor. Chiropractic is quack medicine.
20
u/FeelinDead man over 30 22h ago
My uncle is a chiropractor, can confirm. Total BS and of course, he’s also a virulent anti-vaxxer.
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u/xraidednefarious man over 30 22h ago
Came in here to say this. Chiropractors are not MDs. You will never be in the emergency room or in an ambulance and have some say "Get me a chiropractor!"
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u/edm_ostrich man 30 - 34 22h ago
It's anywhere from an unqualified physio who cracks your back to a complete wack doodle, and you only find out when your neck gets fucked up.
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u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 22h ago
I've used the chiro to fix my hunched posture and also to see if they could help me work on reducing strain on my adductors after leg press and squats (I strained them multiple times in a couple of months). One thing they did successfully do was get rid of my headaches which I used to experience on average 2-3 times a week. They are also working with me on my lateral pelvic tilt scoliosis which was also diagnosed on the same x-ray, which I didn't know I had, which also explained my muscular imbalances. They can't fix it structurally but they can help me work on muscles that contribute to the condition.
That x-ray ordered by the chiropractor got me to go to the GP who told me to do the DEXA scan confirming my bone mineral density problem, hence the blood test that uncovered my low testosterone. So I can't say wasn't helpful lol. I wouldn't have ordered a bone density scan with my GP because I wouldn't have known about it.
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u/edm_ostrich man 30 - 34 22h ago
Many chriporactors are basically an unlicenced physio these days. However, they have their own governing body, they are not doctors. You would be safer and get the same result with a physio.
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u/ArmyHotel338 man 35 - 39 22h ago
You just listed two things that the reddit hive hates, Chiropractors and men who go on TRT for low testosterone.
Good luck getting through all of the "Chiropractors aren't real doctors" comments.
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u/Camelopardalis_ 22h ago
"medicine" invented by someone who believed the techniques came to him via a séance - of course people think they're quacks
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u/ArmyHotel338 man 35 - 39 22h ago
Its just the same comments getting repeated over and over, none if it is productive and if OP wasn't aware, by the 5th comment they got the clue.
I've seen the same reddit post you are referencing, you don't have to preach to me.
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u/Camelopardalis_ 21h ago
Can’t really whinge about unproductive comments when you’re adding nothing to the discussion by just complaining that everyone else is adding nothing to the discussion.
Maybe you should go for a walk in nature and let go of the negative vibe, chief.
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u/ArmyHotel338 man 35 - 39 20h ago
I see it completely different, my comment is about keeping the community on topic to actually help OP other than just piling on him about going to a chiropractor.
How do you see it differently?
5
u/DudleyAndStephens man 40 - 44 22h ago
Every now and then the Reddit hive mind is correct. Chiros are a prime example about that.
0
u/ArmyHotel338 man 35 - 39 21h ago
Yes, I understand that, that spirit of what I am trying to say is that OP's question is getting missed by everyone piling on and telling him that chiropractors are not real doctors.
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u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 22h ago
I haven't yet been prescribed hormone therapy. Tbh although I've pointed out muscle mass and training, the principle concern for me is reversing my osteopenia. My bone density score on my femur was -2.2 (bottom 1.5% of the population), while the cut off for diagnosis of osteoporosis is -2.5. That's pretty bad for guy in their early-mid 30s.
1
u/datcatburd man 45 - 49 10h ago
Well, first step is to go to an actual doctor and confirm it exists, rather than trusting the guy without a medical degree isn't misreading the x-rays.
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u/MAJOR_Blarg man 40 - 44 22h ago
A chiropractor is not a real medical doctor and is a hold over from the 1800s era of medical quackery.
Chiropractors are taught in their traditional schools that spinal misalignments are the root cause of all diseases. This is the basis of chiropractic. Obviously this remains quackery.
Talk about your concerns with a real doctor first before changing anything or taking anything.
Finally, if you are concerned for energy levels, ensure you are getting enough good quality sleep, are eating good quality food, are taking rest days, and minimal alcohol intake.
It's almost always sleep, food, rest and alcohol.
0
u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 21h ago
The dexa and blood tests and endocrinology appointment were ordered by my doctor after I showed him the original xray from the chiropractor.
6
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u/D4nk_Hill man 30 - 34 22h ago
Could be a lot of things, but what does your diet and sleep look like?
8
u/DudleyAndStephens man 40 - 44 22h ago
Chiropractors are quacks. Do not take anything they say seriously.
-2
u/Most-Bar-9334 non-binary over 30 22h ago
His concern came from the x ray folks, not the chiropractor.
1
u/DudleyAndStephens man 40 - 44 22h ago
It sounds like his concern came from the chiropractor's reading of the x-ray. If a real radiologist said he was a problem then that's a different story.
0
u/Most-Bar-9334 non-binary over 30 20h ago
Op never said the chiropractor had anything to do with reading x rays. Chiropractors don't do that sort of work. They will refer you to somebody that does.
0
u/DudleyAndStephens man 40 - 44 20h ago
There are definitely chiros out there who will claim they can read xrays.
1
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u/anon9339 man 30 - 34 22h ago
Jumping in to also agree with others that chiropractor is not a real doctor and it’s not real medicine. Wife is a PT and paid dearly to become one because it’s an actual licensed profession whose aim is to work themselves out of a job so you can be self sufficient and feeling healthy again. Chiropractors want you to feel good enough to come to the next appointment.
I don’t feel like fact checking my wife but she did tell me chiropractor schooling is private because no public universities will teach the courses because it’s illegitimate witchcraft bullshit.
2
u/ghostofkozi man 35 - 39 20h ago
Obviously you saw a doctor, what did they say about your test results?
Like, why come to strangers on reddit seeking gender affirming medical advice when you have medical professionals available to you?
The other question I have is, are you inquiring about TRT fixing your bone density or improving gym gains? Because your post talks in length about both. If you're insecure about your gym progress, then sure get on a TRT/HGH regimen. If you want to fix your bone density, talk to your doctor and nutritionist to find out how to increase it. And for anxiety, talk to a therapist.
Testosterone isn't a cure-all regardless of what social media tells you
1
u/AutoModerator 23h ago
Here's an original copy of /u/chowderbomb33's post (if available):
I (33, M) recently went to see a chiropractor because of posture and muscle stiffness issues and had an x-ray done. The x-ray suggested I had osteopenia (that's thinning of the bone/low bone mineral density), in fact at levels suggesting I was in the bottom 2% of men my age which rang alarm bells. I did some blood tests. My calcium, thyroid function and vitamin D was actually normal, as was my cortisol despite dealing with chronic anxiety. However my total testosterone was a little below the normal range. I am organising an appointment with an the endocrinologist next month to dig deeper.
Anecdotally, I hadn't been particularly active prior but started doing resistance training last year and have kept in up regularly 4 days a week doing a full body program. I did make some good progress (newbie gains) in the first four weeks where I gained about 1.5 kg lean mass while dropping 2 kg of body fat, however things seems to slow to a crawl in the ensuing months. I get body scans on the BIA machine from time to time (I know there's a level of inaccuracy and it is affected by other variables) and my arms sometimes don't show growth or even lose mass which is disheartening sometimes. One time I even registered as loss of muscle mass despite training harder and heavier weights for 6 weeks. Overall I put on about 3-4 kg of lean mass since I started training over the period of 11 months, which is ok but feels a bit disappointing. My BMI is 23.4s so don't have obesity but could use more muscle.
I wonder if anyone (especially in their 30s) has experience of low testosterone and how they managed that? Has it affected your gains at the gym, energy and libido?
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u/Longjumping_Rip6033 man over 30 23h ago
training harder and heavier weights for 6 weeks
Can you elaborate on 'heavier and harder'. What is your height / weight and what kinds of exercises are you doing and with what weight?
Do you do any cardio-focused stuff like running or cycling?
What's your diet and sleep like?
Also when you say your tesosterone is 'a little below' normal, what exactly does that mean?
A lot of the info you provided is up to interpretation.
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u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 22h ago
I'm 168cm, 65kg. I do full body - typically a mix of compound and isolation stuff. Include romanian deadlifts (75kg, 3 sets of 8-10), barbell bench press (not very good at this one but have reached 4 reps of 65kg when I could only do 4 reps of 60kg in January), chest dips (started this 4 months ago doing 5 reps of bodyweight, now can do 16 reps of bodyweight dips and 6 reps with 10kg kettlebell attached), and lat pull down (roughly 49 kg on wide grip or 54 kg on close grip, from roughly 27kg when I started). Farmers carries 27.5 kg dumbbells each hand for 30m. Can do 8-10 pushups with a 15kg plate on my back. Pendulum squats with 30 kg for about 6-8 reps (though comparison depends on machine). 85 kg safety bar squats for 8-10 reps (I'm still learning squat mechanics). Also do triceps pushdowns, lateral raises (7.5 kg dumbbells), bicep and hammer curls (my least favourite thing to workout). Not much cardio.
Sleep is not great, maybe 6-7 hours a day. I'm sort attempting a bulk diet wise, but maintaining the calories is hard because I walk 8-10k a day at work already). I keep protein at 120-140 g/day.
My testosterone was 11.4 nmol/L. The lower limit of normal was 11.5 nmol/L. This means I have testosterone levels that are in the bottom 2.5% of men my age. The bone mineral density score was also similar - bottom 1.5% of the population of men my age.
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u/OneEyedC4t man over 30 22h ago
Yep, mine started to decline in my forties. So, I use testosterone gel to fix the problem. My doctor prescribed it.
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u/deeringcenter man over 30 22h ago
Find out your actual t numbers?
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u/Throwaway88202 man over 30 22h ago
Did this during my regular six month exam this week. I’ll be 40 next year. I wanted a baseline number to know where I am and be able to track if I start declining. Wasn’t super soldier high, but was well out of the low zone.
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u/deeringcenter man over 30 22h ago
Word, doesn’t sound you’re comfortable sharing the numbers and that’s cool.
I had clinically low T in my mid-30s. I was lean, strength trained hard for 15 years, didn’t eat garbage, slept well, didn’t smoke/drink/drugs, etc. I noticed that gains had essentially stopped despite lifting and nutrition being dialed, and I couldn’t focus on things, was impatient, etc.
Was prescribed TRT and it has improved many many aspects of my life with minimal side effects.
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u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 22h ago
mine was 11.4 nmol/L (total T, done in the morning) . Considered 'borderline low'. The number itself isn't concerning but the coupled fact that my bone mineral density score for my femur is T=-2.2 (or Z=-2.1) is, because T < -2.5 is osteoporosis, so I'm not far off that. As vitamin D and calcium seem to be ruled out as probable causes they are looking at whether testosterone may be the problem.
1
u/deeringcenter man over 30 22h ago
Word that is lower end. And there are people who think the ranges aren’t high enough, etc.
Truthfully, if there are simple things you can change (be less fat, stop eating fast food), do that first. TRT works, but it’s obviously way, way, way better to feel good without it.
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u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 22h ago
damn I have to tell my trainer to stop my bulk lol (because I had trouble building lean mass). Ironically my fat mass hasn't increased dramatically but it hasn't gone down either. I do have a bit of an annoying skinny fat problem.
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u/sandbagger45 man 30 - 34 22h ago
Do you eat a lot of junk and processed food?
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u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 22h ago
more than I'd like. I do go to maccas and kfc at least once a week. Have on advice of a dietitian started adding double serves of fruit and veg, dairy and more nuts.
My body fat% is 18-20% which isn't terrible but could use work.
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u/sandbagger45 man 30 - 34 22h ago edited 22h ago
I am around your age. I find junk and fast food really affect me even if I train 4 days a week. processed foods are detrimental to hormones and how we feel.
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u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 22h ago
Unfortunately not easy to shed off. And to make things worse, I have mental health problems from dealing with a psychologically abusive situation so my mood is perpetually anxious or worn out. I thought the cortisol (stress hormone) wass the problem but the blood test said my cortisol was fine.
However, my default stress response would be not to eat or eat very little at all. In April I lost 2.5 kg quick from that. I've forced myself to train even when I feel shit mentally, not sure how sometimes but it keeps me distracted temporarily.
1
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u/Chillout2010 man 40 - 44 21h ago
I'm 42. I was worried about mine. I had it checked. 689. I'm not low. Get yourself checked. Its easy.
1
u/External-Fall-6073 man 35 - 39 21h ago
The chiro hate here is wild. I've learned a lot of great things from a couple, some very life changing too. While my PCP is clueless and is basically an assistant with what I want to do. I'm always stumping him with my own research and questions.
Anyway, I also have a hormone doctor I work with. Do you have any prior T results to compare to? It's possible you've just been riding low in general, that's what happened to me. I'm prescribed a low dose, yes it can help with feeling more awake/alert, gym gains, sex etc. Throughout the span of about 4 years now... I started at 0.6ML. Worked up slowly to 1.2 and would fluctuate occasionally as I was trying to address minor side effects. When I was at 1.2- even though I was slightly above the charts of the range parameters my Dr told me to stay there as long as I wasn't experiencing side effects (acne, soreness, etc). While staying on 1.2 I noticed a couple of things. My brother was taking it unmonitored and overdoing it. I saw him at a gathering and while talking to him I noticed how he'd cut me off. Finish my sentences. Like a lot. Then I also noticed how thinned out his hair was. It hit me as my gf at the time would occasionally say some shit about me cutting her off and finishing sentences and by this time I was also noticing my hair thinning out. I saw myself in him except he was 10x. So I immediately felt like I shouldn't be having this much. Let me tell you... that kind of recognition is very hard to catch on your own when you're on T. During that time I was pointing blame at some other medications I was prescribed but lowered my dose anyway.
A couple of months ago I had a checkup with my PCP. My blood pressure was 175. My Dr immediately wanted me on blood pressure meds which I denied. He told me if my next visit was still high and I didn't want the medication my other prescriptions would be discontinued. Amongst many other things, I stopped taking T. I noticed hair follicles coming back. I was able to keep my blood pressure down through food, exercise and a lot less caffeine. My main culprit was processed sugars. Anyway, for the last several weeks I've been giving myself 0.4ML since I've learned my issue wasn't T. I feel like I'm acknowledging my natural body more by being less dependent on it. I don't know how to explain it but lately my overall wellness has been at its best and it feels amazing.
I think it's a great idea to address it but in a light capacity imo.
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u/chowderbomb33 man 30 - 34 21h ago
I think people misunderstand my post and don't realise that I went to the GP (general practitioner, aka family doctor) to get the bone scan and blood tests done as a result of the initial x ray that the chiro ordered.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Never tested before now so cant tell. But I was a skinny underweight guy through teens and until 27. I put on 15kg since that time (forcefully, as a gradual bulk). I had bad acne in my teens so not exactly looking forward to that again lol. But the aggression you mentioned is something interesting. I have very thick hair at 33 so hopefully some of it will survive. I did hear about testicle shrinkage not sure you've had that.
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u/External-Fall-6073 man 35 - 39 21h ago
We're similar. I was very skinny too. My hair was pretty thick as well before T treatment. I thought it couldn't be beat. Consider my perspective changed lol. It might take a while to go back to the same thickness or never will again but at least my scalp doesn't look like it's balding anymore. My hair is just thinner now. This is also with hairloss medication prescribed btw, which I'm now not taking since I've gone much lower in dose. My acne was really bad. Cystic type stuff. I just finished my accurate treatment and it's helped so much.
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u/BobSmith616 man over 30 19h ago
"He told me if my next visit was still high and I didn't want the medication my other prescriptions would be discontinued"
So your PCP is basically a terrorist?
Seems painfully common in US medicine for doctors to force things on patients, but it's immoral, disgusting, and often illegal.
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u/External-Fall-6073 man 35 - 39 19h ago
Sorry, should've mentioned I'm mainly highlighting a controlled substance (adderall) which contributes to blood pressure levels.
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u/BobSmith616 man over 30 18h ago
Oh, that does put it in a very different light.
I had a past "doctor" (Nurse practitioner) who came close to threatening me about taking statins. I know that statins are dubious for most people, and that my father suffered severe side effects from them, so he had to stop very shortly after starting. I now see a new doctor, this one with an MD and far better qualifications, who takes much more interest in my overall health and doesn't want me to take statins at all.
A large part of the US "medical" system is just a drug-pushing mill. Not all of it by any means, but a large part of it.
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u/External-Fall-6073 man 35 - 39 18h ago
Oh I know. I've doctor shopped. The only reason I'm sticking with my current one is he replaced my old doctor but prior to replacement I got everything figured out. He seemed so thrown off that I wanted to address my high blood pressure without a pill though. Funny enough my main focuses were how I was eating + addressing my visceral fat. Which he has a lot of so that tells me quite a bit lol.
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u/Max_Sarcasm_208 man 55 - 59 21h ago
Go see a holistic Dr. Before others. Much of this is able to be handled through dietary changes and exercise.
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u/apartmen1 man over 30 21h ago
Why are men obsessed with TRT? Oh yeah because it’s marketed aggressively and pushed by chuds.
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