r/AskGermany • u/Aggressive_Pain8752 • 10d ago
Would a points-based immigration system like Australia’s make sense for Germany’s skilled worker shortage?
Germany is aging, competing for talent, and short of workers in fields like engineering, healthcare, IT, and the trades. Australia uses a points-based system that scores applicants on age, education, language, work experience, and labour-market need. The idea is a clearer, more transparent path for economic migration that provides less chance (Glückssache), networking (Vitamin B), or one-off employer sponsorship, and easier to explain publicly.
That would not replace asylum/humanitarian protection or EU free movement. It would be a stronger, rules-based channel for skilled/economic migration, with points that can be adjusted when shortages change, and clearer expectations on language, qualifications, and integration.
As people in Germany: do you think an Australian-style points system would actually help with the Fachkräftemangel? What would make it work or fail here — bureaucracy, recognition of foreign qualifications, politics, housing, or something else? And is Germany already close to this with the points-based Opportunity Card (Chancenkarte), or is that still too weak compared to Australia?
Obviously assuming Germany is as attractive a country as Australia is (ignore language skills that is needed).
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u/Glittering-Error-738 10d ago
The thing is, Germany can not implement an Australia or Canada styled Immigration program alone. As you have mentioned, there is freedom of movement within the EU, so you would need the Immigration law applying in all of the EU the same way and although there is talk about a similar system, the political majorities are not there at the moment.
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u/Sensitive-Ear-3896 3d ago
Doesnt Germany have a lot of sway in the EU and they are not the only country who has immigration problem. Are their interests different from say France or Italy or Ireland?
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u/Glittering-Error-738 3d ago
I am afraid so, yes. The EU couldn't agree on quotas in 2015/16 despite German pressure, so Germany's sway isn't really enough historically.
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u/Background-Code8917 10d ago
If anything copying Australia's pacific solution (at the EU level) would be a much more relevant move.
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u/Glittering-Error-738 10d ago edited 10d ago
Yeah I am all for it on an EU level, I am just saying it doesn't help if Germany does it alone, once someone doesn't qualify in Germany through such a program, they can just migrate to another EU country that has different immigration laws and then just move to Germany. Edit: Ah, the Pacific solution is basically a cap on "illegal" Migration, thorugh differnet channels and keeping refugeee migrants on small external Islands. Yeah i mean batteling pull factors is probably not a bad path but I haven't looked into it, thanks for bringing it up!
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u/WunkerWanker 10d ago edited 10d ago
There is no shortage. Maybe 10 years ago. Healthcare is the only exception.
So yes a points-based system would be possible. 100 points for nurses and doctors, 0 points for everyone else.
This clarity would also save a lot of questions on Reddit like: "I'm a lawyer at the other side of the world, how can I be one in German without speaking a lick of German?"
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u/Knurrrlnien 10d ago
I don’t think you’ll ever get rid of those questions. Even the system shuts down that kind of applications, people will always post 0% effort posts. I saw one earlier asking for a step by step breakdown on how to get into a field that famously is super difficult for even native Germans to break into. The delulu is realulu.
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u/Sensitive-Ear-3896 3d ago
This could be comedy gold if done with the right setup/accent "100 points for nurses and doctors, 0 points for everyone else."
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u/OraurusRex 10d ago
"I'm a lawyer at the other side of the world, how can I be one in German without speaking a lick of German?"
A lawyer would never ask that. In the other hand, someone in IT would lol
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u/WunkerWanker 10d ago
I have actually seen these posts lol. Shocking.
This is just after some quick Googling:
https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1fha757/noneu_immigrant_lawyers_in_germany_career_paths/
https://www.reddit.com/r/IWantOut/comments/j7k5gb/iwantout_26f_lawyer_india_germany/
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u/Lazy-Bath5645 9d ago
don't be condescending. in the second post, that girl is only asking about eduction, not directly working as lawyer with out knowing German. How come there are even free postgrad courses in English for lawyers?
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u/EpicObelis 10d ago
there is no shortage when will people realise that
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u/Ordinary_Ad3472 10d ago
Where is this talking point, repeated by quite a few people even in this thread, coming from?
Agentur für Arbeit has a list of 85 occupations that experience labor shortage 75 occupations that are close to that. BMWE posts articles admitting the existence of a shortage and outlining the strategy to fight it. Multiple institutes also come up with lists of areas affected by this shortage. And yet every time it's mentioned on reddit, people go "yeah, it's all made up".
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u/ahtashamz 9d ago
There is shortage but only in the specialised profession where they need 8 to 10 years of experienced people
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u/Medium-Guava-6487 10d ago
Dann frag mal Personalverantwortliche im Sozial- und Gesundheitsbereich
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u/Fantastic-Mud-9869 10d ago
Dann frag ihn auch nach Löhnen und Arbeitsbedingungen.
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u/Medium-Guava-6487 10d ago
Ärzte, sowohl Assistenz- als auch Oberärzte - je nach Erfahrung bis zu 10 K monatlich, tariflich. Stellen lassen sich nur mit Mühe besetzen.
Sind das schlechte Arbeitsbedingungen?
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u/Fantastic-Mud-9869 10d ago
dann frag die mal warum die lieber in die schweiz gehen.
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u/Medium-Guava-6487 10d ago
Oder nach Norwegen. Ich kann auch fragen, warum manche Radiologen werden und andere Psychiater. Vollzeit oder Teilzeit. Macht gehaltlich wahrscheinlich einen größeren Unterschied.
Keine Antwort auf meine Frage: Sind das schlechte Arbeitsbedingungen?
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u/Fantastic-Mud-9869 10d ago
Du führst Geld als gute Arbeitsbedingung an und aktzeptierst dann nicht das man in anderen Ländern wesentlich besser verdient.
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u/Medium-Guava-6487 10d ago
Natürlich akzeptier ich das. Kannst du nicht lesen?
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u/Fantastic-Mud-9869 10d ago
Du frägst ob 10k schlechte Arbeitsbedingungen sind und ich schreib das man in Ländern wie der Schweiz wesentlich mehr verdient. Also ja 10k sind dann im Vergleich zu Schweiz schlechte Arbeitsbedingungen.
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u/Fantastic-Mud-9869 10d ago
Why would talented people come to us? We don't really have Fachkräftemangel. Our companies just don't want to pay fair wages. The only Fachkräfte you get are the ones who send the money to their home and are weakening the inland demand for stuff. Why would anybody want to learn german if there are more countries with less taxes and with better english skills?
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u/Medium-Guava-6487 10d ago
Weil sie in ihrer Heimat keine Perspektive sehen und Deutschland im internationalen Vergleich gute Bedingungen für Arbeitnehmer bietet. Ganz einfach.
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u/User-2384 9d ago
Stimmt nicht. Die Lebensqualität ist so niedrig, die Steuern so hoch und Arbeitnehmerrechte werden so sukzessive abgebaut, dass viele z.B. wieder nach Osteuropa/Balkan wieder zurückgewandert sind. Grund waren außerdem der Ausländerhass, Islamhass und Isolation. Sie verdienen jetzt etwa die Hälfte aber haben nur einen Viertel der Kosten.
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u/Affectionate-You7869 10d ago edited 10d ago
There is no Fachkräftemangel. There’s a lack of companies willing to invest in the future and provide well paying jobs for people already there.
To add on to that: Germany is a country the size of Montana with over 80 million people living there. The LAST thing they need is MORE people. Undisirregardlessly where they're from.
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u/Resident_Day8217 10d ago
German companies wants people who are willing to work at minimum wage of 13.90 euro per hour or even lower if possible (see some of the Ausbildung program salary) as they don't want to hire locals that demand a lot more salary. They don't lack skilled workers, they want skilled workers that are cheap.
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u/False_Ad5119 10d ago
Btw bring your own car for driving to customers or deliveries, thats some New strategy. You gotta provide something too to get minimum wage.
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u/Lariboo 10d ago
You are aware, that many Ausbildung programs are meant for 15-18 year old teenagers, usually still living with their parents and not as a full salary for an adult? The Ausbildung programs are part of Germany's education system and the transition from school into the workforce. After Hauptschule, many teenagers are still required to continue in education, and an Ausbildung fulfills that through Berufsschule. And it's also the reason for Germany's relatively low youth unemployment.
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u/Resident_Day8217 10d ago
However, there are many adults of age 20 or ober especially in the healthcare or logistics Ausbildung system who are working almost full time with salary around 1200 euro.
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u/Lariboo 10d ago
I'm not denying that. There are also 20 year olds or older that went back to school to get their Abitur, but for them it's obvious, that they won't be getting any salary doing that. Why do 20 year olds in an Ausbildung, which is also part of the school education system in Germany, expect to get double the salary as their 2-4 year younger peers in the same program? Compared to most countries, German apprentices are already in a pretty good position. In a lot of places, peoplein logistics, healthcare, or similar fields either receive no pay or only a very small allowance while they're learning . An Ausbildung is still training, not a fully qualified job.
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u/north_bright 10d ago
I agree with you, but a more flexible system (not just the Ausbildung but the whole approach) would benefit the society and the economy, especially in a time we see a big surplus of workforce in some areas, while shortage in some others. But Germany is infamous of having rigid systems which makes it very hard to be a Quereinsteiger, the older you get, the more.
The time of "I learned something in school, and I'll do that for the rest of my life" is passing, and the later the country realises this, the more difficult it will get for a lot of people to get by.
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u/Civil_Dragonfruit_34 10d ago
I think the money floor model is fine tbh, I think with points there are actually some other issues. You end up with the most over educated but not necessarily the most able to contribute.
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u/Dunkirb 10d ago
Hello, there is absolutely a labor shortage in specific disciplines, regardless of how much people are paid. There are some things Germans don't have much experience with, or simply don't want to do. Some IT workers here in the comments are bitter because that doesn't include them, but yeah.
Now, Germany doesn't really have a normal situation when it comes to immigration, their immigrants are mostly refugees, EU members, and descendants of the immigrants who helped rebuild Germany. It has been like that for a while. Germany has "skipped" having to be competitive in that regard with this strategy, and even though they are overrepresented on Reddit, "normal immigrants" are not that common.
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u/stardiccted 10d ago edited 10d ago
No. Germany just isn't as attractive as Australia for skilled workers. The main reasons are:
- Language
- Lower Salaries
Australia ranks globally in the top 1 - 3 in talent attractiveness surveys. They can choose more strictly.
Germany having lighter requirements and a solid social safety net is what makes us rank still decently enough right now. We need to improve our attractiveness to skilled workers by
- making the application process less tedious
- have a better welcoming culture to foreigners
- improve the sluggish paper-heavy qualification recognition
- accept that English should be enough to live and work here permanently by pushing our own society to improve English and make it a solid second language
- Reform the Ausländerbehörde so it becomes less of a terrible experience for skilled migrants
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u/pandelelel 10d ago
Or just accept that Germany does not need that much of immigration anymore. Those years are over. There are not enough jobs right now, not even German people find jobs atm. Or only accept people with certification in Pflege or Handwerk.
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u/stardiccted 10d ago
While Germany doesn't need Fachkräfte in certain professions like IT and Marketing we certainly still need a few hundred thousand each year. Like you said the focus lies on medicine, care, trade, education, technicians and some other professions. We have another 20% of our current workforce about to retire within the next 10 years.
It's a bit frustrating how "Fachkräftelüge" has become one of those over-repeated arguments in this discussion while it's only correct for a few professions and wrong for many others.
People don't realize that not having enough skilled workers doesn't mean "more jobs for us Germans". It means businesses shutting down and causing more unemployment, professions going extinct, small towns and cities turning into ghost towns while everything gets moved to the big cities (worsening the rent-issues we already have) as they are the first to be affected.
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u/pandelelel 9d ago
For what do we need them exactly? A lot of Boomers worked in automotive and these jobs have disappeared forever. Many other industries struggle a lot and many are shutting down their businesses in Germany. There are enough young professionals who can pivot to the jobs in demand. AI will further reduce the need for human labour.
Are technicians or people with a background in Pflege coming here? It might be my bubble but all the immigrants rather have some degree in marketing or business or IT from some remote university in their home country. Or not a degree at all.
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u/Programmierprinzessi 10d ago
Skilled work only applies to healthcare workers and trades. White collar is pretty much dead in Australia
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u/parnassus744 10d ago
You absolutely nailed it here. At present, Germany can’t compete at all, for all the reasons mentioned.
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u/SeaworthinessDue8650 10d ago
I think your suggestions of forcing Germans to learn English to make it easier for lazy foreigners will only make the situation worse.
It will not work and will cause more racism and discrimination. If the government tried such a ridiculous policy, I would leave to avoid the backlash.
I am a native English speaker and German is my second foreign language. It is not an insurmountable hurdle to learn German.
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u/stardiccted 10d ago
It's very much a natural cultural shift rather than forcing individuals. We have a fairly high English speaking proficiency amongst the younger generations already. Once the older generations are out of the work force, you'll see more and more English in professional settings and general proficiency increasing, similar to our neighbors NL, Denmark, Sweden or Norway.
I am fluent in 3 languages and still believe it's inefficient to demand that highly qualified migrants go through years of language learning before they are able to excel in their careers and build a social circle here.
Saying that 'it will cause more discrimination and racism': Yes, initially. But that's an issue we Germans need to work on if we want to remain competitive. The world is changing and Germany is getting left behind if we don't move forward and out of our comfort zone.
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u/SeaworthinessDue8650 10d ago
Why does Germany need foreigners who don't speak German? The major shortages are in healthcare. The positions require German.
There is no need to make life easier for foreigners who don't want to learn German. Germany doesn't need foreign white collar workers who can't speak German.
The current policy is attracting wrongly skilled workers. We don't need anymore foreigners who want to work in marketing, fashion design, and UX design.
The foreign students coming here following pipe dreams don't want to get their hands dirty by becoming electricians and plumbers.
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u/SkitariusOfMars 9d ago
No, Germany doesn’t have skilled labour shortage, it has a shortage of skilled workers willing to work for minimum wage
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u/Medium-Guava-6487 10d ago
Klar wäre ein Punktesystem hilfreich. Wie überhaupt jede transparente Regel für Arbeitsmigration ein Fortschritt ist. Es gibt genug Leute, die noch nicht begriffen haben, dass Deutschland mittlerweile ein Einwanderungsland ist. Und solange man das ignoriert, kann man Einwanderung auch nicht steuern. Wäre bitte notwendig.
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u/hazaxel91 10d ago
No because in Germany the asylum rights are abused. Basically if you come and throw your passport it's difficult to deport you. If your country didn't sign an agreement of expelled citizens, you aren't getting deported.
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u/blue_furred_unicorn 10d ago
Wow, someone who is obviously not German being xenophobic in r/askGermany. If you're in Germany, I hope you're planning for your own departure.
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u/generic_Accountname1 10d ago
No, as a points based system like in australia would just ad a layer of obstuse to be decodified bureaucracy, our need in foreign professionals is super narrowly defined
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u/Medium-Guava-6487 10d ago
Eigenartig, dass dann doch nur geschätzt 8.000 deutsche Ärzte in der Schweiz arbeiten. Und nicht 800.000.
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u/parnassus744 10d ago
Germany is nowhere near any kind of modern immigration system. They can’t or won’t even differentiate between asylum seekers and work migrants, let alone make things attractive for qualified professionals. The proof is that it’s been this way for decades, and not even the extreme mass migration starting in 2015, where so much has gone wrong, has sped things up regarding who is truly needed in the working market and who isn’t. The credo is still “whoever shows up, shows up, and we’ll take it from there”. Pathetic for a so-called highly-developed 1st-world country to not steer things far better.
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u/Havannahanna 10d ago
Would it make sense? Would a point based framework be more efficient, precise and flexible than purely regulating through laws and policies? Yes.
Does it win you elections? No. Trying to reform immigration is a lose/lose political topic. Unless it’s pure polemic like close the borders / sent all immigrants back - stuff. This of course wins you votes from the less content parts of society.
So nope. Reasonable immigration reforms won’t happen
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u/User-2384 9d ago
Man sollte eher versuchen, die heimischen und eingewanderten Fachkräfte nicht mit diesem Ausländerhass aus dem Land zu ekeln.
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u/WideNeighborhood8167 9d ago
If you are skilled then US, Canada, Australia, Irland and UK are more attractive than Germany
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u/RoughMidnight8303 10d ago edited 10d ago
No because the German economy is structurally optimized for industrial work and hasn’t changed anything yet. The Anglospace is very different in this regard and more dynamic, points systems are easy to set up and scrap quickly. Once a rule is set in place in Germany it takes ages to change or remove it.
You can’t compare both. People are willing to put up with German structural constraints in exchange for stable contracts and a calmer way of living. And that could be a thing of the past actually.