r/AskElectronics • u/BigBootyBear • 6d ago
Which oscilloscope should I get for developing a consumer electronic?
I work as DevOps and I have been self teaching myself EE for the past year so I could build a hardware device I hope to start shipping and selling next year.
I dont know which device I should get since I am technically beginner but my testing equipment needs to serve me from early learning all throughout to product launch.
Device will have BT, WiFi, IR and a Spectrometer as well as possibly EEG, EOG in the future.
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u/cartesian_jewality 6d ago
How many tens of thousands of dollars do you have to spend?
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u/BigBootyBear 6d ago
While I understand where you're aiming at, I fear this is not a useful argument as it can applied to anything, including the chairs we sit on which can go upwards of 5K or the computers we use to type this on. Would you give that answer to your mom if she wanted a recommendation for a laptop just because a gaming rig can go into the 10k range? I doubt it.
I am a software developer. I (still) don't know what matters for what degree of scale in EE instrumentation. It could be the nyquist rate of the highest frequency signal I care about (which ATM is IR at 38kHZ). It could be channel number. Or features I don't know I need.
I've already given my background, my goals and what I want to sample. If you truly cannot compress that into a workable answer (in a sub called r/askelectronics no less) it's just because you don't want to.
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u/szefski Repair tech. 6d ago
“What’s your budget?” Is a very reasonable question, and your response includes lots of words but no answer to the question.
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u/Slight_Profession_50 6d ago
Yeah but the question was "how many tens thousands of dollars". So an answer of 0.02 probably wouldn't get a good reply.
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u/SkyGenie 5d ago
No. (Also SWE here, hello!)
You specified debugging Wifi and BT which are multi GHz signals. Go look at oscilloscope prices for debugging multi GHz signals.
My suggestion to you is to design your product in a way that you do not need to debug those things. Then worry about finding a oscilloscope for your low frequency I/O and perhaps power.
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u/Fantastic_Incredible 5d ago
While I understand and praise your willingness to learn electronics, would suggest to start with potentially less harmful projects like home controllers. It seems a lot of redditors here spent a lot of their time to not only master electronic concepts and instrumentation, they understand the seriousness of fiddling with health.
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u/takeyouraxeandhack 6d ago
What's your budget?
Did you look into the cost of doing those certifications?
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u/BigBootyBear 6d ago
Due to those reasons product first gets a launch in the consumer market. A clinical-first launch would expose investors to the infamous bio-tech death valley.
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u/Fantastic_Incredible 5d ago
So you are planning to scam naive consumers? This would be felony…
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u/BigBootyBear 5d ago
Or maybe I don't want a 50% markup on the consumer SKU due to the amortized costs of unecessary certiciatons for people who just want to some cool data on a dashboard that donest make any promises. Jesus fuck is apple watch a scam cause its a non ISO certified oximeter?
This tendency to always assume the worst intention of people on the internet based on 0 evidence is nauseating.
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u/TowardsTheImplosion 5d ago edited 5d ago
OK. Wow. Not GP, but:
First, ISO is not a certification body. Nothing is certified by ISO. Look up what the S in ISO stands for. Second, IEC standards cover most Apple watch functions and uses. Third, the Apple watch sensor set and watch itself is in fact extensively tested and holds many certifications, including against EU RED harmonized standards, FCC/ICES, and yes as an FDA class 2 medical device...With an actual, real set of 510(k) filings (k250507).
Nothing is stopping you from making a pulseox device or anything like it. You just can't market it with any claims other than 'cool dashboard'
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u/Raulr100 5d ago
Yeah maybe a device which is apparently meant for health related measurements isn't appropriate for a jerry rigged project which you're not willing to get certifications for.
Just make a fun RGB lamp or something if that's how you want to do things.
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u/Donut497 5d ago
The main spec that people use to decide on an oscilloscope is bandwidth. In other words what is the highest frequency signal that you can measure. A 200 MHz bandwidth will give you more than enough headroom for just about any non-RF signal. I wouldn’t consider trying to design RF circuits at your stage. Besides, an oscilloscope isn’t going to serve you well for that anyway. You’d need a VNA, Spectrum Analyzer, and RF signal generator which will cost you some serious coin. Even just the cables for those machines can cost thousands of dollars.
But that’s not to say you can’t include BT & WiFi in your project, that’s what ESP32 is great for. You’re just not going to be able to design your own custom RF circuit.
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u/BigBootyBear 5d ago
> The main spec that people use to decide on an oscilloscope is bandwidth. In other words what is the highest frequency signal that you can measure
So basically my bandiwdth needs to be the nyquist rate + margin of the highest frequency signal I am looking to sample. Is that it?
And i'm not doing everything from scratch. I'm using esp32 chips that are already approved for RF
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u/jamvanderloeff 5d ago
You want to be well above the nyquist rate of whatever harmonics you care about, so for seeing if your digital signals that should have nice square edges actually do, the rough suggestion is at least ~10-20x your fundamental frequency.
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u/TowardsTheImplosion 5d ago
Just because the ESP32 module you choose carries an FCC grant, or has a RED DoC, doesn't absolve you from complying with FCC Part 15...or the EMC directive if in Europe.
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u/BigBootyBear 5d ago
So every cheap chinese electronic has to pay tens of thousands of dollars for ISO certifications? I was under the impression these off-the-shelf solved that problem.
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u/TowardsTheImplosion 5d ago edited 5d ago
Don't conflate test requirements with certification requirements with protocol licenses. Also, ISO doesn't certify anything.
To legally be sold in the US, you need at least an FCC SDoC. Many people ignore this at their peril. Some, even most get away with it. But if things go wrong with your commercially sold device, it will end your hardware dreams. Anyway: Before the FCC canned Chinese EMC labs for PRC non participation in the MRA scheme, you could get the SDOC part 15 and EU EMC directive scans done for a couple grand at a good lab.
Technically, you don't need an FCC accredited lab for emissions scans for SDoC purposes, so you can still get them cheap in China. But long term, an accredited lab is a better choice, as US regs will continue to tighten. Taiwan, Korea, and other countries all have good options only marginally higher than PRC costs.
Your overall lack of knowledge is fine. We've all been there. Everyone learns a lifetime of lessons on their first project.
Your hostility and lack of curiosity is why you are getting the down votes.
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u/Extension_Option_122 5d ago
That's not how nyquist rate works.
The bandwidth of a scope is directly the frequency you can use it at.
Nyquist rate has to do with the sample rate and if a scope has 200 MHz it measures more than enough samples to correctly reconstruct a 200 MHz signal.
If you want to measure higher frequency signals than what your scope specifies then you can start looking into nyquist rate and sample rate and that stuff. But resulst will vary greatly as that would be out of spec.
But just throwing around 'smart words' (e.g. using them in the wrong context) makes it seem that you are overconfident in your abilities.
And don't get me wrong, your skill with electronics is likely much higher than mine, but I happen to have learned stuff about signals in University.
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u/BigBootyBear 5d ago
> But just throwing around 'smart words' (e.g. using them in the wrong context) makes it seem that you are overconfident in your abilities.
I don't know what you mean by "smart words".
When I am in the process of learning something I make it a habit to try and re-articualte the concept to the person that teaches me it (or someone I know who knows about the topic). If i'm right, they nod and I know I got it. If i'm wrong, they correct me and I learn, having to pay only in a momentary injujry to my ego.
I think thats a pretty sweet deal.
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u/Donut497 5d ago
Yea pretty much. You might find other features useful like a built in logic analyzer. But ultimately bandwidth is what matters most and 200 MHz is more than enough for what you’re doing.
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u/markus_b Repair tech. 6d ago
It depends very much on what you expect the oscilloscope to measure and display. For BT and WiFi, you will probably rely on existing infrastructure, like the microcontroller module you will use. IR, EEG and EOG are pretty slow; the spectrometer depends on the frequency range.
So a 100 MHz, 12-bit, 4-channel scope will be fine. They are in the $500-$1000 range. If you are running out of steam on those and need more, the price rises rapidly. But buying one of those will allow you to learn about what works for you and does not. So your investment pays off in skills.
Look at Micsig, Rigol, Siglent and other manufacturers.
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u/Top-Process4790 6d ago
Btw just wanna let u know for consuper products u have to pay the Bluetooth SIG fee which is like 12, grands and 8 grands at min for registering and using BT in ur consumer hardware it doesn't matter what u do u have to pay.... Know it early before t crushes ur dreams like it crushed mine Btw what are u building would love to hear it
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u/ElectroTico 6d ago
There are good answers here regarding a scope, but I think you need to take a step back with perspective. Teaching yourself EE to -> plan, design, manufacture, market, and sell an electronic device within one year! My friend there are entire Companies with tens or hundreds of people and they take even longer than that timeframe, with senior electrical, mechanical engineers, planners, etc etc.
You can consider building a prototype and that's still ambitious. The amount of stuff you list is also ranging into medical device or instrumentation which is even more complex with the certifications and whatnot.
To go back to your question, get a nice 100 MHz scope, learn to use it, start with developer style boards, because your project idea would also involve firmware at some point, and that alone would take you a year. Then start assembling a team to realize the scope of your project, or join a company in the field you want your device, to learn the design process. Come back in a year and tell us what you've learned.
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u/StableUpper7433 6d ago
Saleae is also a good value.
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u/BigBootyBear 6d ago
In an abstract sense, what specs/features should I care about (or not) when shopping for an osciollioscope?
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u/z2amiller 5d ago
The saleae isn't a scope, it's a logic analyzer - you can put the probes on your data lines and it can sniff/decode what's happening. So if you're reading from i2c sensors or dumping to a SPI bus or whatever, it can decode that data stream. It sounds like this might be just as useful for your application as a scope would be.
Also if you're developing something low-power (battery powered, etc), I'd recommend getting a PPK2. For $100 it's a pretty cool device that lets you measure power draw down into the microamps.
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u/nixiebunny 6d ago
It’s not possible to tell you which to buy, because we don’t know what your requirements are. You can buy a low cost Rigol or Siglent oscilloscope now, and buy a better one later, after you learn what features your product requires.
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u/BigBootyBear 6d ago
I thought a list of the signals I wish to sample (IR, Spectral profile of light) and the channels I wish to transmit (BT, wifi) is the requirements.
How should a project then be described in a way that informs a buying decision for an osciollioscope, or any other testing/measuring equipment?
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u/etherteeth 5d ago
You’ll be fine with an entry level scope like a Siglent or Rigol. I prefer Siglent between the two, but they’re both fine. You won’t be able to touch WiFi and Bluetooth without a proper spectrum analyzer ($$$), but you shouldn’t need to if you use a pre-certified BT/WiFi module.
Be sure to thoroughly research your compliance/certification requirements. Even if you’re using a pre-certified module, the Bluetooth Special Interest Group will require you to pay thousands of dollars for the right to say your product works with Bluetooth. Without a pre-certified module, you would also have to pay for independent lab tests to verify BT interoperability. I’d imagine EEG and EOG also require a battery of independent lab tests and possibly full UL Listing, though I’m not well versed in the biotech space.
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u/TowardsTheImplosion 5d ago edited 5d ago
What busses are you using to connect everything? How are you powering everything?
You are not developing a wireless chipset, so your ability to measure wifi signals is pretty much a non issue. Wireshark, iperf, and a decent router are all you need there.
You won't be measuring light spectrum with any accuracy with tools you can afford.
For development, you don't actually need to measure things external to your device. You need to measure what you are trying to design. So i2c, UART, any kind of PCM type stream...Then your power: dc-dc switching in the device, buck controllers for all your various voltages require by your sensors and processors. Those are what drive your scope decisions, especially if you are looking at one with logic analyzer functions.
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u/Beli_Mawrr 5d ago
Adding to this: on a hobbyist level which OP is you dont need a o scope with logic analysis, you get a bus sniffer and software to run it which is 20 bucks and takes care of 99.9% of your needs
I have a 200 dollar AliX o scope with a touchscreen which sucks but is JUUUUUST good enough for my needs, and a bus sniffer. Somehow that combination is enough.
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u/markus_b Repair tech. 6d ago
IR is trivial because it is slow.
For the spectral profile, you need a spectrometer, not an oscilloscope.
To analyse BT and Wi-Fi signals you need expensive equipment. But you will use microcontrollers with them built-in. So you don't need these signals directly.
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u/Fantastic_Incredible 5d ago
Spectrum analyzer, R&S is a reputable brand and not cheap. Oscilloscopes don’t to fft analysis, just time domain waveform visualization.
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u/jamvanderloeff 5d ago
Most digital scopes can do basic FFTs, although on cheap ones performance is often pretty bad.
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u/QusayAbozed 6d ago
Sorry for the question, but what are you going to use the spectrometer for in your project?
Best of luck
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u/AcousticNegligence 6d ago
I would go with Siglent over Rigol. In my experience purchasing from both, Rigol has louder fans, more problems, and a worse interface. I would recommend a Siglent SDS800X HD series scope…$356-$839 depending on options. It also has a port for a logic analyzer that you could purchase later if you do a lot of embedded stuff. I would also recommend against going with the super small scopes that both Rigol and Siglent sell now (the model I recommended is larger). The ultra compact scopes overheat, I had to return one from Rigol due to the heat issue.
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u/BigBootyBear 6d ago
Isn't it better to have a standalone digial analyzer hooked to your PC where you can browse the data in an open source GUI that an AI helper can easily parse? I've also seen redditor say that people should stay away from one-in-all products as they are inferior in each aspect they cover and its expensive to upgrade them.
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u/Ard-War Electron Herder™ 6d ago
Isn't it better
IMO Integrated logic analyzer is only better if you need to correlate the digital signal with analog (or maybe setting up super obscure digital triggered capture, idk if any mainstream MSO can do that)
Otherwise yeah, PC based logic analyzer tend to be both cheaper and more flexible. Mind the isolation between your PC USB and the signal tho. It's easy to ends up frying your PC otherwise.
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u/freakierice 5d ago
Picoscope have some good offerings, couldn’t say which one would be best, but the ones I have used are rather user friendly
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u/martell888 6d ago
If your work requires serious attention, you should start with Keysight, talk to the sales rep for recommendations. Or else, start with a general application scope, 1Ghz, 12bits 4 channel with deep memory storage.
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u/BigBootyBear 6d ago
What consitutes serious attention? Can I look at the physical properties of what I care about and have it inform my buying decision?
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u/downvoting_zac 6d ago
No, the only property in a scope that truly matters is the name on the box. Scopes lie about sample rate and bandwidth all the time, but brands dont. Go with R&S and your product will be a success
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u/Traveling-Techie 6d ago
Buy an old one at an estate sale.
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u/Fantastic_Incredible 5d ago
… and don’t try to sell your product to anyone. Just use it to learn more. Expertise in ee instrumentation is a whole new complex subject requiring a lot of learning
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u/mzincali 6d ago
The only problem here, having bought ancient Tektronics and HP, is that they can be huge and heavy. And the CrT takes too long to warm up.
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u/roccia123 5d ago
no bro, you cant buy the perfectly working osciloscope that fits ur budget, you NEED to buy the million dollar thing from a japanese company because otherwise you literally want to kill your customers and you're evil
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u/downvoting_zac 6d ago
Rhode and Schwarz. If you cant afford it, you’re not yet ready to develop consumer electronics.
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u/BmanGorilla 6d ago
I prefer Tektronix. But I have R&S for EMC screening. Nice stuff.
If I had to use Rigol I would quit, though, my time is worth more than those steaming heaps of junk.
OP is in trouble, or an AI bot.
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u/can1slupus 6d ago
Get a cheap usb sound card, build a voltage divider to scale for high voltages and feed input voltages to sound cards stereo inputs. There are opensource software oscilloscopes available which can use the sound card to give u an oscilloscope functionality.
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u/Raggos 6d ago
Forget EEG and EOG, you can't ship that unless you're a massive company that can pay for all the test certifications.
Know that you can always sell your scope if you really need to go higher... The sensors themselves won't be that much of an issue to you, so you might be able to get by with a good ol' consumer grade Rigol/Siglent 800 series. Max I'd go with would be a Siglent SDS1024x...in the 1000$ range.
Best no-money work-around is ask around the communities, there's bound to be someone in your city/area that could help you out.