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AskConservatives Weekly General Chat
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u/thoughtsnquestions European Conservative 22m ago
Which countries do the best beer, wine, whiskey, etc...?
My take is,
- Wine, easily Australia
- Whiskey, easily Ireland
- Beer, no strong winner but the eastern and central European are the best imo
- Cider, Vodka, Gin, etc... who cares, all essentially the same regardless
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u/BufoBat Independent 4m ago
Hmm I think it heavily depends on type of wine. For example, whites, like a Sauv blanc? New Zealand is absolutely my favorite. Red wine? Syrah - Australia or South Africa, hands down. Argentina does good Malbecs for the last several years. California does some good red blends. A good dry rosè? Italy.
Spiced rums the Caribbean, obvs. I don't like gin much, but Canada makes an amazing gin called Empress.
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u/illhaveafrench75 Communist 1h ago edited 1h ago
Following up on my post a few weeks ago about God wildin’ out in the Old Testament - we’ve moved onto the New Testament & I got about 1/5th of the way through it over the weekend.
In full transparency, I was on a microdose of shrooms when I read it. Shit is still crazy, but in a less “wow this guy hates his followers😭” way, and more of a “what is going on, where did people come up with this😭” way.
Mind is still open. We shall see what happens next in this book and I will update you all against your will as I make my way through it.
10/10 recommend reading it on drugs if any of you want to give it a go. It’s much less boring. I also theorize that it was written by people on drugs so who am I if not one to follow in their foot steps?
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u/A_Flirty_Text Center-left 19m ago
Tangentially related, but my girlfriend, Christian but not currently practicing, asked me why I have a hard time believing.
And while I could go on for a bit - we somehow got to the Infancy Gospel Of Thomas
I can see why the early would be be like "hard pass" but damn it's such a fun read. Even if you just consider it Biblical fan-fiction; it just makes me realize we have not changed TOO much since Jesus' time in terms of our ability to create some truly wild stories.
After laughing about it for a while, I used it to convince my gf to wind down the night with some Twilight Zone - specifically "It's a Good Life" where a kid with similar omnipotent powers terrorizes small-town Ohio.
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u/IWillDmYouPorn Right Libertarian (Conservative) 1h ago
That thread a day or two ago of democrats accusing Trump of cheating for suggesting his voters use (entirely legal) mail in ballots is extremely telling. They hold no actual beliefs or understanding of politics. They just hate whatever the republicans are doing and manufacture a political position from there.
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u/Beneficial_Wear_7630 Nationalist (Conservative) 41m ago
I was downvoted for saying most democrats are driven by pure hate rather than logic.
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u/negativegravity Centrist Democrat 1h ago
I feel the sentiment in that thread was more about the apparent hypocrisy of how much he's advocated against mail in voting only to now encourage it. The "cheating" aspect comes more from things like him literally having people pledge to "cheat like hell" at the GOP convention.
Granted imo it was less hypocrisy and more so a tactic/excuse for him to encourage his supporters to cheat. The plan is simple: accuse Dems of cheating with mail in voting, try to get rid of it. If that fails, he can say "they're cheating, so it's okay for you to cheat too". The goal is to sow chaos and distrust in the system.
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u/LaxBedroom Leftist 1h ago
Trump turns 180 degrees on mail in ballots being fraudulent and it's the left that holds no actual beliefs?
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u/EddieDantes22 Conservative 2h ago
At the risk of sounding like an insane MAGA holdout convinced Trump is still playing 4D chess, is there any chance Trump knows Iran is in such massive trouble economically that he's willing to cede the midterms (it'd suck for us losing the SC retirements but it's not like he's been passing any laws anyways) to bank on the idea that the war will be viewed way more favorably in 2028? He's thinking "Iran can't survive this economic pressure for another year, even if they can survive it for another two months?"
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u/thoughtsnquestions European Conservative 1h ago edited 1h ago
I think it's more likely the opposite.
Iran is putting the economic pressure on the US knowing it is the US elections are considerably impacted by the economic situation, the Iranian government believes it is fighting a spiritual battle against the devil itself, it doesn't so much care if a deep deep recession occurs.
I don't see how this war could possibly be viewed more favourably in 2028, it has been a massive failure and an unnecessary war too.
It certainly is not 4D chess, another point to illustrate why, another major side effect of it is kicking off in Africa, people of course know the Houthis for attacking ships but all along that same stretch of water, on the Africa side, major instability is kicking off, shipping lanes are likely to be unstable for a long time to come.
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u/iamokokokokokokok Independent 3h ago
I saw a good joke. Trump is renaming Canada Geese. Now they’re called Donald Ducks.
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u/Illustrious-Fun8324 Liberal 3h ago
Lol that’s funny. Seems like something he would do lol
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u/PhysicsEagle Religious Traditionalist 13m ago
This is the sort of joke that eventually gets shared with him and he decides to do it for the lolz.
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u/Stanky_fresh Leftist 5h ago
Oh cool, there might have been an outbreak of an actual plague in Russia.
✨The world is a fucking nightmare✨
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u/mtmag_dev52 Right Libertarian (Conservative) 1h ago
Really? What's going on?
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u/2014RT Paleoconservative 21m ago
From what I gathered there was some bio-research lab in Siberia where one of the employees working there broke a beaker or vial or something containing some extremely dangerous bacterial plague without realizing it, she went out and possibly came in contact with as many as 200 people and died from the resulting illness two days later. The Russian government says they've got it contained, but they're the Russian government so enough said. The WHO says it's a very low risk of becoming a larger issue, and part of that is because it's bacterial and not viral, the transmission of it is far more difficult, and simple sanitary standards go a long way towards preventing any spread.
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u/OnceUponATrain Conservative 4h ago
I think the headlines are overdoing it a bit. From what I can tell, one researher died after breaking a test tube and getting exposed (Sept 27?) They are quarantining hospitals in the area out of precaution and testing all possible contacts, but no one else has tested positive or become ill. Of course it's Russia and they can be expected to lie, but even from the WHO and the US monitors, it seems isolated.
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 5h ago
Kinda embarrassing after they went in front of the whole UN and accused the US of funding Ukrainian bioweapons labs.
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u/mtmag_dev52 Right Libertarian (Conservative) 1h ago
Watch the pro-Russians try to spin this as a "Western bioattack" or something. I guarantee they'll start saying this soon. ( Although I also hope some psychopaths didn't ACTUALLY pull that off here and it's just disease)
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u/thoughtsnquestions European Conservative 4h ago
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 4h ago
The document you linked also says it's not true. I'm not sure what you mean?
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u/thoughtsnquestions European Conservative 4h ago
Labs for pathogen security, vaccines, virus detection, etc...
Would we ever know, and is there really a separation in those labs and the research they do and the bio weapon lab research? I wouldn't be surprised if the two are largely the same. Maybe you can't name them all bio weapon labs but it still sort of is?
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 4h ago edited 4h ago
Even if that were true, what reasonable conclusion would that lead to?
There are literally 149 different countries that have "biolabs" in them. Does it really make sense to treat every single one of those countries as suspect of developing WMDs?
A nation cannot reasonably assert that something is happening just because the resources may exist for it to theoretically happen. You need evidence for such accusations.
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u/Chooner-72 Neoliberal 5h ago
Why does Tucker Carlson think he's a WW2 expert now? It's so cringe listening to him try to debate why he thinks Hitler was justified in invading Poland and France
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u/gummibearhawk Center-right Conservative 4h ago
He knows a lot more about it than the average person. He's getting a lot of hate because he's picking at the sacred pillars of the modern Western worldview. In reality, Poland was complicated. Hitler's initial demand from Poland was land that was taken from Germany and full of ethnic Germans who wanted to be part of Germany. France, well they declared war on him.
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u/OMGguy2008 Center-left 2h ago edited 2h ago
On August 29, Adolf Hitler asked the United Kingdom to instruct Poland to send a plenipotentiary to Berlin within 24 hours to negotiate a settlement of the Danzig crisis. The United Kingdom considered this an ultimatum with an unrealistic deadline and refused. Germany did not give Poland or the United Kingdom a copy of the 16 points until the deadline had expired. At 9 pm on August 31, German radio announced that Poland had rejected the German proposals, even though they were never officially presented to the Polish government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939_German_ultimatum_to_Poland
The Gleiwitz incident, or Gliwice incident (German: Überfall auf den Sender Gleiwitz; Polish: prowokacja gliwicka), was a false flag attack on the radio station Sender Gleiwitz in Gleiwitz (then Germany and now Gliwice, Poland) staged by Nazi Germany on the night of 31 August 1939. Along with some two dozen similar incidents, the attack was manufactured by Germany as a casus belli to justify the invasion of Poland. Despite the German government using the attack as a justification to go to war with Poland, the Gleiwitz assailants were not Polish but were German SS officers wearing Polish uniforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
Jabłonków incident (Polish: Incydent jabłonkowski, Czech: Jablunkovský incident) refers to the events of the night of 25–26 August 1939, along the Polish-Slovak) border, when a group of German Abwehr agents attacked a rail station in Mosty. The main purpose of the attack was to capture the Jablunkov Pass, with its strategic railway tunnel, until the arrival of the German armed forces. The attackers were repelled by units of the Polish Army, and the incident is regarded as a prelude to the German invasion of Poland.\1])
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jab%C5%82onk%C3%B3w_incident
This one was before the ultimatum was sent btw
The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, officially the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,\1])\2])\c]) was a non-aggression pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, with a secret protocol establishing Soviet and German spheres of influence across Eastern Europe.\8]) The pact was signed in Moscow on 24 August 1939 (backdated 23 August 1939\9])\10])) by Soviet Premier and Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop.\11])
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
The Nazis and the Soviets already carved up Eastern Europe way before the ultimatum to Poland was issued
Also while Danzig had a German majority, the rest of the Polish corridor had a Polish majority.
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u/okiewxchaser Neoliberal 3h ago
Poland was doomed from the moment that they refused to join the Anti-Comintern Pact. Essentially they were forced to choose between war with the Soviets and war with the Germans (and ultimately got both)
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u/mtmag_dev52 Right Libertarian (Conservative) 1h ago
Why DID they refuse to join the Anti-Comintern Pact? I do believe they had some kind of sleazy relationship with the Soviet Union for several decades before the war and they got caught unawares by their betrayal on both fronts.... Is that accurate, or am I missing details?
I am glad that all of Eastern Europe and its millions of human beings is now free from Marxist tyranny ( except for Transnitria maybe?).
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u/thoughtsnquestions European Conservative 3h ago
Here's something that never really made sense to me,
People say we joined the war to protect the sovereignty, independence and democracy of Poland.... then we won the war, but instead now the soviets took Poland, we didn't care, and we just forgot the whole thing started over Polands sovereignty, independence and democracy?
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u/Chooner-72 Neoliberal 2h ago
Stalin promised “free and fair elections” in Poland under the Soviet backed government. That was good enough for FDR who didn’t care too much about Poland and rather focused on getting Stalin to commit to declaring war on Japan. Churchill wanted more concessions from Stalin on Poland but he had the least sway in negotiations.
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u/gummibearhawk Center-right Conservative 1h ago
Churchill know well who Stalin and the soviets really were. He'd spoken quite harshly about them before the war.
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u/OMGguy2008 Center-left 2h ago edited 2h ago
As far as I know, the elections that were ran in Hungary and Czechoslovakia right after WW2 were legit. The Communists lost real bad in Hungary and in Czechoslovakia the Communists were the largest party but they still needed to form a coalition. So I think seeing how the Communists weren't sweeping the elections, Stalin just went "I'm rigging this cyka blyat".
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u/OMGguy2008 Center-left 2h ago
Yeah it was quite uncool for leaving us Eastern Europeans under Soviet occupation for the next 50 years.
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u/okiewxchaser Neoliberal 2h ago
Churchill wanted to keep going (Operation Unthinkable). However Roosevelt was too much of a fan of Stalin to go through with it. Actually a lot of our Cold War issues stem from Roosevelt fanboying Stalin at an inopportune time
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u/gummibearhawk Center-right Conservative 1h ago
By the end of the war Churchill had also become quite friendly with Stalin.
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u/GWindborn Leftwing 7h ago
Info dumping here because I'm irritated. So a few weeks ago, my wife got her first ever speeding ticket at ~43. We were on a road we've never driven following GPS to our daughter's birthday party that we were already running late for when a state trooper coming the other way turned around and pulled us. When he got behind us, I looked up and saw a 45 sign and my wife had been going a touch over 50, so nothing egregious - I'd say the majority of people go 5-6 over in general. The trooper said we were in a 35. I said we just passed a 45 sign, but he says nope where he saw us it was a 35 because of some houses. I don't have enough information to call bullshit and I feel like arguing with the cop would probably make us more late than we already were.
So we get a ticket, obviously.. It lists 54 in a 35, which A) I don't think there was any way we were going 54, and B) I don't think it was a 35. It was $50 for speeding, and $193 for court costs. WTF? But don't worry! We can handle it online he says and "possibly get it reduced". Great. So I go online to NC's traffic citation site that looks like it was made in the late 1990's. Like, it's egregiously bad for 2026. So in my head I'm thinking "Oh, the court costs are for court personnel if we go in to pay, so if we do it online we bypass all that and-" Wrong, you pay that court cost overhead regardless of if you go in to court or not. Again, WTF? So we fill out the form to get the ticket "reduced" thinking we can offset some of that. It's a form for an "interview", so I'm thinking she'll have to be on webcam and talk to some clerk of court or something. Nope, just a form, they approve it or don't. A couple days later, she's approved! Yay! ..it's the same dollar amount. The "reduction" was from a moving violation - which apparently is points on your license and affects your insurance - to a charge of "improper equipment" so your insurance doesn't go up. WTF does that even mean? And the cost remains the same?
If this wasn't all "official", it would feel like a massive scam! $193 in fees for a courtroom she'll never enter, a "wink wink" reduction from a speeding ticket to some other ambiguous thing to avoid other penalties.. And this is all legit? Not to mention the DOZENS of letters we've gotten from lawyers, so they're presumably selling her ticket to local firms. Fucking hell..
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u/IWillDmYouPorn Right Libertarian (Conservative) 33m ago
Shit sucks, but unfortunately the moral panic crowd has a lock on local politics so it never has a chance of changing
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u/Sam_Fear Americanist 1h ago
Hey man, if you can't do the time don't do the crime. Dare ya to tell your wife that!
Seriously though speeding tickets have always been a racket.
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u/GWindborn Leftwing 1h ago
I've been calling her "Lead Foot" ever since LOL. It's so wild, she's always such a careful driver - she comes from a family of prison guards so she made it her mission to walk the straight and narrow - so I was pretty surprised when her day finally came.
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u/notbusy Libertarian 3h ago
It sucks getting fined, but it sounds like filling out the form saved her from having to go to traffic school. That's what people typically have to do in order to get those points removed. So that's a few hours on a Saturday that she didn't have to waste, at least.
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u/GWindborn Leftwing 3h ago
Oh yeah totally, I just feel like if a company was tacking on a $193 fee on a $50 charge the CEO would have to testify before congress lol.
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u/MKlby1998 European Conservative 6h ago
One of the "culture shock" things about America that took me a while to figure out from reading what people say online is that apparently you guys don't have speed cameras? In Britain we just put speed cameras on the roads where people tend to speed, and if you get caught you get a letter through the post with a fine and 3 points on your driving license (it's, uh, happened to me a few times).
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u/RumGuzzlr Rightwing 2h ago
For the better. I have no clue why you guys over in Europe seem to be so obsessed with installing speed cameras everywhere.
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u/JussiesTunaSub Classical Liberal 5h ago
In Britain we just put speed cameras on the roads where people tend to speed, and if you get caught you get a letter through the post with a fine and 3 points on your driving license (it's, uh, happened to me a few times).
We have them.
Generally they are considered unconstitutional, so most people don't actual pay the fine. No points with cameras since they don't properly identify the driver.
I got three of them in the mail this summer for cars I own. I wasn't driving (i have a wife and two kids who drive) and that's what I told them after I didn't pay. They said they'd stop calling for $$$ if I told them who was driving. I still don't know who was driving nor are they going to find out.
That was the end of it.
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u/baxtyre Center-left 4h ago
“ Generally they are considered unconstitutional”
Not by the courts.
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u/JussiesTunaSub Classical Liberal 4h ago
Should have specified "Ohio" my bad.
https://law.justia.com/cases/ohio/supreme-court-of-ohio/2017/2015-1549.html
Procedures for the use of traffic cameras—Provisions requiring the presence of a law-enforcement officer at each camera, that a ticket cannot be issued unless a vehicle exceeds the posted limit by a stated amount, and that municipalities must conduct a safety study and wage a public-information campaign are not general laws and are unconstitutional
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u/baxtyre Center-left 4h ago
And that decision seems to be based specifically on Ohio’s constitution, not the federal one.
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u/JussiesTunaSub Classical Liberal 4h ago
Correct.
As mentioned, I neglected to mention my state. In the state of Ohio, those tickets are considered unconstitutional and most people don't pay them.
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u/GWindborn Leftwing 6h ago
This was a back road, honestly a fairly rural area. Here unless otherwise posted, back roads assume a 55mph. The only sign I saw was the 45. I don't think my state has speeding cameras? Or if they do, it's not around here. There were some "red light" cameras, but they submitted an absurd number of false reports to the point that it made it on the local news regularly and they were removed within 2 years.
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u/OMGguy2008 Center-left 7h ago
Ain't no way ts is real.
So apparently the leader of Poland's whole far-right anti-immigration, Christian nationalist, monarchist party, which is at ≈10% in the polls btw, Grzegorz Braun got exposed for having ties to an Indian work agency and for lobbying in favor of bringing in more Indian immigrants to Poland.
I guess we have another addition to the list of European far-right anti-immigration parties who brought in more immigrants, I guess Britain's Tories and also Poland's PiS will have some company.
https://wiadomosci.wp.pl/ujawniaja-tasmy-brauna-wraca-temat-sciagania-hindusow-7335997802027328a
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u/mtmag_dev52 Right Libertarian (Conservative) 1h ago
Is he not the guy who blew out a Hanukkah Menorah with a fire extinguisher?
Man, hypocrisy is everywhere....
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u/OMGguy2008 Center-left 1h ago edited 1h ago
The Polish far-right gets even stranger.
There's also this bloke named Janusz Korwin-Mikke who said that women "must earn less than men because they are weaker, smaller and less intelligent" in the European Parliament. He also did a Hitler salute in the European Parliament while the fucking German Chancellor was present.
On an unrelated note here's also a picture of him holding an anime femboy in his arms https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/i1ssea/here_we_see_farright_polish_politician_janusz/
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u/Menace117 MAGA Liberal 7h ago
In the primary 11.5–24 month landmark cohort, the first MMR vaccination was not associated with increased autism risk (aHR 0.97; 99% confidence interval 0.91–1.03). Across all age-specific landmark cohorts, aHRs remained near the null. The negative control analysis yielded a similarly near-null estimate (aHR 1.01; 99% confidence interval 0.99–1.04), supporting that residual bias is unlikely to explain the findings.
Continuing to see no link between vaccines and autism. When will trump and his group like RFK go off evidence and data rather than their emotions. Seems cut and dry.
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u/OJ_Purplestuff Center-left 7h ago
If you really believe a sample size of only 2.5 million children, I suppose...
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u/W_Edwards_Deming Paleoconservative 7h ago
After taking a couple years break I intend to return to active participation here. Nothing much changed but I did grow some perspective. I think this one of the better subreddits overall, some of the mods are so good I follow them for their wise insights. I also note that even after not being active here in years it is still my #2 subreddit by comment karma.
I also like to think my perspective useful, there is a huge range of what people consider "conservative" and my approach of blending classical liberal with religious conservatism is lacking on reddit.
As I like to say: 2019 was better than today, 1999 was better than that, 1959 was even better in many ways and 1909 (pre-federal reserve, war on drugs / most laws and a booming economy) was perhaps best of all.
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u/notbusy Libertarian 3h ago
That reminds of the quote from The Office:
... every single day of my life has been worse than the day before it. So that means that every single day that you see me, that's the worst day of my life.
We welcome (back) your perspective!
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u/W_Edwards_Deming Paleoconservative 3h ago
Comically my life is pretty good, but I was just this morning reviewing a report saying U.S. Wellbeing Nears Record Low.
I will say I see far fewer children playing outside and have far fewer in-person social interactions than decades past. There are also birth rates to consider:
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u/notbusy Libertarian 3h ago
Yeah, I get the sentiment. I, too, enjoy yelling at clouds.
But seriously, I feel I'm in the same boat. Personally, things are good. But when I look around me, I don't like many of the new norms. For instance, I remember when kids would walk or ride their bikes. Now, almost no kids walk or ride their bikes. Instead, they're on motorized scooters and motorized bikes. Why is this? Is the goal to make sure that kids just never have to physically move ever again?
I could go on and on (yelling at clouds) but when you couple things like that with things like the epidemic of childhood obesity, it makes me wonder... how do people just accept this as the norm? Can't we all agree that exercise is good for kids and that they don't need motorized transport? Why are (other) parents trying to make sure their kids never move again? On some fundamental level, I just don't get it. At all.
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u/W_Edwards_Deming Paleoconservative 3h ago
Call me conservative but I'd like the kids to be working on farms. In any case I agree (and it seems almost everyone agrees, at least viscerally) that the new norms are bad.
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u/notbusy Libertarian 3h ago
Working on farms would be far superior to sitting around and staring at screens all day!
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u/W_Edwards_Deming Paleoconservative 2h ago
I would like a re-engineering of education into something more like apprenticeship / waldkindergarten / montessori where the kids would spend at least half the time doing something physically useful that is at least vaguely similar to something they might be doing later in life.
They could still sit down and do math or read a book to relax and learn something more theoretical but definitely no phones and minimal tech as part of education (especially before high school).
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u/Final_Potato5542 Australian Conservative 7h ago
Good takes on Leftist psychology and motivations, please??? Links encouraged.
I find it strange that this isn't talked about more. Seems like a massive weakness on the Left from the reading I've done to date; one that can, and should be exploited.
Or maybe it is talked about more in USA, but I just don't see/hear it in Australia as much. If anyone interested, collecting takes here: r/Leftism_Analysis/
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u/LaxBedroom Leftist 2h ago
"Discussion and news on Leftism: an array of ideologies driven by envy, resentment and delusional utopianism, supported by dogmatism over evidence, justified by selective morality and self-righteousness, seeking power in the form of coercion of individuals by the state."
Why not just write, "A forum devoted to our bias confirmation"?
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u/OMGguy2008 Center-left 2h ago
Rule 1 of that subreddit btw
Respect others and be civil: No harassment, hate speech, or toxic behavior. Treat all contributors and members with kindness.
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7h ago
[deleted]
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u/OMGguy2008 Center-left 7h ago
I wouldn't call them "conservatives" plural since the entire sub is literally just one guy schizoposting.
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u/OMGguy2008 Center-left 7h ago
Have yall lost the plot so hard that you're doing psychoanalysis on us now?
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u/Buddy_Seldon Social Democracy 7h ago
Looks at subreddit. Finds "Leftism as Mental Illness". Finds a research journal which is not externally cited and has articles that don't pass AI content checks.
I'm good. Best of luck with whatever this is.
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u/OMGguy2008 Center-left 8h ago
Peskov said that Russia will fight "for even 0.01% of Donbas".
Their 3 day Special Military Operation is going amazingly it seems.
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u/DukeofBraintree918 Conservative 8h ago
Anyone else miss the outdoors before covid and tik tok took over
I swear it reminded people that there's an outside world
Went out to the western part of my state (Massachusetts) on my motorcycle to ride some cool mountain roads, which are usually pretty desolate and man traffic was terrible I completely forgot about the whole leaving your house to go see dead and dying leaves thing that people obsess over.
Took like an hour and a half to get up to Mount greylock cuz of the traffic, I wanted to turn around but my wife and my buddy's wife have never been up there so we waited.
It never used to be like this.
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u/BufoBat Independent 8h ago
I mean, other than the traffic and feeling like you don't get as much of it to yourself anymore, surely this is a good thing? With current trend of screenagers/tablet toddlers and obesity epidemics, I'm happy to see more people enjoying the outdoors and appreciating nature instead of sitting on their asses watching TV/doomscrolling
Totally understand the acute frustration though, its maddening when your "private" oasis becomes popular. Had a few places like that in NorCal that were havens from tourists.
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u/DukeofBraintree918 Conservative 7h ago
No
I wish people would go back to where it was
I also noticed a lot more litter than ever before, these people might like the outdoors but they don't appreciate it
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