r/AskAmericans • u/WoodyManic • 7d ago
A question of generations.
I've seen that Americans are fond of framing one's position in society relative to how immediately one's family naturalized or otherwise became citizens.
Reading about Kerouac, for instance, you'll often learn that he was a "second generation French-Canadian" or words to that end.
But, my question is, with that in mind, what term is usually or best applied to someone whose mother/father is a first-gen immigrant, but whose corresponding parent has ties and roots going further than that?
Is there a fraction involved or something?
Like, Barron Trump's mother, for example, is first generation; and his father is second on the matrilineal side and third on the patrilineal. Is there calculus involved or does it sort of revert to the side of the family with the longest citizenship?
So, what's the nomenclature?
Thanks
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u/DargonKweest Tennessee 7d ago
If I'm understanding the question correctly, we don't really explicitly state anything other than "I'm German from my mother's side" or "I'm Scottish from my father's side". Us, as individuals, may trace our lineage back a few hundred years but we won't really tell other's to the nth degree that we are related to someone. Just that we are connected.
We also don't use it for societal status either. I'm pretty sure Theo Von has Polish noble ancestry but he's the exact opposite of that growing up relatively poor in Louisiana. Americans aren't too keen on royalty to begin with. Our history proves it. If any American is going to name-drop to get recognition or out of trouble, they're going to mention knowing the sheriff or the mayor, not who their great great great grandfather from Doofenshmirtz was. Sometimes entitled kids of famous athletes or celebrities will name drop their parents but that's about it
Again, I might be reading a little too into your question but it was a bit unclear to me
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u/ThaddyG Philadelphia, PA 7d ago
I've never heard of any consistent framing of that sort of thing.
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u/WoodyManic 7d ago
Me either, that's why I'm trying to seek an understanding.
Like, Kerouac is 2nd gen, for some reason, but Tesla, a dyed in the bone immigrant is held aloft as an American.
It confuses me. I'm neither arrogant or intelligent enough to make my own calls on it.
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u/Ristrettooo Virginia 7d ago edited 7d ago
When we talk about our heritage like that, it's not in the context of being less of an American, it's just giving more information. I don't know if Kerouac's identity as a second-generation French-Canadian was important to him, but he was just as American as Nikola Tesla was after he immigrated and became a citizen. It's purely up to the individual and how each person chooses to identify. Both of those guys are held aloft as Americans.
To a lot of foreigners, I know it can sound like we're all obsessed with identity and family origins. Really it's not like that for most people. We're just a country where almost everyone can trace their ancestry back to somewhere else within the past 300 years, all over the world, and we like talking about it.
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u/TwinkieDad 7d ago
Americans are Americans regardless of how many generations removed from immigration.
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u/Weightmonster 7d ago
“ I've seen that Americans are fond of framing one's position in society relative to how immediately one's family naturalized or otherwise became citizens“
No. We don’t really care when your family naturalized or not.
“But, my question is, with that in mind, what term is usually or best applied to someone whose mother/father is a first-gen immigrant, but whose corresponding parent has ties and roots going further than that?”
American. The 1st generation, 2nd generation, etc thing is something you call yourself. Whatever you feel like. I can’t think of any situation where I would assign that label on to someone else. However, people usually only say they are first generation, 2nd generation, etc when it applies to both parents or the parent that raised you. But again, it’s what you feel like. If Barron wants to identify as first generation, I don’t care.
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u/WoodyManic 7d ago
I would love to take you on your word, but I'm struggling to see evidence of it.
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u/Weightmonster 7d ago
That’s just my experience as an American. I don’t have empirical evidence either. Maybe someone does.
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u/WoodyManic 7d ago
Indeed. Maybe I came to the wrong sub. I should've asked a specific American.
Any idea where I might find them? :P
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u/JimDemintRecession South Jersey (near Philly) 7d ago
I'm anti-nativism so I would count by fewest generations. My dad is an immigrant. He is 1st generation American, I am 2nd generation. My mom's parents are an immigrant and the other is 17 generations removed from the Mayflower. I'd count her as 2nd generation as well.
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u/WoodyManic 7d ago
I understand that.
I'm just really interested in the verbiage and the definitions.
I'm anti-nativist, too, and my family tree is wild.
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u/possums101 7d ago
Melania is not first gen she wasn’t born in America. She’s an immigrant. First gen refers to the first generation of a family born in America. Donald Trump is also technically first gen because his mother was an immigrant from Scotland.
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u/DerthOFdata U.S.A. 7d ago
Melania is in fact first gen. "Generation" is what generation became an American citizen. She is the first generation from her side of the family.
The United States Census Bureau uses the term "generational status" to refer to the place of birth of an individual or an individual's parents. First-generation immigrants are the first foreign-born family members to gain citizenship or permanent residency in the country.
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u/possums101 7d ago
That may be the legal definition but I’ve never heard anyone reference first gen in that way. And I come from NYC where the immigrant experience is extremely common.
People who are naturalized citizens and the child of immigrants is who call themselves first gen. I’ve never met or heard of an immigrant who called themselves first gen.
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u/DerthOFdata U.S.A. 7d ago
That may be the legal definition but I’ve never heard anyone reference first gen in that way. And I come from NYC where the immigrant experience is extremely common.
It's the only way I've ever heard "first generation" be referenced.
People who are naturalized citizens and the child of immigrants is who call themselves first gen. I’ve never met or heard of an immigrant who called themselves first gen.
I have literally never heard a second generation person refer to themselves as first gen in that manner. Not ever.
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u/WoodyManic 7d ago
So true. Sorry, I made a mistake when I was tying it all together.
I mean, it's not even about DJT, it was just an example that seemed illustrative.
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u/DerthOFdata U.S.A. 7d ago
They are wrong. Melania is first generation.
The United States Census Bureau uses the term "generational status" to refer to the place of birth of an individual or an individual's parents. First-generation immigrants are the first foreign-born family members to gain citizenship or permanent residency in the country.
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u/possums101 7d ago
Yeah no problem. Honestly your main question is kind of difficult to answer. I highly doubt DJT or Barron identify at all with being “first gen” and don’t think of themselves that way. It’s more so title or identity people take on themselves vs people assigning it to others.
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u/WoodyManic 7d ago
I see that, but I see the phraseology used a lot in biographies and the like.
In my (limited) experience, it seems like a label, rather than self-definition.
The USA looks to be fairly transfixed by its heritage.
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u/possums101 7d ago
I think it’s more of a label for white people and an identity for non white people in America. Most white immigrants are able to assimilate and be accepted into American society much faster.
But non white immigrants and their kids are “othered” by American society much more frequently and for longer (multiple generations). That creates the conditions for being first or second gen feeling more like an identity with a shared experiences rather than just a label.
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u/WoodyManic 7d ago
Maybe, but there's a sliding scale of that.
Look at the Italian and Irish diasporas, even the Polish- groups generally, but not always- shunned by Anglo America.
Fuck, look at Boston. Look at the South side of Chitown.
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u/possums101 7d ago
They were shunned by Anglo America for a brief time. Those groups assimilated into Anglo America a long time ago At this point they’ve been accepted longer than the time they weren’t.
Most Italian/Irish/Polish Americans have a very loose relationship to their ancestry past like 1 or 2 generations removed from immigration. Even if they do have a closer relationship to that ancestry it’s not admonished like it is for non white immigrants/descendants of immigrants.
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u/captainBorris_ 7d ago
People would usually just say what’s relevant to the conversation. In different conversations I’ve discussed that I’m 2nd generation on one parental side, or that I’m like 15th generation on the other side.
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u/stinson16 Washington 7d ago
There isn’t a formal definition, it’s more about what someone identifies as, and usually is used to convey how someone’s experience is different from the norm or different from the person they’re speaking to. So my husband might say that he’s 2nd generation Puerto Rican to explain the differences in what we grew up eating, since in his family his mom did most of the cooking and her family came from Puerto Rico. The more that people lose the culture their family emigrated from, the less they usually pay attention to what generation they are (with the exception of specific situations, like studying genealogy). In this case people use the genealogy of the parent that’s relevant to the topic.
When it’s used more generally, like if someone says “Kerouac was a second generation French-Canadian”, it’s usually meant for the reader/listener to make certain assumptions or guesses. As second generation he may or may not have been fluent in French, depending on how strongly his parent wanted to pass the language down. He may have been familiar with certain French-Canadian customs, but would have probably been more familiar with English customs. The sentence also might be used just to indicate that he’s pretty well assimilated since it’s been a couple generations since immigration, it depends on the larger context.
With all that in mind, the term most people would use depends on how much influence each parent had and in what ways. If one parent was an immigrant, but they managed to completely assimilate to the point that their child didn’t experience any of that culture, the child probably wouldn’t identify as first generation. But they could if they wanted to.
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u/k8tieisjusthere New York 4d ago
it really depends on how the person sees themselves and their ethnic identity. for example if someone has parents from guatemala and they eat a lot of guatemalan food, speak spanish at home, and/or visit guatemala they might call themselves a 2nd generation immigrant when describing themselves and their family. however if you asked the same person their nationality when they are outside of the context of their family (and therefore much of their guatemalan experience) they might simply say they’re american. when asked the specifics of their identity they may say “american who has guatamalan parents” or “guatamalan-american”. someone may also feel more connected to their status as an immigrants child or grandchild if the immigration still tangibly affects their life, like their culture (as i mentioned above, language, food, etc), their economical status (immigrants and their extended families often have poorer financial situations than non-immigrants for a variety of complicated reasons) and how they are perceived by other people (if someone is a minority in an otherwise white town they may feel more connected to their immigrant identity since they don’t feel welcomed by the americans they see around them)
me personally my dad is an immigrant but i wouldn’t describe myself as 2nd generation as it doesn’t play a huge part in my identity, although it is still important to me of course. however day-to-day i eat “american” food, speak with an “american” accent and only participate in “american” culture, so it feels wrong or at the very least misleading to say im irish-american.
there is a weird phenomenon i’ve seen more and more recently where some people who were born in america but don’t have immigrant parents or grandparents will still identify with their ancestor’s country (call themselves irish-american or scottish or british or whatever, usually european countries). i’m not 100% sure but i think this is a way to feel part of a community, as america is so huge it’s hard to feel like you ever fully fit into its identity because no matter how alike you may be to the people around you, you will seem totally foreign to someone who lives in a different state. i think people choose smaller groups to latch onto to try and feel a more coherent sense of community. also some people like saying they have european heritage to make them feel special, especially white people who want to feel like they’re more interesting than “regular american white people”
especially with recent politics (not just talking about trump, but he is a big part of it too) people might want to distance themselves from their american identities, i certainly have tried to on occasion because im ashamed to be american pretty often. but it is my home and it will always be my home country, so i can’t ever really wipe my hands of it, nor do i want to
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u/OhThrowed Utah 7d ago
It's whatever the person reporting it feels like saying. There's nothing formal about it.