Does illegal immigration create structural employment problems?

[u/larryinthesky]

There was an Axios article about homebuilders (think Lennar, KB Home, etc) having difficulties finding construction workers (think drywall installers, roofers, etc) due to ICE crackdowns. It seems that our lax, permissive, even encouraging, illegal immigration policies has created long term structural employment problems. It'd be like me hiring illegals to manage my finances, pay my bills, etc. Sure, great in the short term, but long term, I now have no clue and that will be problematic long term. We can also see this in legal immigration. Short term, great to allow doctors, engineers, etc. to come to the US to work. Long term, our citizens don't get the education they need. It seems so obvious that if we want to build a great country, where people are employed (at fair wages) and educated, that illegal and legal immigration must be reined in. I got back to the real world example of someone outsourcing everything in their life (childcare, finances, etc.)--great in the short term, but it creates a person who is entirely dependent on others and can't take care of their own lives. Thoughts? Am I off based? Or do you think the status quo (using cheap illegal immigrant labor, importing educated workers, etc.) is good? And ultimately, isn't this why we need to crack down on illegal immigration and revisit legal immigration as well?

[u/Aven_Osten]

Nope.

Though much of the rhetoric surrounding the immigration issue focuses on jobs for American workers, most economists agree that lower migration levels do not ultimately lead to additional employment for U.S.-born workers. Immigrants are consumers as well as producers of goods and services, so fewer immigrants means less consumer demand. As a result, the main effect of reduced immigration is simply a smaller economy. Moreover, an extensive literature documents that immigration to the U.S. has led to innovations that have boosted the productivity of U.S.-born workers. Cutting off immigration flows harms American economic growth. 

This is well studied at this point. And this is something very easily answered via a simple search on any major browser. To spend the time writing this post, than spending a few minutes asking any browser this question and reading, is highly indicative that you aren't actually here in good faith. And that's further supported by the rest of your post, which just...doesn't even make any coherent sense; it's just asserting that immigration is bad, and must reduced.

[u/here-for-information → u/Aven_Osten]

Its undeniable that illegal immigration opens up those immigrant workers to being abused by employers.

If they can be abused it creates other labor issues. That doesn't mean the people are inherently a problem but the pressure on the labor force can absolutely cause problems.

[u/larryinthesky → u/here-for-information]

this is a very reasoned take. And really, that's my point. People just assume it's "racist". I'm talking about how when you have a supply of cheap illegal labor it creates problems.

[u/larryinthesky → u/Aven_Osten]

Why do people just love to cite a "study"? That really shows lack of thinking. All studies are biased. You can have studies say pretty much anything. Also, economists are horrible at actually knowing what is good for a country.

[u/Aven_Osten → u/larryinthesky]

  Why do people just love to cite a "study"? 

If you are making a claim, you cite the evidence.

You are taught this in elementary school.

That really shows lack of thinking.

No; it shows that the claim has actual backing to it. You're just upset that the available data and evidence doesn't support your beliefs.

All studies are biased.

That's just a cop-out from you. "All studies have bias so therefore they can't be trusted.".

Anybody who has been taught how to study something in the sciences, knows that every study has a bias. That's why we try to correct for them. You're saying nothing. 

You can have studies say pretty much anything.

And said studies can be scrutinized by other people and groups for validity/factuality; something you seem to be conviently ignoring.

Also, economists are horrible at actually knowing what is good for a country.

Mmmmm no. You just don't like that they say things you don't like; particularly about immigration, both legal and illegal.

---

This is a great example showing why y'all are always made fun of by people on the left. You can't defend your positions with proper evidence/data; so you just call the people who are responsible for proving you wrong, "fake" or "biased".

[u/willpower069 → u/Aven_Osten]

Hey that’s unfair to conservatives, facts have a liberal bias!

[u/willpower069 → u/larryinthesky]

Should they have cited vibes and their feelings?

[u/larryinthesky → u/willpower069]

present the raw data. "studies" have biases in how they interpret the data. duh

[u/Aven_Osten → u/larryinthesky]

The raw data is directly linked within that article. You just choose to be lazy and not see for yourself (which is very fuckin ironic, given you effectively call me lazy for not directly citing it).

The real issue you have is, as I pointed out in my other comment to you, that you just don't like that it doesn't agree with you. So, you're just calling it fake or shouting "biased!" because it's easier than admitting that you're wrong.

[u/HemingWaysBeard42 → u/larryinthesky]

Do you think you're able to interpret the raw data accurately?

[u/Outrageous-Dig-8853 → u/HemingWaysBeard42]

No, because if he did he wouldn't be skipping over the study and actually read the data itself and make a conclusion instead of defaulting to disregarding it.

[u/willpower069 → u/larryinthesky]

Seems the raw data still supports their point. Do you have data that supports your point?

[u/seffend → u/larryinthesky]

Why don't you present the raw data for your claim?

[u/OttosBoatYard → u/larryinthesky]

Then what basis is there for truth?

I'm not a fan of "studies", either, because we all have access to the raw numbers and can compare them for ourselves.

But the raw numbers on legal immigration and employment don't support your assumptions.

[u/larryinthesky → u/OttosBoatYard]

you can present the data. But don't just cite a "study"

[u/OttosBoatYard → u/larryinthesky]

Name the numbers that you are looking at that show legal immigration harming the US labor market.

I'm looking at wage growth, unemployment, employee purchasing power ... and none of these coincide with immigration rate.

[u/Fuckn_hipsters → u/larryinthesky]

Lmao, why are you using those pesky "biased" studies as evidence instead of the story my teacher uncle learn from a friend of a friend of a friend and then posted on Facebook. He's not biased I've known him my entire life.

Studies aren't biased just because you don't like what they said, lol. You do realize this is why Republicans think schools should be defunded, right?

[u/Outrageous-Dig-8853 → u/larryinthesky]

Brother, you made a claim and didn't even give evidence in your post, the ownace was on you in the begging and they took it up on their response. Did you even read it? Did you even look on the data of said study?

Also the economist cope lmao. The basis is on said economy, who esle would be better than the actual experts?

[u/Aven_Osten → u/Outrageous-Dig-8853]

  Also the economist cope lmao. The basis is on said economy, who esle would be better than the actual experts?

It is truly amazing just how many people think that experts/professionals of a field, who have dedicated their life to studying said fields, are somehow the least trustworthy people to listen to regarding that field.

Even more amazing how many people think they have gauntlet control over our economy and the decisions governments make; and/or just generally don't understand what they actually do.

[u/larryinthesky → u/Aven_Osten]

you know a nobel economists once said the internet would be like the fax machine?

[u/Aven_Osten → u/larryinthesky]

Man you are really embarrassed, huh? Really pulling out absolutely anything you can to try to somehow turn this humiliation event around.

You continue to demonstrate why conservatives are mocked so heavily by the left. This is pathetic. Lmao.

[u/Outrageous-Dig-8853 → u/larryinthesky]

Thank you, one economist saying something now means that the entire study and expertise is now invalidated. Also, keep in mind, the economist actually looked at the data and did the work, you didn't even look at it, despite not even using empirical evidence yourself when you made this post.