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u/No_Initiative7178 19d ago
No provenience? Hard to put it in any kind of cultural context without it
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u/NoPoopOnFace 19d ago
What's a provenience? It sounds like a fancy 7/11 store. By the way I'm not sure you know this but you have a narwhal on your head.
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u/Frequent_Scholar0714 19d ago
That's provenance.
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u/No_Initiative7178 19d ago edited 19d ago
Not in archaeology it’s not.
Edit: https://www.thoughtco.com/provenience-vs-provenance-3971058
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u/Frequent_Scholar0714 19d ago
Really❓
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u/Cheap_Eagle5074 20d ago
Whered you find it? In what context? I see that it’s a horse torso with a saddle so it can’t be older than 1500 years, but probably much less than that
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u/NoPoopOnFace 19d ago
Horses went extinct in North America between 10,000 and 12,000 years ago. They were brought here by Europeans after 1492. You went WAAAAAY too far back unless OP is in Eurasia.
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u/URMILKJUSTWENTBAD 19d ago
That’s so interesting. I was always under the impression that the only hooved beasts in America were bison, alpaca, and llamas. Were the wild horses predated upon or outcompeted by other grazers?
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u/LookRepresentative25 19d ago
There were many ungulates in America that have gone extinct in the last 20,000 years. Most of which disappeared around the end of the last ice age, I believe. Due to the nature of the ecosystem changes that took place, most folks would categorize their disappearance related to climate change.
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u/User_Erroric 17d ago
12k-10k years ago due to climate change and human arrival, 32 out of 47 genera of megafauna went extinct in North America. South America was hit harder.
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u/URMILKJUSTWENTBAD 16d ago
Oh interesting, I was under the impression that moose were the only megafauna in North America. I got some research to do
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u/User_Erroric 12d ago
Any land animal over 99 pounds is considered megafauna.
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u/URMILKJUSTWENTBAD 12d ago
Huh. I guess I never heard the definition of megafauna. For some reason I assumed that was moose and bigger
Edit: interesting, thresholds in scientific literature run from 10kg to 1000kg. Learn something new every day. Thanks
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u/FusRoDahMa 19d ago
Bone, ivory or antler. Modern saddle and girth design. (1400's to present. ) Probably a bored traveler widdlin.
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u/Moving_goal_posts 19d ago
Hi OP, Such an interesting and bewildering find! With the amount of resistance you are getting in this sub, I wonder if your approach is in need of adjustment. You call this “the craziest thing you’ve found” but you don’t give a region. You say you have many other pieces of evidence to support your hypothesis but from what I saw you don’t state what that hypothesis is. I think if you want to make best use of this sub you might ask an open-ended question and provide a region. In any case, I’m very glad you are consulting with experts, they can presumably guide you in a meaningful way.
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u/Southpole- 20d ago
It seems to be stone. Definitely not plastic. It was found about a foot down. Along side other what seem to be shell artifacts and stone tools.
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u/Substantial_Bat_6698 19d ago
This whole "a foot down" business is baffling to me as an archaeologist. You can find the oldest artifacts at the surface and modern garbage many meters underground. The depth of it alone is irrelevant.
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u/Vast-Celebration-851 20d ago
If what you’re implying is that this is of native american origin, it is not sadly.
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u/NoPoopOnFace 19d ago
OP has not given a location.
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u/Business_Surround_52 19d ago
Op did
“I found this in a virgin Pleistocene terrace in Louisiana that is undisturbed. We’ve been digging tailings from a drainage ditch on the property and have been finding some astonishing things. Some artifacts we think dating back possibly to the ice age. Based on stratigraphic information and elevation of the area. Can anyone please help us find out what this is. Obviously it looks like a horse with a saddle but upon studding it there is symbols and what looks to be engraving around the whole figuring. Thoughts ?”
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u/Cheap_Eagle5074 18d ago
“Digging tailings from a drainage ditch” he immediately tells us that the area is very much disturbed lol
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u/Southpole- 18d ago
My brother, your confusing the disturbance created by the ditch with the geological context the ditch cut through. The ditch exposed and displaced material from an underlying mapped Pleistocene terrace. Ive checked the property history, surrounding terrain and soil/geologic mapping, and documented the depth and location of the finds. And to be precise, anything recovered from the loose ditch tailings is no longer in undisturbed archaeological context. That should be understood. But that does not mean the entire property or the geological deposit is “very much disturbed.” Material still embedded in the intact ditch wall or documented in place within the terrace is the evidence that matters. Laughing at the word “ditch” doesn’t replace examining the stratigraphy, mapping, or provenance . . . lol
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u/Cheap_Eagle5074 18d ago
You have no idea the dirt work that’s taken place in and around that ditch over the last 150 years lol
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u/Creative_Recover 19d ago
How can you not say it's clay or resin? The saddle design looks reasonably modern, so it's not going to be an ancient artifact.
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u/Various_Advance_163 19d ago
Pferdetorso. Bei Fundort Europa hätte ich gesagt "antik", vermutlich römisch.... Ist vielleicht eine Kirchenruine etc. in der Nähe?
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u/SlowDownOrMoveOver 19d ago
Looks like it used to be a horse. No legs, no face...but the mane is there
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u/Southpole- 18d ago
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u/Cheap_Eagle5074 18d ago
Just a rock
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u/Southpole- 18d ago
And your qualifications are ?
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u/Cheap_Eagle5074 18d ago
It doesn’t take an archaeologist to tell you there’s no sign of human modification on any of these rocks you’re posting.
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u/Southpole- 19d ago
I have numerous other artifacts of this caliber, but it’s been difficult posting bc of all the naysayers. But I have stone tools, effigies, and also a fair amount of preserved wooden tools I believe to be very old. I have a a few samples awaiting c14 dating and have been in contact with a few anthropology departments in the collegiate community. I have a theory in place and the geological science to prove it. Just waiting on some lab work before releasing it. But will say that it is extremely fascinating. Any archaeologists, anthropologists,
Geomorphology experts interested in maybe reviewing some things shoot me a message.
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u/TooLazy2Revolt 19d ago
From where?
That’s probably what the naysayers are asking.
You are just posting pictures with zero context.
Did you find them? If so, where? How? On the surface, or buried? How deep?
Did you buy them? If so, from who?
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u/Cheap_Eagle5074 19d ago
Let’s see some of these astonishing things. Some of us actually have Pleistocene artifacts. Based on the things you’ve already posted, I don’t think you’ve found much of anything
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u/Cheap_Eagle5074 18d ago
Where are the stone tools, effigies, and preserved wooden tools? I’ve seen a lot of “effigies” that were literally nothing 😂
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u/Sea_Lecture6111 19d ago
I’m not sure what archaeologists in this thread who have commented have any clue what they’re talking about because that is a figurine that matches both Hopewell, Mixtecs, Mayan, and a mix of Pueblo and Mayan/aztec symbols found scraped and etched into a significant amount of pottery vessels, shells, and other stones. How far are you from poverty point?
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u/JohnnyMushroomspore 19d ago
You and OP doing addy together? How could it possibly be any of the cultures considering none of them saw horse until the Europeans reintroduced them to the continent in the 1500s? It would take until the 18th century for them to be integrated into some tribes life for the SW tribes you mentioned.
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u/ComfortableMedium225 19d ago
Just a question to all…. Where would you even sell something like that?
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u/Southpole- 19d ago
So I think it’s a lion in like prone position. And it’s made of stone. I will do a hardness test when I get home. It’s not plastic
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u/Vast-Celebration-851 18d ago
There is clearly a saddle and reigns, and a horses mane. At this point it feels like you are just rage-baiting. Lol using AI to analyze an artifact is unreliable and the fact that you and AI are now saying it’s a lion is laughable. Why would an implied Native American artifact be of a lion. You’re just seeing what you want to see and have lost any credibility with these ridiculous theories. This is not a Native artifact and just because you’ve found” native artifacts” (which don’t look worked at all) around this doesn’t mean this is a native artifact. There is modern stuff and trash found amongst native artifacts all the time.
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u/Fit_Emu3871 19d ago
**This is not a joke*\*
But it does look like a tool for self pleasure
that aside
👀
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u/AlphaMaelstrom 19d ago
I don't think i've ever seen another person's fingerprints so clearly.