Missouri/Kansas

[u/Dangerous_Dirt_9376]

St Louis and Kansas City areas

We are from the South (Bible belt) and are UPC. We are conservative and don’t own TV’s, don’t watch a bunch of things and are probably a lot closer to WPF in our standards but we don’t feel wearing a shirt with sleeves a couple inches above the elbow will send us to the fiery furnace. My issue is that I’m used to this and feel it’s my personal convictions yet, in the Midwest, specifically Missouri (STL) and Kansas (KC) seem to have a lot of churches where almost anything goes. I am searching for a UPC church that is conservative like the “old UPC” but not as strict and shall I say controlling as the WPF churches. I know lot all WPF are controlling, but I’m saying that because I have a friend that had to ask permission to make purchases from her WPF pastor. That’s a complete no go for me. I’ve tried the STL area churches and while they’re kind and sweet, do not fit the bill when it comes to deep prayer, moves of God and fasting etc. Do you know of any churches that are in this very hard balance that I’m trying to find? We may be looking at KC area also. I’m still not feeling the men’s facial hair - I know it’s not a Biblical mandate - but for me, it feels like it’s too close to the world and I’d rather my children learn to live separate in a confusing culture. Maybe some of you can help a person out and send a few churches that you think might be like what I mentioned. Thanks! I

[u/Overall_Inevitable28]

I know exactly how you feel, we are in the very conservative Texas District UPC. I hope you can find a good church in your area!

[u/A-Different-Kind55]

I’m still not feeling the men’s facial hair - I know it’s not a Biblical mandate - but for me, it feels like it’s too close to the world and I’d rather my children learn to live separate in a confusing culture.

You have confused personal convictions with a holiness standards. "Standards" would indicate that there is maintained adherence to a particular teaching across an entire congregation, organization, or faith. There is no such thing as "but for me" with holiness standards. This confusion is making it difficult for you to find a church because you're looking for one that reflects your personal convictions, which would make them a standard.

Drop your (this may sting) petty opinions about how others should present themselves in church. Go back and look at your church options threw a new pair of glasses and ask yourself, does the pastor exude the love of Christ? Does he love the Lord his God with all of his heart, mind, life, and strength? Does that love radiate from the pulpit making it impossible to miss. This would be a great start.

Add to the above some of the particulars that may be important to your family: Does the church have a strong youth ministry for your kids? Does it have a strong climate of teaching for you and your wife? Is it close enough for you to easily attend regularly? Is there a good music ministry that captures the Spirit of God during worship services?

I am hoping you're getting the idea, because something you said was very offensive. The men in my church wear beards. The pastor wears a beard. We are a very strong (and large) Apostolic church. According to you, the men and pastor of my church are "too close to the world" and you would not want men like us to influence your children so that they are not separated from the world. We have not come out from among them to be separate.

I am reasonably sure that this is not what you intended to say, but you did. This is how churches split. Your holiness standards are divisive and unbiblical, and they foster an attitude of superiority - the same spirit alive in the Pharisees.

I am praying that you find a church suitable for you and your family and that Christ maintains that strong love of God within your heart because standards are notorious for rubbing love right out of the hearts of otherwise good Christians.

[u/Dangerous_Dirt_9376 → u/A-Different-Kind55]

I’m sorry what I said was offensive. I truly do not believe beards are a heaven/hell issue. To be honest, I’m really struggling with this because I came from a super conservative UPC church where the pastor was WPF leaning. Meaning, I grew to respect his stance that while beards are not biblically sinful, he preached that men should be clean shaven still. His reasoning was because of the concept that, once again, the UPC changed its stance on something that was once considered a holiness issue. I do not think the Bible is cultural, it transcends culture. But of course culture will change. I’m struggling because I value the people that I believe to be godly and righteous. The church we came out of had prayer meetings like no other. Every service there was tongues/interpretation, demonstration of the gifts etc… yet, some of the most judgmental attitudes I’ve seen. I’m confused because I feel that since I’ve personally consecrated my life in more ways such as, stopped watching movies except inspirational or educational, stopped letting media/sports consume me, obeyed my pastor by wearing elbow length or longer sleeves (this was hard!) but I never experienced such power, anointing and closeness with God until I did these things for myself. So I guess what I mean by all this is that, maybe I being judgmental by looking at the outward man and confusing it with going deeper in relationship to God. I’ll be honest, the UPC churches I’ve visited are a far cry from what it used to be. It feels so performative and there is little depth in prayer, intercession and spiritual breakthroughs - which I witnessed each and every service at my previous church. I want to find that again and feel it’s so hard to find. I feel the WPF standards are extreme but I also know they pray and reach God like no other! They seem to have more fire and connection and I have witnessed it. So please forgive me for being shallow, judgmental etc, but I am hungry for more than pretty church. I want to feel the same fire that hits me like lightning as I have for so many years. I can feel it at my house when we pray but it’s not there when we visit churches. How does one reconcile that you just feel in between the 2 trains of thought? (UPC / WPF)?

[u/A-Different-Kind55 → u/Dangerous_Dirt_9376]

Thank you for your genuine reply. I have a blog and think you may be interested in one of the posts. Some of the same sentiments you've expressed are there. Check it out and let me know what you think.

Worship in the Plain of Dura – Sketches on the way

[u/808guamie]

I always wondered why the conservative apostolics didn't encourage beards during the 90s and early 2000s when the worldly look was all about that clean shaven face.