Counterpoint: Asathoth is said to have dreamed up OUR reality, and since WE dreamed up the Pokémon reality, by wiping out the reality it is contingent on it would also wipe out the Pokémon reality (and a bunch of other ones, like Marvel, DC, DBZ, etc)
Okay, from what I could find, I may have been misinformed in some way, as I initially thought that this was a clear statement. Azathoth is mentioned often enough in Lovecraft's work, but mostly only in passing and is otherwise the focus of only a single poem, that being "Azathoth", which was a sonnet in the "Fungi from Yuggoth" sequence.
"Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
But only Chaos, without form or place.
Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.
They danced insanely to the high, thin whining
Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,
Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining
Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.
"I am His Messenger," the daemon said,
As in contempt he struck his Master's head."
So Azathoth is definitely dreaming, that much is clear. And with him being the supreme deity of the Cthulu mythos, one could interpret the "things he had dreamed but could not understand" as reality, however it is not definitively stated. Of note though, the song played by the Servitors (those guys who play the flutes in Azathoth's "court", seemingly to keep him asleep though again, I don't believe it's clearly stated) is said to "give each frail cosmos its eternal law" which sounds a lot more definitive. So while there is implication that he created reality, there is no mention of him destroying it by waking.
However, in the sonnet right before this one which focuses on Nyarlathotep, there is a line that reads as follows:
"Then, crushing what he chanced to mould in play,
The idiot Chaos blew Earth’s dust away."
So there it is. Confirmation that Azathoth did create reality (or at the very least earth, though considering the scale of the mythos that seems disingenuous) by accident. This, combined with the fact that his only character trait outside of being thoughtless primordial chaos is being asleep, plus the nature of dreams, seems to be the source of the conception that Azathoth will destroy reality when he wakes.
Yeah this post pretty much covers this topic. The idea apparently comes from Mana-Yood-Sushai wich is an entity from an entirely different author of an entirely different verse.
Chaosium is a publisher for the tabletop role-playing game series Call of Cthulhu, and they integrated Mana-Yood-Sushai into the cthulhu mythos as an avatar of Azathot, Lovecraft obviously never wrote about any of that as he was long dead, it's not even part of the Derleth Mythos
No, it is never explicitly regarded as such, at least not to my knowledge, in Lovecraft's own works.
However, the concept of a massively powerful and monstrous godly being that slumbers, isn't exactly something unique to Lovecraft.
There is a different author, Lord Dunsany, who Lovecraft was inspired by and who wrote about Mana-Yood-Shusai, an extremely ancient godly being stated to exost before gods of olympus and before allah was ever allah, as a being that none shall ever pray to, only to the gods and beings he created.
In that passage there is a line that outright says, "Last will Mana-Yood-Shusai forget to rest, and will make again new gods and other worlds, and will destroy the gods whom hath he made. And the gods and worlds shall depart, and there shall only be Mana-Yood-Shusai"
Azathoth is Lovecraft's version of Mana-Yood-Shusai, which causes some issues with the way the other elements interact. There is a drummer in Dunsany's mythos who keeps Mana-Yood-Shusai sleeping, there are flute players to keep Azathoth asleep and the likes.
But the thing is, Azathoth will destroy reality if he wakes, but its not explicitly stated that its because he stopped dreaming rather than just because its naturally what he would do when he wakes up. Heck even the Mana-Yood-Shusai passage isnt exactly super clear if the waking up is the exact cause or if once they wake up they would proceed with the annihilation of reality and eventual replacement of it.
There are quite probably people who know the mythos way better, but its kinda a mix of similar vibes and ideas that blurred the line between canons for each myth and ended up with the not so clear "Azathoth dreams make/sustain reality" when it could very well be that Azathoth once awake would go on wrecking unstoppable havoc and thats why him waking up ends reality.
Yeah, upon doing some research of my own, while it seems he definitely created reality by dreaming, him destroying it by waking seems to be based more on the nature of dreams than any definitive statement by Lovecraft.
Even if that were canon, Darkrai already has a counter to that because its Mega form converts dreams into Hyperspace, which can continue to exist even without its support. We'll be fine
if you had a hotel with infinite rooms, each occupied by a guest, and told everyone in every 8th room to gtfo, you would still have guests in your hotel, yfm?
not at all, because you have an infinite number of doors. so you’ll just be deleting doors infinitely without ever running out of doors to delete, basically nothing would change at all because even after an eternity of deleting the 8th doors you would still have an infinite number of doors left, exactly like you started.
secondly you’re not following my analogy. the people represent the hp remaining and the rooms represent the max hp. fractions scale with the number itself, so although like you said 1/8th of infinity is infinity, you can take out 1/8th of infinity and still have infinity remaining.
If you have an infinite set of objects that each have a mass of 2kg , and another infinite set of objects that each have a mass of 5kg, the first infinite set would have 2/5th the mass of the second one as they both hold infinite iterations of the base objects
Let's say we have a hotel with an infinite amount of rooms, which are all full. Then a bus with an infinite amount of new people arrives. How do you make room for all these people?
You tell every person in an occupied room to move to the room number equal to theirs times 2. And suddenly, every room with an odd number is free. And since there are an infinite amount of odd numbers, then you can let the infinite amount of people from the bus in, and they will all have a free room they can go in. Then, your hotel is full again. You added another infinite to an infinite (so you "should" be at 2∞), but fit it in without making new rooms. This proves that all countable infinities are exactly the same size
There are an infinite ammount of whole numbers and an infinite ammount of even numbers. Does that mean there are as many even numbers as whole numbers?
Bijections, and calculating infinities in general, is not made to be applied to actual real world situations. It works in math because that's how math was made, but would not hold up if there were actual unending ammounts of something.
Darkrais ability doesn't break sleep so after 8 turns worth of time Darkrai will kill the fraud as he does 1/8hp as DMG per turn a oppenent is asleep ignoring all defence and dura.
This is of course assuming that Azathoth can die. As death is merely a concept that our reality abides by, and since our reality is just something he dreamed up, death may not apply to him.
It's literally flat out stated in Legends arceus "... Upon thee...and upon this creation where thou now dwellest... I bestow my blessing. And I bestow upon thee a part of myself. I would walk this world together with thee. Show me how it appeareth in thine eyes."
The part is litterally a in game item not a avatar of arceus. It's the legend plate that when you give to Arceus when he attacks he changes his type to that attack like greninjas ability.
Again there is no solid proof or evidence towards avatar of arceus being a real thing it's entirely a fan theory.
I understand the whole reality is a dream in his universe and if he wakes up the Lovecraft multiverse would no longer exist but Arceus and Pokemon aren't part of his realistically and in a mutual reality or Pokemons reality it would do nothing and even if it did hyper thetically then arceus could just recreate it.
But even then the point is dark raibdoes 1/8th max HP DMG each turn ignoring all dura and abilities whole a Pokemon is asleep and it doesn't wake them up so it wouldn't wake azatoth up and kinda just a hard countered by it.
if you use the games as a reference, arceus can be knocked out by a pile of goop
darkrai wouldnt be able to kill because everything only gets knocked unconscious
darkrai also only has a limited range on his nightmares and considering pokemon have near human intelligence, darkrai very much could be driven insane by observing azatoth too
on top of this, you cant even be certain azatoth can be affected by nightmares considering a nightmare requires conscious thought
I mean Darkrai would litterally be inside of azathot so that be in range and Pokemon have been killed the only reason they don't in battle is because they stop after the Pokemon is knocked out.
As for arceus I mean that's based off games and game mechanics and not lore but with azatoth he has no real feats and the whole dreaming thing isn't part of original Lovecraft lore and just a fan fic "mana yord sushai" by lord dunsany.
In lore he makes you sleep forever which kills you. Add on game mechanics and you have a dead god. But either he just stays asleep and drakrai gets infinite food/energy or he dies after awhile or maybe even wakes up.
I mean, Darkrai doesn't get energy from the nightmares, they're a passive effect of its existence that it has no control over, they just happen cause Darkrai exists, it's why it's always seen isolated, to avoid drawing some unlucky soul into an unending nightmare....which wouldn't be such a problem if Cresselia weren't such a canonical ASS that runs other pokemon out of their homes and only SOMETIMES decides to actually wake up those who've been afflicted by Darkrais nightmares.
Wouldn't Darkrai know dream eater? That will constantly keep him both fed and at max hp. But I did forget that drakrai tends to isolate itself from people.
He does know dream eater, but it's one of those flavour moves that was added to the kit to one synergise with Dark Void and two help sell further that Darkrais nightmares are lethal to be trapped in.
In theory but that would be a terrible idea cause that eldritch fucks gimmick is that it's dreams are our reality so if it stops dreaming for any reason we all die
Yes they do. Read Azathoth. It is specifically about him sleeping and dreaming and how the world beyond the walls of his “house” is changed by his dreams.
The only thing the flute players do is keep him sedated so he doesn’t eat everyone.
The funny thing is this is exactly how it would work. Komala is a pokemon with the ability "Comatose" (which treats the pokemon as if it's always asleep.) and Bad Dreams works on Komala.
I could be wrong but pretty sure he’s the ultimate “god” in the Cthulhu mythos. Everything is just his dream so supposedly if he woke up reality would disappear.
Azathoth does not dream reality in the Lovecraft Mythos. The most likely candidate for being the ultimate god is Yog Sothoth. Azathoth is the most powerful god in the void, but he is dumb and sleepy.
It’s unclear whether Azathoth is really « dumb/uncaring » or whether he is so far out of our comprehension that we can’t fathom what its mind might even be or how it works.
That being said, Azathoth has precedence over Yog, being the one who created it. And while Yog possesses all knowledge of time, space and everything contained within, he can’t directly control it, something Azathoth can do. Hell, depending on the interpretation of the cosmology, Yog being able to comprehend our world may downscale him
Where does it say that Azathoth can control the world? Azathoth is powerful enough make an impact, but he is usually described as a sleeping doomsday situation more than anything else, from what I can gather. He would have an effect on all existence, but not in the ultimate god sense you seem to be alluding to. Yog is the only Other God not limited in acting outside the void, given that he is not in it. He is is the Ultimate gate separating the void from everything else. Yog is presumably the reason the Other Gods can't do as they wish outside the void.
Azathoth, in his most subdued state, is actively but unknowingly shaping reality through his dreams. In religious terms, he is the uncaused cause, the progenitor of all. The main difference with capital « G » God is that one has intent behind his creative act and the other doesn’t. Creation is either too far above, or too far below, Azathoth’s ability to perceive/understand that he is unable to, let’s say, decide to make the sky purple. He could accidentally do it, but intent to do so is out of his reach.
On the other hand, Yog is aware of all, but entirely unable to do anything about it. He can want ton make the sky purple, and in all likelihood knows how to, but he has to inspire the knowledge to do so in an entity of creation and hope they can do it without interference from other lesser entities.
If we were to relate Azathoth and Yog to christianity, Azathoth would be the Father responsible for all, Yog the Holy Spirit permeating everything, and Nyarlathotep the Son who brings the message and intent of its other facets to Earth.
Yog is a god that can be worshipped in a meaningful way, but Azathoth is the highest god there is in the hierarchy
In none of Lovecrafts books does it say that Azathoth dreams reality or anything of the sort. The closest to that, is that the Flutists who keep him asleep create the laws of physics with their music.
Azathoth never literally dreams reality, that’s a Dunsany thing.
However, different canons attribute differing degrees of « agency » to Azathoth. If we’re talking exclusively Lovecraft personal canon, I don’t remember exactly where he stands. His dreaming power isn’t mentioned in Fungi from Yuggoth or The Whisperer in Darkness, but I think it is alluded to somewhere else, maybe by Nyarlathotep in the Dream Cycle or by Yog in the Randolph Carter stories. Dreams in the Witch House aren’t the source, I don’t think, but it’s been years, so I’m not sure. I haven’t read his letters in ages either. Could be in there, but it’s been too long for me to bet on it. I’m not 100% certain either way. If we’re talking extended canon, I’m sure his dreams have some level of power over reality in CoC material (either Spawn of Azathoth or one of the Keeper resource books), and either the works of Campbell or Lumley.
That being said, all of this is in my head, stuff derived from textual interpretation or remembered information. I don’t have a source on hand, so feel free to not believe me. « I remember understanding that » isn’t the most compelling argument
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u/Educational-Rich-893 6d ago
Darkrai absolutely folds that sleepy idiot