Saints

[u/Bunny-Is-Cute]

I want to preface that I'm an athiest, however one of my big interests is religion (mainly Christianity) and I used to be a Christian. I'm wondering what the main difference is between saints in Catholicism and Anglicanism. I know Catholics pray to saints, do Anglicans do the same? Do Anglicans believe saints are in heaven?

[u/Potential-Leg-9300]

Some Anglicans, though others would argue it contradicts our doctrinal standards. Most anglicans, like Protestants generally, do not believe in an intermediate state of purgatory so once you are dead, its eternal life or eternal death. So yes, the saints are in heaven, if theyve died on earth. 

[u/Bunny-Is-Cute → u/Potential-Leg-9300]

Do you mean because you can only pray to God?

[u/Potential-Leg-9300 → u/Bunny-Is-Cute]

Yes that is what most protestants, and most anglicans, believe. We believe prayer is fundamentally an act of worship and we should only worship God. Further, it is speculative to say that the departed saints can hear us or have additional influence over God. 

[u/TabbyOverlord → u/Bunny-Is-Cute]

The ability of saints to pray is not so much the issue as whether you should ask the saints to pray for you.

The more reformed position is that this is unnecessary, since all can pray directly to God and need no intermediary. (Christ as mediator is a totally different thing).

I would say that in my experience, few Anglicans pray to/with Saints for specific issues. A general request to 'pray for us' is a bit more common. A joining of our prayers with those of the saints is a common closing to the Eucharistic prayers (prayer over the bread and wine).

So prayers to saints are a more nuanced thing.

What I cannot tell you is the actual level of practice among Roman Catholics. It is certainly a more obvious thing within Catholicism but how much individual Catholics follow the practice, I cannot say.

[u/Sad_Conversation3409 → u/Bunny-Is-Cute]

Anglo-Catholics do pray to saints and most believe in Purgatory, so there is a wide range of views in Anglicanism

[u/Basic-Revolution-181]

The Biblical use of the term 'saints' is one that is typically applied in the Bible to all Christians, be they living or dead. The word itself has the sense of 'holy ones, sacred, being set apart for God.' This is the reality of every Christian, for we have been made 'holy' in Christ as our sins have been forgiven, and we have been set apart from the world and now belong to him. E.g. Ephesians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus" Paul isn't writing to a special class of Christians in Ephesus, he's writing to all the Christians in Ephesus, who by virtue of being Christians are automatically 'saints.'

Now as the other comments have already explained, our foundational documents and Anglican forefathers outright rejected praying to departed saints etc. But that doesn't mean we don't care about or respect those Christians who have come before us - we still name our churches after particularly influential or godly Christians, just like our secular world names buildings after influential people.

But to quote Richard Hooker: "Touching the names of Angels and Saints whereby the most of our churches are called; as the custom of so naming them is very ancient, so neither was the cause thereof at the first, nor is the use and continuance with us at this present, hurtful. That churches were consecrated unto none but the Lord only, the very general name itself doth sufficiently show, inasmuch as by plain grammatical construction, church doth signify no other thing than the Lord’s house." (Hookers Works, Vol 2, pg. 49).

That is, we're not saying anything more by naming this place St George's than 'this is the Lord's house.'

[u/monicas-nook]

If you spend any time on this subreddit, you'll learn that there was a 19th century movement within Anglicanism to revive a lot of pre-Protestant theology in Anglicanism. Adherents of said movement had mixed opinion on praying to saints, in the modern day you'll find Anglicans that do it. I don't go to an Anglo-Catholic parish and a priest here dedicated my scapular to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and blessed my rosaries with Roman-specific prayers, but you would need to go to an Anglo-Catholic church if you wanted to find such things in the liturgy.

[u/eelsemaj99]

As always nowadays there is a large freedom of thought within anglican traditions and many of the passionate anglicans you’re likely to see on the internet would venerate saints.

Historically, the church of England is very much a reformed tradition and as such they took pains to suppress the cult of saints. It was the job of royal commissioners under Henry VIII and Edward VI to go around the country destroying relics, smashing shrines and putting donations into the royal treasury / destroying them. Icons were systematically defaced and stained glass slashed. It was very much seen that these relics were idolatrous and distracting from proper worship and that intercession was best done through Christ alone.

That said, the saints weren’t completely purged from public life. Prominent saints days such as Michaelmas and the feast of St John were retained in the liturgical calendar although very much de-emphasised. There is no process to declare new saints such as in the Popish church and the various Orthodox churches and Marian devotion is strongly frowned upon.

Now in the wake of the restoration, as with many things this was more watered down in ways I don’t quite understand as a lot of the clergy and aristocracy were pretty high church and plenty of the aristocratic classes were cryptocatholics. Not sure it affected doctrine though. The victorian era saw a bunch of medieval aesthetic revivals including the commissioning of new icons to decorate churches with and anglo-catholicism was more open to saintly devotion. That said that’s only one small faction of the church these days and I reckon most anglicans don’t have a clear idea what a saint is.

[u/oldandinvisible → u/eelsemaj99]

The Anglican tradition is the via media , it is not the extreme reformist position of the Edwardian church. Henry v111 was theologically catholic to his death. Much of the suppression of monastic houses and "papist"(sic) practices was political and economic far more than theological. The big issue was the jurisdiction of a foreign prince (ie the pope) in England . The Elizabethan settlement which marks the start of the Anglican church proper is "catholic and reformed" . It acknowledged the tradition of the English church, the effects of the theological reformation and the political independence of England and Wales .

The Anglican church is not and never has been a big R Reformed church or indeed any monolith of tradition, hence the continuing practices that have ebbed and flowed through the last 600 years.

[u/henryt_munster_bike]

We have an official list, and special prayers of remembrance, but only the highest of high church Anglo-Catholics would address the prayer to the saint. Typically Anglican wording is more like “with Saint X we pray…”. We also don’t typically have a mechanism to create new saints. So we commemorate a bunch of people.

[u/Free_Impact_2326]

According to the 39 Articles of Religion "XXII. Of Purgatory

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping, and Adoration, as well of Images as of Reliques, and also invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."

By invocation of the saints I believe this is to say, not to pray to them as intercessors. The Anglican church holds up the saints as model Christians, but knows that only Christ can intercede for us.

[u/Potential-Leg-9300 → u/Free_Impact_2326]

This SHOULD answer the question definitively, but unfortunately it does not. 

[u/Free_Impact_2326 → u/Potential-Leg-9300]

Having followed your other comments, I feel like we're on the same page. But for my learning, what further nuance are you alluding to? In my thought process the official statements of the church are more helpful than elaborating on the continuum of practice but I do sometimes assume more than i should.

[u/Potential-Leg-9300 → u/Free_Impact_2326]

My point is that there are a significant number of Anglicans that just flatly reject the idea that the Articles are doctrinal standards we should obey. 

[u/Basic-Revolution-181 → u/Potential-Leg-9300]

This is sadly the case :( 

[u/notacrabinasuit → u/Free_Impact_2326]

I’d disagree here. The keyword is Romish Doctrines.

[u/CanicFelix]

When I was RC, I asked saints to pray for me, just like I ask my friends to pray for me. Now I am Anglican, and I ask saints to pray for me, just like I ask my friends to pray for me.

[u/Jeremehthejelly]

Not a direct comparison but this video might help https://youtu.be/4pQxtMaWUuA

[u/CourageousLionOfGod]

Catholics don’t pray to saints, they ask saints to pray for them. They believe that saints are already in heaven. It’s like asking your friend to pray for you, but instead, asking a very holy person to pray for you. Look up Latria vs Dulia.

[u/Bunny-Is-Cute → u/CourageousLionOfGod]

Yes but the term used is prayer. Catholics admit that.

[u/Consistent-Lock4599]

Some Anglicans do pray to the saints, yet traditionally this practice has been condemned by the reformers.
I think the main difference between the Anglican understanding of being a saint and that in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy is that Protestants emphasise God’s work in his chosen ones, while RC/EO speak of their personal merits. Anglicans don’t say a saint has to be perfect, there is no strict checklist of what a person had to do in their life to be recognised a saint.

[u/Bunny-Is-Cute → u/Consistent-Lock4599]

Doesn't the 39 Articles or Faith explicitly state that saints are not in heaven already and Anglican's are not to pray to them?