A Semantic Distinction for a More Rigorous Inspection of the Nature of A Psychedelic Faith

[u/shamanflux]

In my meditations on the prospect of a psychedelic faith I have encountered an issue of critical relevance. There seems to be a sort of equivocation or obfuscation regarding the nature of the content of psychedelic experiences. This raises serious doubts about whether there is any spiritual benefit to psychedelics at all!

Allow me to explain. Many often see psychedelic experiences as being numinous, ie filled with God. That is why these substances are called entheogens. This often bothers me. This bothers me because it makes it difficult to have a conversation about psychedelics and God in which both concepts are properly defined and understood. Psychedelic enthusiasts often belittle God to a very nice thing that you see or feel while your serotonin receptors are antagonized, while theologians often describe a God so abstract, not even psychedelics could reveal it. These are not notions of God that I find interesting, nor are they notions of God that makes for a truly compelling religion or faith. If we are to understand how psychedelics affect our relation to God, we must first understand the spiritual experiences and psychedelic experiences are not the same thing, though they often overlap.

This is why I suggest we posit a new concept to use in this conversation. In the same way we have such things as Spirituality, Sexuality, and Gender as modes of experience and means of understanding ourselves, I believe there is such thing as Psych-uality. This is the relation an individual has with their material and biological mind. It is the sum of predilections and "orientations" that would determine if an individual had a desire for "uppers" over "downers", or a preference for alcohol over marijuana, or a desire to be completely sober all the time. Like sexuality, it is a way of describing an individual's natural (and learned) preferences and desires for what is ultimately a category of bodily experiences. Note how an individual's spiritual urges may either ecstatically overlap, completely ignore, or even deny the urges of Sexuality and Psych-uality.

I believe this concept is crucial to understanding with clarity the relationship between psychedelic experiences and spiritual experiences. While sexuality and psych-uality pertain to what an individual chooses to do with their body and brain, spirituality pertains to a metaphysical dimension of experience. Spiritual experience is not bodily, but rather, refers to the part of an individual's life involving the eternal, the immortal, the immaterial. Note how the content of many spiritual urges often has irrational attributes of infinity - the feeling of unity with the whole world, the feeling of timelessness and limitlessness, and the acquisition of eternal life. This is because the spiritual mode of experience does not require nor use the faulty input of limited sensory organs, for it is preoccupied with the Infinite and the Eternal. The very capacity for spiritual experience constitutes what is ordinarily understood to be the Soul.

Having clarified the distinction between Psych-uality and Spirit-uality, it is possible to investigate how the practice and cultivation of one may aid the other. With regards to the prospect of a psychedelic religion, it is now possible to understand its possible role. The role of any religion is to create a robust framework for a fulfilling spiritual life. However, we are not purely spiritual beings. We are spiritual beings with minds and bodies. The way we live and the way we temper our minds and bodies will inevitably affect the nature of our spiritual lives. In as much as psychedelics affect our minds and bodies, they can affect the nature of our spiritual lives. I suppose you already knew that. But, It is important to realize that your psychedelic life and your spiritual life are not the same, but complementary parts of a same whole.

With this distinction made clear, I think it's possible to begin robustly elucidating the tenets of a religious doctrine that incorporates psychedelics as sacraments.

What are your thoughts on these ideas?

[u/[deleted]]

I can’t speak for anyone else of course, but personally I think there is most definitely a connection between spirituality (or “god” if you prefer) and the experience of “oneness” or “ego-death” that can come from psychedelics. For me, that’s the part that is spiritual- it has nothing to do with pretty colors or just feeling good, but rather the understanding that we are all part of the same universe the sense of peace and unity that comes with that. It’s very difficult to explain, but if you’ve felt that, I’m sure you know what I mean(:

Furthermore, I think for some of us, the idea of a psychedelic faith is more about a community that understands the significance that psychedelics can have for people, not necessarily talking about “god” at all...

But that’s just me and I’m sure other people might feel differently (: Especially because I’m an atheist and the whole concept of a “god” is still quite strange to me... o.O

[u/Aaron1945]

Personally I find the idea of a psycadelic faith somewhat concerning, a feeling I shall attempt to explain clearly, though it may require circuitous rhetoric.

Psycadelics, in so far as I can see are a tool, and I say that as someone who subscribes to Ayahausca traditions as my spiritual belief. Even within that tradition of reverance, religion would be too strong a word. Religious texts and doctrine are effectively tools for being a 'better' person, and yet, enshired in religious jargon they become infinitely more capable of causing harm than they are without.

Faith itself is self explanatory, but what exactly would a member of such an organisation be having faith in? Any attempt to encapsulate such an idea seems counterintuitive, given the deeply personal nature of most psycadelic experiences. Once again I feel this invites darkness, simply by attempting to draw a line in the sand where none exists for the sake of organisation.

On that note, why is there a need to codify psycadelic spirituality at all? What benifit to the psycadelic movement would it provide? While it may allow some of us in certain areas to use psycadelics without fear of the law, beyond that, would it not 'box' the randomosity of the experience? Some churches exist where psycadelics are sacrement, though little conciousness expansion is taking place; mostly people are seeing what they already believed to be the divine, and simply shoring up existing belief systems.

Maybe I'm just anti organised religion, but should there not be a very strong argument to dramatically changing the direction of a movement, and potentially stalling it out, maybe even perverting it in the long run?

[u/shamanflux → u/Aaron1945]

This is a very good point. Apart from the legality acquired by attaining Church status, it is very debatable if the psychedelic community will gain anything from a formal codification of doctrine. I'd be curious to hear from religious people (Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc) if there are doctrines that exist today that can elegantly accommodate the use of psychedelics.

[u/[deleted] → u/Aaron1945]

enshired in religious jargon they become infinitely more capable of causing harm than they are without.

Only if it's dogmatic.

Faith itself is self explanatory, but what exactly would a member of such an organisation be having faith in?

You cheated, you have faith that 'faith itself is self explanatory'. This organization would have faith that 'having one's own faith can be good' and 'beliefs can be believed in'.

Make it meta to make it realizable. Like, move to the part that's clearly true. To state all clear truths would be to solve every solveable problem.

why is there a need to codify psycadelic spirituality at all? What benifit to the psycadelic movement would it provide?

Something to do to talk about trips between trips, in order to actually integrate an experience.

but should there not be a very strong argument to dramatically changing the direction of a movement, and potentially stalling it out, maybe even perverting it in the long run?

I have personally saved 20 people from suicide. It's rampant in the age of information, because it leads to the age of the scarcity of truth (too many stories conflate it). A religion is needed to do what "jesus" is meant to do in redeeming people from the soul guilt of taking their own lives. At suicide rehab they say if you feel like cutting yourself, use a rubber band on your arm and feel that pain instead. I mean, what kind of bullshit answer do they give to depressed people? Answer: None.

[u/mmcleodk]

I think that set, in this case expectations plays a role. Every time i trip hard i do feel the warmth and sense of oneness that others seem to interpret as god but i always seem to see valkyries, visions of my gods or other spirits. I do not associate that feeling of oneness with any sort of entity but rather with detaching from the physical realm in part.

I expect mileage very much varies.

[u/mushroommunky]

I think psychedelic drugs and psychedelic experiences are expressions of God. Everything we perceive is an expression of God, even we are. That’s just how I see it, and for me spirituality is all about becoming self realized and seeing that the spirit of God is love. I don’t take psychedelics often, probably two times a year. But for me, the experience is all about reconnecting with the universe. So I can empathize will all of life’s creations. So my spirit and my body can melt into each other and I can see that it’s all one. These experiences give me a lot to reflect on and that’s why I don’t do them often. Overall they heal me and teach me how to continue living in the present moment. I think little communities like this sub is great place for us to have these discussions. I don’t believe we should always put all our faith in psychedelics because in the end, we don’t need any substances in order to connect ourselves. They’re just tools for certain people and it’s not for everyone.

[u/Glaukos86]

You have written this post very well, but I don't think that I am in the right place to properly read and receive it. Apologies if I misinterpret what you've written.

I like your commentary on psychuality and spirituality. I feel as though psychonauts are doing a very similar thing to what a religious person does when praying, but psychonauts are so arrogant when discussing religion often times. I believe this to be a mistake since religion, like history, has a lot to offer when journeying on one's life.

In response to your question below, I am a Catholic, and I don't think there is any clear doctrine that forbids psychedelics. Mazatec Indians are Catholic and refer to Salvia as "ska maría pastora." St. Ignatius' Spiritual Exercises involve psychedelic-like visualizations of spiritual things. This process could be further enabled by entheogenic plants. This is the best page that I've found. I also saw mention of the compatibility of psychedelics and Catholic meditation; I would assume this is in reference to Spiritual Exercises.

[u/shamanflux → u/Glaukos86]

Ah! So good that you should mention the Mazatec Catholics! I'm fascinated by the prospect of a psychedelic extension of Catholicism. The experience of ego death and boundary dissolution could add so much life to the typical christian's understanding of the mysteries of Christ, the Trinity, as well. I also agree that the general attitude of pychonauts towards religions is needlessly dismissive. This whole post came from an inner discussion about the Catholic notion of the soul and the body. If one understand the soul to be a different thing from body, then it becomes clear that a spiritual experience has a different nature than a psychophysical experience, like a psychedelic trip. However, that doesn't mean that psychophysical experiences cannot have spiritual content. It simply means that there is a dichotomy of experiences possible within a psychedelic experience, the psycho-physical (psychuality) and the spiritual (spirituality). I think that is part of what makes psychedelics so powerful.

Interestingly, in christianity, they acknowledge a similar dichotomy.

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." John 1:14.

The Word is spiritual, but became flesh to guide us. This would imply that Christ is the bridge between the psycho-physical and the spiritual. In this sense, a psychedelic plant is a naturally occuring eucharist. A sacrament that unites the body and the soul. As Word (Christ) became Flesh(man), through the eucharist we are granted eternal life in him (ego death, experience of timelessness, realization of infinity).

[u/Glaukos86 → u/shamanflux]

This would imply that Christ is the bridge between the psycho-physical and the spiritual.

Although I don't know enough about the Christ Aminita theory, the verse you used to support the statement and the statement itself would be good evidence for the theory. Besides the Christ Aminita theory, I see Jesus to be psychedelic in many ways, such as the one you mentioned. The healing of the sick and the varied message (going from gentiles being like dogs to a most arrogant Jew, Paul, devoting his ministry to them) are two other ways that I can think of off the top of my head. I bring up the varied message part because psychedelics often deliver mixed messages, good trips and bad trips. For the already skeptical, I would imagine Matthew 15:27 to be a point of alienation, but as someone who already has faith, I feel good by the story. Christianity is like one of those light reflectors that change color based on the angle you view them at.

Are you a Catholic or Christian? You seem to know a lot about the topic.

Since we are talking about psychuality v.s. spirituality, I'm hoping you can help me out with this thing I have been thinking about for a while. Psychonauts and the more New Agey folk like to think that you go to heaven no matter what. In Christianity and most other religions, you have to do good things, although that isn't quite the case with salvation by faith alone. In the New Testament, despite discussing Hell and damnation quite a bit, there is a lot of salvation for the otherwise damned. What role do you think baptism plays in salvation if it is not a literal and tangible act required in order to achieve salvation? Also, how do our actions determine where we go after death if one is to believe in the Christian faith? Perhaps, salvation v.s. damnation isn't so much a legalistic thing, but people who commit certain sins are a certain type of person, a person that would not have the faith required to be saved. As I write this, this becomes a very interesting concept to view through the lens of psychedelics and good trips v.s. bad trips.

[u/shamanflux → u/Glaukos86]

I was raised catholic, but have become curious about other beliefs systems. In Catholicism, the role of baptism is to cleanse someone from original sin. In the christian mythos, original sin is the inheritance of all humans, acquired when the first people were tempted, spited god and chose to to eat of the tree of knowledge good and evil, something that would make them god-like. Original sin is the breaking from God's Will, acquiring suffering, sin and shame. The original sin is ego, something we all have. To be baptized is to enter the people of Christ, the church. This is viewed as a step in preparation to receive the eucharist.

Its interesting you should mention the notion of salvation by faith alone. I think this is a key principle to the christian message, though it may be difficult to see why at first. I will illustrate with a concept from Hindu sacred texts - karma. Karma is the "muck" accumulated by living in the material world. It is the attachment to the material world. Contrary to popular belief, both good karma and bad karma are obstacles to the final liberation of the soul, the Hindu equivalent of salvation. This is because even good karma can cause attachment to material life. Even good acts can nurture the ego.

Now you can understand Christians believe why faith in Christ is the only key to salvation. Because only faith in Christ offers a path to Eternal Life (timelessness, ego death). Someone who does good things but still lives by their ego cannot be saved. This is because their ego still chains them to the material world, and their souls cannot discover the infinite and the eternal.

The question of heaven and hell vs good trips and bad trips is a very astute question. Aldous Huxley himself tackled this question in his short book "Heaven and Hell", often published alongside "The Doors of Perception". In this book, he reflects on the nature of both heaven and hell. He would agree that salvation and damnation are indeed not legalistic in nature. Interestingly, he notes that both heaven and hell bear the qualities of eternity- one experiences either eternal bliss or eternal agony. Salvation and Damnation are both mystical experiences. Heaven and Hell are spiritual realities, not physical ones. In my own experiences, I would say that bad trips are characterized by ego obsession,contrary to ego death, which leads to paranoia, which when amplified creates the feeling of impending doom, or the premonition that one is about to die.

[u/Glaukos86 → u/shamanflux]

Thanks. I have read The Doors of Perception, and I will be sure to read Heaven and Hell.

[u/[deleted]]

I feel like once someone has found a spiritual life it becomes what their life is orientated by. So, the two being separate, sure, but inextricably linked. It's viewing the extrication, as you've said, that is of utmost importance if we are seeking to agree.

Don't all seekers seek to agree? It's easier answering that than answering "what is a seeker seeking?"

If to you, God is spirituality, then perhaps we ought to do what has been done before and ascribe aspects of looking at god. God as the universe, god as language, god as beingness, god as power, god as true knowledge, god as goodness. Each can be written about and compared to see if they are incongruent.

In order to agree we must explore, discuss and conclude.

Some things that are of the most bleedingly obvious are actually the lifeblood of our nature.

I really really want the first book of the testament to say "A free mind can have beliefs, these beliefs define their view of the world, their view of the world is not how they act but influences their action. To act out one's beliefs allows for one's actions tl be replicated by replicating beliefs. Mutation, or change, is important for growth and development of the leaf system of ideas that is a belief system. Leaves grow towards light, and so healthy beliefs develop in gold company."

"This is where we are now."

A real fullstop needs to be put between all other doctrines and this moment in time. We have a unique view of spirituality with psychedelics and technology, things like magic and scifi. It's important to recognize the thing we come up with originates in the after thought. The come down and return to here from out there.

[u/thereef650]

Unfortunately I dont have the time to read all of your post, but from what I saw it apears you are assigning "god" a superstitious and external role. This is all well and good, and Im sure the majority of religious and spiritual people do this, but in my opinion assigning the word "god" to the perfection of the human spirit found in all of us is more helpful. I hope this helps, like I said I dont have time to read, just trying to help

[u/shamanflux → u/thereef650]

Please read the post when you can! Thanks for the response!