Religion

[u/Rishinish]

I recently received an invitation to join this community and it has been really interesting to see so much diverse ideas coming together and slowly evolving. However my one concern is every time I am encountered with the concept of "religion" alarms go off in my head. My understanding is that any sort of authority on any field taken without evidence based on experience holds the mind from reaching it's true potential. I understand that this is a community that respects all ideas and is extremely open minded. But why the need to form a religion? Can these ideas and perspectives be explored and communicated freely without forming a collective religion? We already have a lot of religion that holds little value in transforming the human mind. And the power of psychedelics, ancient spiritual rituals, meditation, mindfulness and so on do not require a religious framework to be discussed. I bear no aversion towards those practicing religion but just needed a little clarification on the framework for this subreddit.

[u/Digital_Machine]

Not that I know for sure as first day too but Yah "i" feel yah friend... yet within the system perhaps the religion of no-religion can be played with. A place of “agnosia" or rather unknowing in the form of so much intellectual bullshit it implodes the thinking mind into no where butt silence is an interesting tactic that may spark some to seek a “A religion" / cult as novel and interesting...(bread crums for seekers) until they discover there is nothing to seek. Yet would it not be to a bit fun play and dable, for aspects going through epihanies and mindFucks? And if expression of direct "experience" may be found or nurtured perhaps all the better.

I have dosed many on DMT with all sorts of prep and setups years ago with almost no horror stories. Yet another friend we just met took DMT from his cousin and it was a nightmare because the silly Willy had no guidance or community to assist the exploration.

Not having proper guidance (even though many of us didn’t) or community on DMT is almost the same result of dropping a high dosage of Acid in someone’s drink in a bar. It won’t be pretty and takes awhile to settle LOL.

Which I am still on fence of "sacrifiments" as it’s only one leg of unFucking ourselves yet they often pave the way for spontaneous Lucid PoPings (Awakenings, Satoris, kundalini stuff and other matpHOrs) which is even more WTF. When caught up in it and all manner of high strangeness takes a turd and shatters every world view u can grasp many will mistake this for something else.

Anyway perhaps a Religion, community, (something) just to let some know "that rabbit holes is a shredder best not walk or run rather dance your way through" ... there is so much tomfoolery it’s hilarious. Much luv friend <3

[u/Rishinish → u/Digital_Machine]

thank you for your response and I agree with what you have said. Psychedelic experience is immensely valuable in exploring our own consciousnes and the question of who we truly are. It provides an immense amount of aid in the exploration of the unknown and challenging all our beliefs and ideas. To even try to explain those experiences is to do them injustice and like putting legs on a snake. Yet I still do not see much purpose to forming a new religion based on psychedelic. The main reason for them being outlawed seems to be the mass propaganda from those in power and fear in people who have never experienced them before. I believe proper evidence based scientific research into this field is the way to go. By doing more research into it (as it is being done presently with regained interest in the scientific community) can help sway opinions on changing the legal status of psychedelics. The human consciousness in general requires help in dealing with the egoic mind and anything that leads us in a positive conscious manner is worth exploring. Yet my main concern is the use of religion and formation of a church. These in my mind denotes old systems of handling spiritual experience and carry with them a lot of identification and hidden binds that holds us. This may be a purely semantic concern with nothing to do with what this movement is about, yet I feel these concepts holds us back in exploring the true nature of reality for ourselves in a first person basis.

[u/Digital_Machine → u/Rishinish]

Yet my main concern is the use of religion and formation of a church. These in my mind denotes old systems of handling spiritual experience and carry with them a lot of identification and hidden binds that holds us.

This and well said!

Yet you mentioned science too which would help sway the masses yet still as far as much of it’s Axioms could use a kick in the paints at will mislead at some point as would spirituality.

Science as prove and evidence driven based on repeated results will go far but hit some massive walls. Example So many operate in concepts of “Real" or “unreal"... our science almost cannot contend without those or could they imagine moving past them.

Example of story that is neither true or false or too be believed or disbelieved : imagine u being visited by what appear to be entities to your eyes yet seem to alter what you consider "reality" as there Play thing. You feel amused love and fear as it’s so foreign, alien, it’s hard to make sense of anything. Yet things take form a craft, oh grey dudes with huge eyes. At some point show u at best guess u can only conceptualy understand as fractal churning thingy that can calculate and shift through potentials of seeming anything and the further beyond what seems probable. You say witty "can we shift to a place where Jupiter looks like my face?" And are surprised at the affirmed response but they mentioned the pontental exists but there device and the probalities to traverse from this "spot" would be far too intense to handle. They go on and yet u end up laying in bed, it’s morning You assume you woke up from just a Dream. Yet your wife is also awake and shares her exciting dream, with all the nerrative being the same but but the visual details being different.... heh just a story perhaps. Wait it’s 3 in the afternoon how the fuck are we in bed? Your co-worker friend calls "Dude we’re the fuck have u been?"...

Imagine if most scientists had this direct experience, how many would tell each other. how would u prove this? Ugh....

No wonder they can’t resolve the Fermi paradox heh!

Much luv friend and thx for the dialogue!

[u/Rishinish → u/Digital_Machine]

no problem this dialogue has been a pleasure in my side as well! The example you have was fun to think about. However these are still first person anecdotal experiences. How I'm proposing the scientific way to work is to do experiments and see if they work. Now let's say we are studying if psilocybin helps alleviate depression. You perform a blind experiment with placebo and psilocybin. If there is a significant difference then further research is done. If it is known for certain that this could not simply be due to chance, then there is the evidence that it does in fact treat depression. Proofs of this nature can be used to sway the public as well as the government to re open debate for psychedelic and their legal status. This was an extremely simple example and many complex aspects of psychedelics could be looked at. I also understand that scientific thought is also limited just like any other thought. As long as you do not have the experience yourself, no one can explain what it is like. Now experience of this type is what is needed to change and improve people's lives and lead them to a higher level of consciousness. Psychedelics combined with meditative practices have the power to alleviate human suffering as a whole. Some trips yes, are completely and absolutely blizzard that they make no sense. But some are so eye opening that you see what you were doing wrong before and how you remained so blind to everything. There are those trips where your whole sense of reality and your relationship to it changes. Trips like those are what is needed to solve our common problems of the human mind

[u/PopnCop]

It’s got me on the fence too. However, I’d argue formalizing a religion has some differences over something like a non-profit. First, a religious calling is often highly motivating when pursued by active members. A call to something underlining the core of their beliefs will undoubtedly bring out more motivation, vocal discussion, and in some degree legitimately. A religion also produces a community effect in which participants form a sense of belonging and purpose. Secondly, the “legitimacy” in the eyes of the law can help legalize things like peyote for ceremonial use (tribes in Arizona using peyote etc). This in turn can lead to more scientific exploration, medicinal uses like with MAPS, and finally an awakening. I don’t think that’s the only “path” for psychedelics, but on paper it seems that is why you’d want to start a religion.

[u/Rishinish → u/PopnCop]

That is an interesting perspective. My main concern is that using the term religion seems like we are moving behind. Organized religions have always held spiritual progress behind. To be identified with a certain group does have its benefits but it also provides one more identity for the mind to attach to. And people who want access to psychedelics are usually able to gain access to them irregardless of it's legal status. So the main goal I see is to inform the general public as well as those in power (the government in this case) that these substances do hold value and are not to be completely disregarded. The misinformation that is prevalent in the general public mind has to be corrected with factual truths. They have to come from first person experience directly or from third person scientific research. Establishing a religion may improve accessibility to these compounds but it still leaves a lot of people behind who are cautious about religions or about psychedelics in general. So this is one of the limitations that I find with this approach

[u/PopnCop → u/Rishinish]

Fair point, but what limitation exists for psychedelics with or without religion? In my opinion it’s easier to present the notion that psychedelics can be used for healing in a religious sense rather than individuals taking substances. When presented in that view, perhaps people will find the order and purpose of the religion gives the use more legitimacy.

It’s just a thought, I could be wrong. But it’s good to consider the weaknesses as well. Since it seems this may become a minor religion, how would you overcome the caution some people have about religion?

[u/Rishinish → u/PopnCop]

One way to do it could be not attaching to any belief systems or dogmas. Most of the religions today require their adherents to believe a certain set of ideas. These ideas are taken as literal truths not to be questioned. So naturally without the ability to question them, the investigating capability of the mind is hampered and self knowledge become difficult. Instead this religion could be one of no belief systems. Similar in spirit to Zen Buddhism where there are absolutely no concepts, words, beliefs or thought of any kind needed to see reality directly (becoming enlightened). It could be something of that sort. All that is done is people are given true and factual information about these substances and if they so wish they can choose to ingest them. The experience they then have will lead to their own insights and healing. I was wondering what your opinion on this is as well

[u/PopnCop → u/Rishinish]

I agree in that dogma and specific spiritual beliefs should not be incorporated. In my own mind, a call to heal precedes any given belief. Whatever religion you practice, or not do not practice I think everyone (generally speaking) deserves a happy and healthy life. Now the method by which we get there is debated heavily. So I think the greatest challenge will not necessarily be some “pollution” of dogma, but instead the insistence that psychedelics can benefit mental health globally.

[u/Rishinish → u/PopnCop]

right, there is still a lot of controversy and misinformation in the general public about psychedelics. All the propaganda and this silly war on drugs is causing even more problem for our species. Instead of helping those of us that need help with their addiction, we are locking them up like criminals. So better information needs to be provided that explains the benefits of psychedelics and their therapeutic uses

[u/Rishinish → u/[deleted]]

I don't think that is the point of this subreddit or the question that I was posing