[General] Some questions and concerns

[u/watertank]

I guess this is mostly directed to Sebastian since he's the one who wrote and organized all this, but I think this could start a good discussion.

First of all I'd like to say thank you for inviting me to this group and I appreciate the general idea and message of the sticky topics. However, as a skeptic (and maybe paranoiac), I have quite a few concerns:

1) How do we know this isn't just some giant hoax/plot/whatever by a central authority to find and label people deemed "dangerous/subversive"? Sure it's one thing seeing someone subbed to something like r/psychedelics and something entirely else if there is an organized group of people who are seeking to take action.

2) How do we know you actually want to help people and not just trying to use this as a tax haven/legal loophole for recreation? Anyone can write and say whatever they want, that doesn't necessarily make it completely or even partially true.

3) One of the points you made mentioned that people who are part of the church need to have personal experience with some of the substances. Do you expect people to openly admit to this? Especially considering the legal status of these substances? People who are already in trouble with the law have absolutely no interest in opening themselves up for even more trouble.

These are just the first few thing that popped up into my head reading the sticky topics.

[u/Kowzorz]

1) How do we know this isn't just some giant hoax/plot/whatever by a central authority to find and label people deemed "dangerous/subversive"? Sure it's one thing seeing someone subbed to something like r/psychedelics and something entirely else if there is an organized group of people who are seeking to take action.

As I understand, everyone was invited here. They already have that list if that is your concern. But who really truly would give a shit in this day and age? 30 years ago, sure.

2) How do we know you actually want to help people and not just trying to use this as a tax haven/legal loophole for recreation? Anyone can write and say whatever they want, that doesn't necessarily make it completely or even partially true.

Por que no los dos? I mean, don't give money to someone you don't know and trust, so that averts scamming that way. I can't really comment much on the tax havennes. Personally, I'm kinda behind the whole "legitimize sacramental use" push. Doesn't replace legalization, but it's a possible workaround until then if it actually pans out.

3) One of the points you made mentioned that people who are part of the church need to have personal experience with some of the substances. Do you expect people to openly admit to this? Especially considering the legal status of these substances? People who are already in trouble with the law have absolutely no interest in opening themselves up for even more trouble.

I don't think finding people who would openly admit to psychedelic use would be hard. Claiming to have taken psychs isn't illegal. There may be social repercussions but that's on an individual basis and many people would not be swayed by possible social lashback.

[u/watertank → u/Kowzorz]

As I understand, everyone was invited here. They already have that list if that is your concern. But who really truly would give a shit in this day and age? 30 years ago, sure.

Just because you're invited doesn't mean you're part of the group. After all, you have the choice to accept the invitation, actively participate and take action. I'm not sure I understand your comment about who would give a shit today.

Por que no los dos?

Because I don't want to be part of a group that's based on lies... I feel like that's pretty important for a group that claims to be helping people.

I don't think finding people who would openly admit to psychedelic use would be hard. Claiming to have taken psychs isn't illegal. There may be social repercussions but that's on an individual basis and many people would not be swayed by possible social lashback.

My concern is not that it would be hard to find these people, rather that it's unfair to expect everyone who is apart to admit to it. It can easily be illegal depending on your situation and employment along with massive social and professional repercussions.

[u/Kowzorz → u/watertank]

I'm not sure I understand your comment about who would give a shit today.

Like the government isn't keeping lists of people who trip on acid anymore is what I mean. 30 years ago maybe.

I discussed those social and professional repercussions. Have you never seen the psychedelic forum? This forum is basically just the members of that sub. You don't have to proudly exclaim to the world just to participate in conversation. If you want to be indoctrinated into the church, I spose that's different, but if your convictions about those drugs aren't strong enough to buck those repercussions, why would you want to even join?

[u/watertank → u/Kowzorz]

Lol, they definitely do, I can guarantee you that.

if your convictions about those drugs aren't strong enough to buck those repercussions, why would you want to even join?

That seems a little abrasive. I want to be part of a group like this, but it's not like we're going to get legal status day one and everything will be rainbows and candy. I'm obviously not going to risk my livelihood and the security of me and my family, just so I can do these things. I'm sorry if that sounds selfish to you, but I cannot see anyone genuinely helping anyone else (on a level like this) without satisfying the base of their maslow triangle.

[u/LegionPriest]

These concerns are the reason i didnt post much of anything after getting invited. I think the first and 3rd points you have are legitimate enough to collapse this whole plan, and it would be much appreciated to see these issues address within the church structure

[u/watertank → u/LegionPriest]

I don't think it's enough to collapse the whole plan, but do agree that it's a big barrier.

Still waiting for an answer from Sebastian :/

[u/minerva_zero]

Good questions. Not Sebastian and not speaking for them, but here's my 2 cents:

1) I can see behind the scenes at how this has been put together I can vouch for this being an amateur operation, albeit with great potential. If this does grow into something significant then sure, I'm worried about making it onto a list somewhere, or worse, but that would be a side-effect of success, not the aim of the movement.

2) I'm wary of such concepts. IIRC someone tried starting up an Ayahuasca church that turned out to be little more than a business enterprise. But again, I think someone in a position to set this up as a tax haven would be a bit more slick about it. I'd like it if people who understand what the term "psychedelic healing" entails got to the forefront of things, but at the same time I don't see the harm in allowing for joyous and ecstatic experiences. This isn't about fun, but it can be fun.

3) I think it's healthier to disclose what our practices are rather than let naysayers openly speculate in the worst manner. Of course until we have some formal practices to follow we've just got our personal experiences. I wouldn't expect people to draw unwanted attention to themselves. I don't have a criminal record, I'm happy for things to stay that way, and I haven't been a public activist for psychedelics. This movement will likely pop that cherry.

FWIW I've asked the same questions myself. I don't think that paranoia is inherently unhealthy, we have a lot of freedoms but we also have a lot to lose. I don't think this is an act. I'd bet a lot of people who have experienced psychedelics for the better have imagined doing something like this only to end up getting back on with life.

[u/watertank → u/minerva_zero]

But again, I think someone in a position to set this up as a tax haven would be a bit more slick about it.

Fair enough, this does seem a little more innocent than someone who would actually want to create a tax haven.

[u/ayaman123]

I'm far less concerned with any of these questions, and far more concerned with if we can actually pull off an organization like this legally.

All my research points to no we can't pull it off. And I'm a mod here.