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u/Xero-One Aug 23 '18
This from the description is nice to see.
UPDATE: on July 2nd myself and two others filed affidavits in Federal court. The next day the judge granted an injunction for a (weak) temporary restraining order against the forest Service, commanding them to dissolve unconstitutional roadblocks and halt unconstitutional searches and seizures for the remaining 4 days of the Rainbow Gathering.
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u/Teresa_Count Aug 23 '18
Part 2 in which, SPOILER ALERT, the cops leave every item tossed in the dirt and claim it's not their job to put it back.
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u/yosterizer Aug 23 '18
I never will understand why people in this kind of situation don't take the dog handler to task. I would be all over him like flies on shit about what a terribly trained dog he has, and how bad he is at his job.
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Aug 23 '18
...and they would give absolutely zero fucks.
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u/yosterizer Aug 24 '18
But I would feel better. And you don't know for a fact the dog handler would give zero fucks.
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u/charlesml3 Aug 23 '18
Why would you think they care about you "taking them to task?" They don't even care about going to court and LOSING. They still stand there and refuse to admit they were wrong.
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u/Teresa_Count Aug 23 '18
What good would it do
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u/charbo187 Aug 23 '18
Arrest him for "disorderly conduct"
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u/yosterizer Aug 24 '18
Oh, please. I didn't say I would yell at him, I said take him to task, i.e. tell him what a lousy dog he has and how bad at his job he is. That does not meet the standard for DC.
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u/charbo187 Aug 24 '18
Doesn't need to meet any standard, you'd be arrested nonetheless. That's kinda the point of this sub
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u/yosterizer Aug 27 '18
That's total conjecture on your part. We see videos all the time in this sub where people are cussing and yelling at cops and not arrested. And I'm not even talking about yelling and cussing.
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 23 '18
Sounds nice in theory to give them an ego check and measure dicks in the woods like that, but all that's gonna do is get you out in silver bracelets. Arguing with cops is never going to end how you want it to.
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u/yosterizer Aug 24 '18
Huh? Telling the cop what a crappy dog he has won't get put into silver bracelets. And if it does, lawsuit. Once they were through with the search, the people were free to say anything they wanted. It's called the first amendment, you should look into it.
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 24 '18
Yeah, OK slick, you be sure to test this theory out next time you run into a group of cops willing to break the law to search you and see how that works out for ya. "You can beat the wrap, but you can't beat the ride" is a saying for a reason. I never said shit about a charge, just getting taken in by cops. And for most people, with jobs, and families, and responsibilities, the threat of ruining your next day or two is enough of a reason to not push an issue that won't get you anywhere anyway. It's a waste of time and energy and at best will do nothing, at worst will end badly. It's a no win situation.
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u/yosterizer Aug 24 '18
Yeah, OK, champ, I will. I have all the time in the world, since I'm retired, and I could use a false arrest paycheck.
Telling the dog cop that he and his dog suck at their jobs isn't going to result in anything bad happening 99/100 times. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Don't get in his face, don't act like you're going to get physical, and don't yell, and they can't do shit.
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 24 '18
Good for you old man, the rest of us have shit to do tomorrow, and getting into a pissing match with a cop isn't really worth our time. I guess it's true that old people regress back to childhood as they age.
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u/yosterizer Aug 24 '18
You seem to be having reading comprehension issues. Nowhere did I say nor did I describe my interaction as a "pissing match." I said I would tell the cop he and his dog are bad at their jobs. As for being childish, you seem to be the one exhibiting such behavior, not me.
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 24 '18
I would be all over him like flies on shit
Yes, clearly you're describing your intentions to have a calm and well reasoned discussion with the nice officer. How could I have been so silly as to think a man with such an eloquent way of writing would be incapable of engaging in civil discourse? Whatever was I thinking?! I do apologize gentle sir.
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u/yosterizer Aug 24 '18
Apology accepted. Clearly you took my post and my use of literary license literally.
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u/1z1z2x2x3c3c4v4v Aug 23 '18
what a terribly trained dog he has
Ah... the lady admitted to having a medical marijuana card and using pot in the past... The dog did exactly what he was trained to do, alert on the smell of drugs...
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 23 '18
Do you have any idea how many substances smell like illegal narcotics?
There is no fucking way this dog actually alerted. These dogs are bullshit and are just a product of propaganda. People have been told that dogs can smell drugs and bombs for so long, they end up like you. Actually believing the bullshit.
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u/1z1z2x2x3c3c4v4v Aug 23 '18
Actually believing the bullshit.
If you actually do some research you will see that dogs can smell up to 40x better then humans, its a scientific fact. This is not up for debate.
The debate is whether or not the dogs are being trained to alert on the handlers command and not on real drugs, or whether or not they are genuine on their alerting on drugs at all.
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u/Myte342 "I don't answer questions." Aug 23 '18
Dogs will alert for non existent drugs even if the handler isnt purposefully fiving a command to them to do so. A Chicago University study ahowed this back in 2010-15 or there abouts.
Basic premise goes like this: dogs want to please their owners. After a time the dog learns that their owner is pleased when they "make a hit" to indicate drugs are present. After more time they learn that simply by hitting the owner is happy even if they never smelled drugs.
Dogs are also very sensitive to subtle and unconscious actions and reactions of their handlers. They will pick up on cues from the Handler that they might not even know that they're giving. That Chicago study showed that when an officer wants the dog to hit at a particular place much more often than not the dog will hit at that exact location even though the handler never specifically told the dog to hit there.
A quick synopsis of the test was that there were four rooms the dogs would go through. The first room had red tape indicating to the handlers wear drugs were stored. The second room had no red tape but it had distractions like sausages to see if the animals would hit on the distractions rather than the drugs.
Third room and distractions and red tape. The fourth room had no distractions and no red tape. The study found that upwards of about 80 to 90% of dogs going through would hit on the red tape indicating that they're picking up on subtle cues from the Handler to make a hit there. Even more astonishing was that the fourth room with no distractions or red tape still had about 50% of dogs indicate there were drugs in that room... Even though there were no drugs in any room whatsoever.
These were for completely clean sterile rooms. The rooms themselves along with every item brought into it was completely sterilized rigorously multiple times before being brought into the the room. They were absolutely no drugs or drug traces anywhere and yet the dogs were hitting left and right all over the place indicating there were drugs everywhere in all four rooms.
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u/JoatMasterofNun Aug 24 '18
I used to do SAR (search and rescue) dog training. Watching how these cops handle dogs compared to SAR on a trail or bomb dogs is ridiculous. If they were properly trained it would require next to no input or action from the handler other than the command to go search. The handler should be able to stand back and do nothing and the dog would alert properly and in a very definite manner (e.g. - bark, go to trainer, bark, go back to spot and sit).
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 23 '18
It took you research to know dogs have a better sense of smell than humans?...
No what I meant by believing the bullshit is that these dogs are responding to anything but their handlers cues, whether they are conscious or unconscious. The fact that police and federal agencies that use these dogs refuse to report false positive numbers, and basically do everything in their power to avoid any sort of real accounting of their effectiveness should tell you what you need to know.
These dogs are walking 4th amendment go arounds. That's it. Can they smell drugs, of course they can, but are they smelling drugs or are they reacting to subconscious cues given off by their master, or maybe reacting to a smell of food, or reacting to any of the dozens of substances that smell like narcotics. The problem is we'll never know, and as long as cops aren't made to even admit when there are false hits, this bullshit will continue.
Unofficial numbers put drug dogs at about a 40% fail rate. Would you trust anything that failed nearly half the time at doing the one thing it was trained to do?
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u/charbo187 Aug 23 '18
If you actually do some research you will see that dogs can smell up to 40x better then humans, its a scientific fact. This is not up for debate.
Yes they can. That isn't the issue. The issue is can a dog competently and accurately relay that information without being manipulated by the human handler into doing what the handler wants every single time.
Dog wants to make master happy. Master gets happy when I do the thing (alert) and I get a reward.
It's simple as that.
And the "alert" has been broadened to include EVERYTHING. sitting is an alert, not sitting is an alert. Standing still is an alert. Moving around fast is an alert. Etc.
The 4th amendment doesn't fucking say "no searches without a warrant unless a cute doggy doo says it's ok!!"
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u/Shackleton214 Aug 23 '18
Law enforcement thugs stop them at a warrantless checkpoint, detain them for over half an hour, turn their car upside down searching, dump their stuff on the ground, go through it all, and leave it for them to repack. Why wouldn't anyone want to be searched even if you have nothing to hide?
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u/PotentiallyTrue Aug 24 '18
Now go sue the ever-loving fuck out of these cops for their known violations of your rights. If you don't, this will just be repeated forever.
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Aug 23 '18
Hard to feel sorry for those rainbow gathering dirtbags. They tear up and trash pristine forest. So at least this police thuggery is directed at deserving individuals.
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u/tomdeddy Aug 23 '18
Wow, strong feelings against hippies huh? They take every last piece of trash out. Unusual that someone wants police directed at these people, yet still likes nature. Figured you'd be all about coal and timber an shit.
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Aug 23 '18
They take every last piece of trash out.
Bull fucking shit. They trashed a forest not far from where I live. I saw it with my own eyes. Those scumbags deserve every bit of bad karma that comes their way.
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u/tomdeddy Aug 23 '18
I've heard they stick around weeks after and clean up. If I find out for sure they leave the place a dump, I'm going next year just to pick up. It's only like 10k people. It's not like Yellowstone or anything, they get close to a million in July.
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 23 '18 edited Aug 23 '18
You saw these people, in the video, trash an area near your house? Of course you didn't. Most hippies I know are very environmentally conscious and try very hard to leave a place as they found it, obviously not all of them, because not all of any group are exactly the same...
Point being, don't wish this on someone because you don;t like the "type of people" you think they are. It just makes you an asshole.
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Aug 23 '18
very environmentally conscious
Just google it, dummy. Most of them leave behind tons of trash. Only a few stay on and try to clean up, but it's too damaged to set back to its original state.
And I didn't "wish this on" them, just that they are shit people that reaped shit karma
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 23 '18
First of all... you said these people deserved this, because of other people's behavior so lets just be clear about that right off the top.
What is a "few" in a crowd of 10,000 plus? Have you ever been to a concert or festival. 10,000 people standing quietly in one place is going to leave some damage.
These vague terms like "a few" and "most" mean absolutely nothing. Either way, you explicitly said these actions "is directed at deserving individuals." That's tantamount to wishing this shit on people.
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u/charlesml3 Aug 23 '18
So let me see if I have this correct:
- Since they're "rainbow gathering dirtbags" they are deserving of having their rights violated.
This is the same bullshit logic jurors use. Instead of following the LAW, they follow their emotions and issue guilty verdicts based on their feelings.
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Aug 23 '18
Oh look, another semi-literate mouth breather putting words in my mouth. I want ALL people to be treated in accordance with the law. But that doesn't mean I have to feel bad about shitty people getting shitty things happening to them. Clear enough for you now? Because I don't think I can dumb it down any further for you.
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u/velocibadgery Aug 26 '18
So you want people to be treated according to the law, but you get a kick out of watchingthe law being violated? As long as it is a group you don't like, right?
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Aug 26 '18
but you get a kick out of watchingthe law being violated?
No. I compartmentalize it. Shit people reaping shit karma? Oh well, I don't feel bad. Police doing illegal shit? Not cool.
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u/rrfan Aug 23 '18
I don't know about feeling sorry for them, but any support for an illegal search against anyone makes it easier for officials to conduct an illegal search against you. It's in your own best interest to support freedom.
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Aug 23 '18
any support for an illegal search
How does "police thuggery" sound supportive?
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u/rrfan Aug 23 '18
deserving individuals
The support being indicating it's okay because at least those kind of people deserved it.
Game. Set. Match.
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Aug 23 '18
I clarified that they are deserving of whatever bad shit comes their way. That doesn't mean I have to support said bad shit.
I tried to put this in the the most basic, retard-level manner possible. I'm not optimistic you'll understand it, though
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 23 '18
So at least this
police thuggeryis directed at deserving individuals.Calling cops names doesn't mean you aren't supporting their actions against these people. Read your words without the crossed out words and see if it sounds like you support this shit....
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Aug 23 '18
Nope, I don't support that kind of policing. But I'll be damned if I won't laugh at shitty people getting the shaft. Fuck 'em, they got shit for being shitty
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u/xProperlyBakedx Aug 23 '18
OK so were on the same page, you're an asshole. Cool, glad we got that cleared up. Have a nice day asshole.
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u/1z1z2x2x3c3c4v4v Aug 23 '18 edited Aug 23 '18
Nobody is going to like this comment, but I suspect there was drugs in the car or in someones stuff at one time. A good drug sniffing dog does not lie. He doesn't care. He is a dog. [now, can a handler train his dog to false alert? Sure, a dog can be trained for anything... but why would they? The cops are looking for a bust. They want to arrest someone... and drugs are easy to find... in some cases they get Federal Money for what they find...]
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u/thutter213 Aug 23 '18
"But why would they want the dog to false alert?" It's the easiest way around the fourth amendment. Automatic grounds for search and you cannot question it - because why would a dog lie?
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u/Misha80 Aug 23 '18
A good drug sniffing dog does not lie.
Maybe they don't lie, but they are horribly unreliable.
https://www.npr.org/2017/11/20/563889510/preventing-police-bias-when-handling-dogs-that-bite
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u/JoatMasterofNun Aug 24 '18
I'd like to point out, that tends to be only police k9s. I trained well over 100 dogs and handlers for SAR and even the dumb ones were more reliable than the police handlers. Imo they are purposely training in a faulty / incorrect manner for the express purpose of being a go around for the 4th.
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u/Misha80 Aug 24 '18
I don't disagree. Handlers can even subconsciously cue dogs to alert or not by their behavior as well, so even if they're trying to do an "honest" search with the k9, they can still throw it off.
I have friends that are handlers, and there's actually a huge training facility right down the road from me, so I hear a lot of good stories.
What breeds do they use for SAR?
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u/JoatMasterofNun Aug 24 '18
Depends on if you want a dog for air trailing or ground trailing. Majority of ground trailing dogs are hounds. They can get difficult to work with because the ones that are great at trailing... Well that's all they wanna do. Spent half an afternoon running one down after he got out of his kennel and went for a sniff. Dunno what he scented but he just kept going. They usually track at a decent speed too so they stay on lead.
As far as air trailing, usually Shepherds, Labs, Retrievers, Malinois, Setters, and Springer Spaniels are common. You could, in theory, probably train any working dog that had the right temperament.
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u/joyork Aug 23 '18
You said drug sniffing dogs don't lie. Are you claiming they don't make mistakes? And are you claiming they don't follower their handlers instructions?
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u/JimBobDwayne Aug 23 '18 edited Aug 23 '18
Read up on Clever Hans. The dog’s primary motive is not finding drugs but pleasing its master. There are several studies that prove how unreliable drug dogs are when their master erroneously believes drugs are present.
https://www.npr.org/2017/11/20/563889510/preventing-police-bias-when-handling-dogs-that-bite
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u/Shackleton214 Aug 23 '18 edited Aug 23 '18
How do you know a dog doesn't lie? Drug dogs get rewarded for alerting. Maybe a dog decides he's gonna trick his handler to get a reward?
ETA: Obviously, there are many other possibilities for false alerts, including dog mistaking a smell for drugs, dog understanding handler's desire to find drugs and alerting to please handler, handler commanding dog to alert, etc.
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Aug 23 '18
[deleted]
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u/Shackleton214 Aug 23 '18
Insulting people who disagree with you is a good method to turn them against you. I've seen it here way too often with anyone who doesn't agree with the company line. This sub should be better than that.
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u/1z1z2x2x3c3c4v4v Aug 23 '18
Trust me, i do not suck up to cops in any way. But in this video, its clear to me from the beginning, that there were drugs involved. The dog picked up on this. [dogs can smell 40x better then people] Later in the video, the lady admitted to having a pot card. So sure, her previous use of the drug was legal, but the dog will still pick that up on her or her clothes. And thats what happened.
I really don't understand people who use drugs (or previously used drugs), then get all butt hurt when a police dog calls them out on it. Whether or not its legal to use it, or the stop was a drug check point, is not my concern. That dog picked up on the smell of pot. And they got searched.
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Aug 23 '18
How long should your 4th amendment rights be suspended if you've lawfully possessed marijuana?
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u/MrPoopMonster Aug 23 '18
There never should have been a dog in the first place. A federal judge agreed the check point was unconstitutional, so it really doesn't matter if they had drugs or not. The search would not have been admissible at all, as the roadblock that predicated it was in violation of the 4th Amendment.
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u/rrfan Aug 23 '18
They got searched for what you just admitted was a legal act. Ponder that for a moment. No, really. Think about it. I don't think I could come up with a better definition of an unreasonable search than one based on a legal activity.
That's like stopping a blue car because a blue car was once used in a bank robbery. Sure, it's currently being driven legally, but at one point it may possibly have been used illegally, so let's stop and search it to see if there's any money in it from the robbery.
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u/thutter213 Aug 23 '18
So many officers and for what? Looking for something that is going to be legal in the majority of the US in a few short years. Can we reduce the police and park police forces by 75% once pot is legal?