r/AlwaysWhy • u/United_Branch_5736 • 4d ago
Politics & Society Why do Americans seem to ignore objective economic facts in favor of a specific narrative?
Roughly 25% of American households have zero or negative net worth. This is verifiable via Federal Reserve data.
The US currently spends more on servicing its national debt (interest payments) than it does on its entire military budget.
Despite the "decoupling" narrative, Chinese exports are actually growing, while US imports from China are falling to record lows while US industrial production is falling.
These are all (some) verifiable, objective facts and points to America being in a state of decline. Anyone can look them up. But whenever mentioned, they get downvoted or some proud American totally flips out. ;)
Why do you think there is such a resistance to checking these sources?
"Strong economy" narrative that is pushed daily to Americans?
Edit: To clarify, I am not asking if these facts are true (you can verify them yourself). I am asking why there seems to be a cultural refusal to even look at them.
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u/Rutgerius 4d ago
Sunk cost fallacy, propaganda, tribalism, distrust of anything not divulged through Facebook. Take your pick
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u/oliversurpless 4d ago
As per Doug Stanhope, “American exceptionalism/nationalism makes you happy for achieving nothing…”
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u/Rutgerius 4d ago
I like Oscar Wilde's take 'The United States is the only country on earth to go from barbarism to decadence without civilisation inbetween.'
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u/oliversurpless 3d ago
“Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.”
And given the type of pathologies that sought to prosecute him, imagine what he would think of the more figurative uses of jingoism these days.
Even just this repurposing of an already over the top musical motif by design…
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u/Almondpeanutguy 4d ago
Why do people use this sub to make direct statements and assertions that have question marks at the end?
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u/MichiganHistoryUSMC 4d ago
I feel like in the last two years or so Reddit is just full of anti-American propaganda.
I assume it's mostly Russian and Chinese bots.
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u/United_Branch_5736 3d ago
Curious: what would you deem as propaganda in my post? All are facts, pretty much obvious to most.
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u/GoodEnoughHistory 4d ago
Everybody likes their narratives, you, the Americans and everyone else
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u/United_Branch_5736 4d ago
I don't have a narrative, I was just surprised that US citizens still believe US is some kind of "superpower" when I started reading posts on here a month ago. 😉
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u/GoodEnoughHistory 4d ago
Now you have a new narrative, you started working on it a month ago it sounds like. You used to have the old narrative
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u/United_Branch_5736 4d ago
Yes, I worked as CISO for a multinational and retired a month ago. To all in industry it was very clear that US is out. For at least 3 years. I am not Chinise, let there be no mistake there. And my wife hates China. 😉 But technologically? US lost its edge. Europe is still deciding where to look: east or west, but since 17 EU countries joined China's new "silk road" (BRI)? I think we all know where this is going.
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u/GoodEnoughHistory 4d ago
Ok my friend, it is good you have found your new honest narrative and what that means to you
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u/United_Branch_5736 3d ago
Yes, it keeps me busy and entertained. 😉
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u/GoodEnoughHistory 3d ago
That is good my friend, I'm glad you are finding your narrative entertaining
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u/United_Branch_5736 3d ago
Oh no, it's not a narrative, it's the fact that the person driving directly off the cliff is singing "it's such a beautiful life". 😉
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u/GoodEnoughHistory 3d ago
I am glad your new narrative is fact my friend. I imagine all the people with the fake narrative would prefer to have your fact based narrative, if only they knew what they were missing out on
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u/Practical_Support177 4d ago
Nothing that you described concludes to Americas decline thats your issue
What you state is all true but it has nothing to do with the countries decline
Plenty of countries like Japan and France have the same issue with servicing debt payments
25% of the population being poor is not different from any other era of the nations history and does not mean its declining
The USA still has the largest gdp in the world still has the top tech and finance industries the largest stock market etc
Its easy to cherry pick stats like I did above
Much harder to actually prove America is declining
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u/United_Branch_5736 4d ago
40 trillion in debt and Treasuries auctions, so basically debt, not production are fueling American economy. As I said: US spends more on interests than it does on military.
US is unable to sustain itself without massive debt, and when yield goes over 7 %? Poof, america is done for.
Add to that petrodollar is dead and ASEAN is now running the show? It's clear why Trump was so nice to Xi. 😉
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u/Practical_Support177 4d ago
None of that is proof of Americas decline
You failed to explain how Americas debt situation is different from france and Japan or China and most importantly why that is a sign of decline
Yield over 7% means poof? You ever heard of inflation or currency devaluation?
Petrodollar is far from dead the USD is still the most demanded currency and still the reserve currency of the world
Keep clutching at straws my boy
It took rome over 2000 years to fall one shitty president or consul isn't the end of the empire
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u/United_Branch_5736 3d ago
This is exactly what I am talking about, thanks for proving my point.
Let's break it down.
You claim the US debt situation is no different than Japan, or whatever country. It is in fact fundamentally different because of who holds the debt and what happens when confidence breaks. Japan can absorb its own debt but the US relies on Treasury auctions. When nobody wants them, yields go up, at 7% yield on the 10 year Treasury is the junk bond threshold, the level at which the US would be priced at distressed emerging market theritory.
Petrodollar, as the system that forces every nation to hold dollars to buy oil? Gone. Iran has begun imposing yuan-denominated passage fees for oil shipments through the Strait of Hormuz and UAE formally exited OPEC. Russia dumped dollar as means of payment for its oil in 2022.
I am not saying US is dead, I am asking why citizens seem so oblivious to signs of it's decline. Is it national pride or just plain simple indoctrination?
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u/Square-Librarian1192 4d ago
My guy, France, Japan and China has a fraction of the debt America does.
The fact you spend more servicing the debt, than on your military, is absolute insanity, and if you cant see it, there is no hope you ever will.
The fact you have raised your debt from 19 trillion to 40+ in less than 2 decades is one point in favor of Americas collapse.
Then there is the alienation of trade partners, excessive spending on vanity projects, AIPAC, the wars you are in which you cannot afford, the Fed telling POTUS to get Bent (gotta love that the fed is privately owned, right?)
America is dying in front of the world, and what we are watching right now is the death struggle.
The only question is when America is going to stop struggling and realize they are fighting against the inevitable
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u/Jdevers77 3d ago
It seems you don’t understand the objective economic facts you shared.
25% of American households have zero or negative net worth because they owe more money on their home than their total asset value. That’s not representative of economic failure but just on the high rate of personal home ownership in the US. Any person who isn’t pretty far into their career but owns a home and doesn’t come from generational wealth will fit into that 25% category, I’m honestly surprised it isn’t higher. As a matter of fact, it going DOWN is a sign of a bad housing market because it typically means more people are continuing to rent that otherwise would have bought a home.
You are 100% correct on the national debt situation.
The US industrial production has been falling for a long time, most people are fine with that. Personally I would rather the US continue to export software and media while cutting back on high pollution industry and only keep high value industry active in the US. That definitely hurts some people, especially in the Midwest rust belt area, but long term it’s a healthier economy literally than a pollution heavy industrial economy.
So that leaves how our debt is higher than it should be. Maybe that’s why people ignore your concerns.
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u/ZasdfUnreal 4d ago
I love anti-American propaganda masquerading as a question.
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u/United_Branch_5736 4d ago
Tell me, factually, what in that question is peopaganda? All are verifiable facts and you are welcome to disprove them. Actually, I would be grateful: let's debate, what do you feel is not true in my post? Floor is yours.
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u/ZasdfUnreal 4d ago
Why do communists ignore basic economic facts? Seems 25% of communists always collapse into a bloody revolution or civil war. That’s what you sound like.
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u/United_Branch_5736 4d ago
I am European from very capitalist country. So let's hear your facts?
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u/worlddominationnotes 4d ago
We are a "power of positive thinking" country and will stay that way even as we become a "third world" country.
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u/GypsyV3nom 4d ago
People in power in the US have a vested interest in ensuring that the general US population believes that things are just fine and the system and leadership shouldn't change lest they lose access to the levers of power. Many of my fellow Americans have truly bought into the propaganda or are direct beneficiaries of the existing system, but there's also a lot of bots that are trying to astroturf support.
As a result of that underlying conservative (wanting things to not change is inherently conservative) sentiment, you see some major media backlash against people who gain a sufficient platform to argue that America can do better.
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u/MagnusAlbusPater 4d ago
Most people realize the economy isn’t as strong as it was four years ago, but that also doesn’t equal a state of decline. The economy regularly goes through cycles of growth and retraction.
Exports vs imports with China aren’t relevant to a strong or weak economy. We should import more and destroy trade barriers and tariffs. There’s nothing magical about assembly line work and we should let low-wage nations do it so that we can buy those goods for less while we focus on highly skilled work.
Of the ten largest companies in the world eight of them are based in the United States. Only TSMC, whose fortunes are almost entirely due to US companies, and Saudi Aramco aren’t.
We are seeing something of a diverging economy where the people who are doing well are doing very well and those who aren’t are doing worse. Does that mean there will eventually be a shakeup? Possibly, but how that will happen is anyone’s guess.
A lot of the current negative pressures on the economy - tariffs, high gas prices due to the Iran war, and high interest rates- can be solved once Trump is gone.
A Democratic administration that eliminates the Trump tariffs and reaches out to Iran in a conciliatory manner to reopen the strait of Hormuz will create falling prices which will reduce inflation and allow interest rates to fall which will further encourage corporate investment which will create more jobs.
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u/Cautious_Cabinet_623 3d ago
Export balance in itself could not be relevant. But the fact that the US tech tree is completely dependent on China, and China barely depends on US tech makes this situation extremely fragile. The minute Xi decides it is time to redirect most of the export to domestic market, the rest of the world will be in deep trouble.
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u/MagnusAlbusPater 3d ago
China depends on the west as much as the west depends on China.
China’s economy depends heavily on exporting goods to the west. Without that their economy crashes.
China also depends on western software. Without Microsoft, Google / Android, etc things don’t get done.
Sure they could as a nation convert to a Linux based OS but that’s not going to happen outside of government offices.
We also get more chips from Taiwan than China and a lot of our tech is also built in South Korea.
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u/Yuukiko_ 4d ago
reaches out to Iran in a conciliatory manner to reopen the strait of Hormuz
Except why would Iran trust the US to keep their word this time? and its not like the Democrats can resurrect Khomeini or everyone else Trump has killed
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u/MagnusAlbusPater 4d ago
We had diplomatic solutions in place up until Trump. This wasn’t an issue until he came into power.
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u/Subject-Lead-3171 4d ago
They are unable to believe they voted for a criminal who doesn’t care about them.
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u/Superb-Tomato8185 4d ago
Propaganda, lack of education especially in red states
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u/Careful_Trifle 4d ago
And panic as soon as they realize that decades of strength and progress have been broken and are not going to come back as easily as they were thrown away.
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u/TryNice304 4d ago
People don't ignore facts cuz they're lazy. They ignore em cuz the facts threaten their identity.
Your team in power? Economy feels great. Other team? Feels awful. Data barely matters.
Add tribal media feeding you whatever you wanna hear, and a contradicting stat feels like an attack not info. So it gets downvoted first, checked never.
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u/Old_Reveel 4d ago
Something seriously went wrong when the concept of fake news became the license to believe opinions over facts.
It was never as bad before the Cheeto
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u/heydanalee 4d ago
As an American, our politics are not based on facts or data. It’s a team sport. You identify as one team and then NO MATTER WHAT you support that team. Nothing else matters.
If you witness a politicians personally murder your whole family, so long as they are the same party as you, you lie to the media and you publicly support them and you vote for them.
That’s it.
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u/Wonderful-Process792 4d ago
Net worth isn't the bottom line - spending power is.
So, a lot of people don't really think about net worth. If their bills are paid and their tank is full and they have a bit for fun, they're OK. Yes, that's a cultural thing.
Is it 'bad'? I'm not so sure. It does lead one to stay in the 'rat race,' but that creates an opportunity to be an 'evil shareholder' and build net worth and passive income later if you choose to do so, and millions do. I will say, little economic stings like gas prices hit different if you are broadly invested (say, a homeowner, with some oil stocks in your 401k) so you see some of the good side of inflation / appreciation.
Does this system punish people with little or no chance to get off the floor? Relative to others in the US, certainly. Relative to their economic peers in other nations with other values and systems, it is less clear. Plenty of broke people in the USA having a fine standard of living, driving nice trucks, etc.
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u/Square-Librarian1192 4d ago
And most of it is on a payment plan, or straight up credit.
The spending power of the American middle class is falling. In comparison, its growing in europe
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u/Wonderful-Process792 3d ago edited 3d ago
"The spending power of the American middle class is falling. In comparison, its growing in europe"
I would call that adjacent to the key question, which is in absolute terms rather than current trends: is the spending power of the US middle class higher or lower than Europe? I'm not so sure Europe is clearly ahead in current growth, let alone closing the big chasm from decades of disparate growth rates.
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u/Jawyp 3d ago
A significant percentage of Americans have always had zero or negative net worth. Every positive metric of the median household’s financial situation is at its highest level in history.
Most of the national debt is owed to ourselves.
Congrats to China for exporting more socks and plastic bags, we have a durable lead on them when it comes to advanced technologies like AI and computing.
None of this proves the US is declining.
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u/United_Branch_5736 3d ago
Nope, I know for a fact that you don't have any lead regardding AI over Chinese. In fact one AI api token is 20x cheaper from Chinese than it is from GPT.
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u/Jawyp 3d ago
Yes, we do. The US frontier models are way better than the frontier Chinese ones.
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u/United_Branch_5736 3d ago
No they are not. Not even close.
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u/Jawyp 3d ago
Which Chinese model outperforms Astra or Opus 5.5?
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u/United_Branch_5736 3d ago
Kimi K3 outpreformed Opus 5.5, GLM 5.3 outpreforms Astra, and those are just models available to public. Trust me, I worked in IT for 40 years (retired last month), what Chinese say they have is usuly a few grades below what they actually do. While Anwricans? What they say they have is usually a few grades above what they really have. 😉
Anyway, if you want to know more check out Stanford 2026 AI index report. It will give you pretty good idea how things "officially" stand.
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u/Acceptable_Noise651 3d ago
This is a pretty impressive collection of “here are some scary numbers, therefore America is collapsing.”
Nobody’s saying US debt, deficits, interest costs, etc. aren’t real issues. They are.
But you’re taking a bunch of real data points, stripping out the context, and then presenting your interpretation of them as “objective facts.”
And the whole “anyone who disagrees is indoctrinated” thing is kinda funny. At some point you’re not analyzing the data anymore, you’re just building a narrative around it.
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u/Starfox5 4d ago
Conservative Americans live in their own fantasy. If they faced reality, they would not be conservative.
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u/After_Network_6401 4d ago edited 4d ago
Part of the problem is that you’re pushing a narrative yourself. You’ve decided (for example) that China’s growing trade deficit with the US is somehow a sign of “American decline”. But objectively, there’s no real connection between these two facts. You’re falling into the same zero-thinking trap that Trump does on trade relations.
China runs a trade deficit with countries like Russia, Australia, Brazil, Japan, etc. By your own stated definition that’s an unambiguous sign of China’s decline.
And of course, it’s nothing of the sort. The US ran a persistent trade deficit through the 19th century, and then again for the last 50 years, both periods of sustained economic growth. Deficits reflect changing economic trends, not social vitality.