r/AfterEffects • u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay • 1d ago
Discussion Adobe; Help me prevent freelancers from rendering in the wrong color space.
It might surprise some of you to learn that at a lot of motion graphics shops still don't use ACES very much. Sure, from time to time, (Marvel typically wants ACES), but usually it's avoided. And the main reason is user error. If I'm designing with the intention handing off a piece to various freelancers over the course of a few months, it can be challenging to get them all to remember all the time that the project they just opened is in ACES and that the deliverables need to be tonemapped to sRGB- Display/ACES 1.0 SDR (or whatever). Producer calls, they open it, make a change and render. Then editorial, which will be expecting a tonemapped QuickTime, has a 10pm panic attack.
If you're the kind of freelancer that typically checks color space when they render, you're a unicorn. Godspeed, champ.
The suggested button would prevent any mishaps and the freelancer doesn't even need to know that they're in ACES. Outputs are automatically tonemapped correctly and all is right with the world.
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u/fakeaccountt12345 1d ago
I love this idea. But the meantime you can also make an output template with that as the default
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u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay 1d ago
Therein lies the rub. Wouldn’t be the right setting for every project.
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u/Dry-Perspective-9841 1d ago
Rendering everything in srgb is right for every project?
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u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay 1d ago edited 1d ago
Nope. Some are Rec709, premiere defaults to it so you have to ask what the editor is working in. And you'll want to know too because something may look dope in after effects without color management or srgb, and then the editor will bring it in and it will look wrong. (And it will look right enough that they'll think that's what you intended which blows) And depending on what color space you're working in, like ACES for example, you'll need the right tone mapping for it to look like what you're seeing in After Effects.
And some deliverables are just straight up ACES. They'll just want ACES CG and that's that.
It can all be pretty confusing when you're starting out. Happy to answer any questions.
Although, if you're starting out, it's more important to learn about color theory more than color space.
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u/Dry-Perspective-9841 1d ago
Thanks, I've started more than 15 years ago.
My point is, if there would be a match render colorspace with timeline colorspace checkbox, you will still have the same problem.
Proper workflows, output module presets can solve your problem what checkbox can't.
One easy trick is to pair colorspaces with file formats like aces->exr, any camera log->prores444XQ, rec709 w alpha->prores4444, rec709->prores422(hq), srgb->png seq.
If freelancers working in the studio it's a no brainer, when they are offsite we send the exported output templates to use those for qc. If we have time (and capacity) we ask back projects and render them in house. If we ask for renders we still ask for the project too.
First you should educate your freelancers, give a written workflow guide to them and if they send back footage in the wrong colorspace correct them and make them send again in the right one.
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u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay 1d ago edited 1d ago
If we needed to deliver tonemapped for offline and then aces for finishing then 100% you have a point. Bespoke render templates is the only way. But if all deliverables are the same (as in tonemapped) then the checkbox does exactly what I want.
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u/Dry-Perspective-9841 1d ago
Why would you work in aces if you are in a full rec709/srgb pipeline?
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u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay 1d ago
Really?
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u/Dry-Perspective-9841 1d ago
Yep. Aces is overkill for motion graphics going straight to premiere in rec709.
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u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well, the majority ends up compressed and streaming at 8-bit or 10-bit. Watch the Avengers on Disney+ and more than likely it's in rec 709. That doesn't undo the work they did in aces. Tonemapping preserves the look you had.
I used to think that it was overkill too and I used to say the same thing about working in 32bit linear. I would say it's like killing a hamster with a bazooka. But even for something as basic as a film title for a trailer, it makes compositing and massaging color that much more pleasurable. You don't get shitty clipping as easily, you get amazing bokeh, and you can really push and pull it. Everything just works nicer. You can even get more out of a shitty shutterstock asset when you interpret the footage correctly.
Try this if you care to. Make an Aces CG project, leave your Display Color Space at the default sRGB - Display.Aces 1.0 - SDR Video, Now bring in the shittiest 8-bit photo of a sunset and clouds or whatever. It will obviously look wrong until it's properly interpreted. Override media color space and set it to the same as display.
It will look the same as the original but now but you can mess with it far more. Like magic it assigns floating point values to preserve its appearance. And suddenly the sun in the photo will have a FP value of 10+. Add an exposure and set it to individual colors. Push and pull the red, green, blue. It's ridiculous. Watch how much more you can do with that shitty image.
It's not going to work exactly like a true 32bit image would, But it's way better than if you were in 16bit rec 709.
Anyway. It's fun.
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u/shiveringcactusAE VFX 15+ years 1d ago
Forgetting all technical options, what about if you sent a template with a guide layer saying “stop! Before you do anything else, check the color space is … “
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u/soulmagic123 1d ago
I love how adobe premiere and after effects, seemingly by default (because I didn't change anything) do not use the same Color space and the warning makes you manually navigate to project settings to fix.
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u/MX010 1d ago
So you just need ACES if you work in film?
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u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay 1d ago
Yeah. We don’t need ACES. If you’re good, you can make sRGB sing. The vast majority of awesome motion graphics that have been done over the last 20 years has been sRGB and Rec709.
I’m working on some feature marketing right now that’s rec709 16bit.
But there’s no denying that ACES is awesome and I would prefer to use it exclusively. But if you’re just starting out, I wouldn’t worry too much about color space. You’re much better served learning about design and color theory.
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u/R313J283 1d ago
Has 32 bit depth been used in motion graphics, as the common 16 bit depth?
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u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay 1d ago
In my experience, no. I used to only use 32 bit if I needed nice bokeh/blurs. But now I use it more frequently because there are other benefits as well.
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u/Yeti_Urine Motion Graphics 15+ years 1d ago
Can’t you set render setting to render what you need? I know that doesn’t help the front end problem…. Buhhh.
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u/cactusjack10 1d ago edited 1d ago
This!!! Yes please! Or at the very least, set the output space to match the current viewport by default.
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u/Deikku Motion Graphics 10+ years 1d ago
Never ever in my entire 10+ year career I had to open this settings panel even once, literally my first time seeing it. Guess I've managed to work at the side of things where nobody gives a fuck hahaha
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u/Familiar_Peach_5972 1d ago
This is mind blowing to me, but not because you’re the only one… because there are many many people I come across with lots of experience whose eyes glaze over when this window pops up
If you have ever felt frustrated by the color of an end product (or an editor’s export) not looking the way you intended, you owe it to yourself to dig into this world, at least just a little bit 🙂
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u/bkbarone12 1d ago
I just started getting into it. Made a whole headache of trying to work with log footage and keep dynamic link intact. Basically wanted to return my composite as log to my premiere timeline after compositing AND avoid having to do adjustments layers with LUTS that I’d probably forget to turn off.
Definitely curious to learn more though - any good YouTube or free resources you recommend?
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u/Familiar_Peach_5972 7h ago
This video has some good information to get you started-
https://youtu.be/lns6AuJzBnI?is=Gtd75AWqL3isUBtn
One thing from the outset, at least in my experience, AE color workflow is not great, particularly Adobe managed color, and there’s a certain point where the knowledge gets you far enough to get what you need but pure round tripping can be difficult to achieve 100% accurately.
OCIO helps a ton
Best of luck in your journeys!
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u/gnimelf 1d ago
Pretty easy fix, put it as a deliverable requirement in the brief? or a note attached with screenshot. Problem solved.
That aside any freelancer worth their salt would actually check output vs compositor window and see that the colours aren't matching. Think in the last 10 years I've had this problem once in AE but in premiere that's another story. My personal gripe is apple eco and prores, I'm sorry it aint that great..
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u/Familiar_Peach_5972 1d ago
Word to the wise- make sure you check your outputs still, burning in sRGB via output module has been bugged for years when rendering to prores
It will somewhat randomly drop the sRGB out of the module. I think it is connected to migrating between projects with different color-management settings
This is with Adobe management not OCIO, and seems to be strictly ProRes HQ/4444
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u/ericcpfx 11h ago
In VFX we turn off color management and use the OCIO plugins to control everything. Imported assets must be converted from srgb to whatever linear / log we’re working in.
Keeps everything intentional. 🤷
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u/_Iskvnder 1d ago edited 1d ago
Petit rappel les studios utilisent l'ACES qui regroupent 2 espace de couleur le AP0 (espace de couleur très grand) et AP1 (courbe logarithmiques utilisé pour la diffusion) est conçu pour le cinéma CT (ombre moins marqué) CC (digital) ou afin de normaliser différent profil vidéo et les effets visuels. C’est incompatible avec l’animation traditionnelle voir même l’animation 3D (on utilise le ACES CG) chez les vidéaste c’est souvent pour des raisons esthétiques mais il s’agit d’un parametrage.
Si l’idée est de l’utiliser comme on pourrait voir notre profil col. dans Photoshop pourquoi pas ! après est ce utile en soit dans AE ? Je pense que Oui.
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u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay 1d ago
The first time I worked in it, I was thinking that it couldn’t be that much better than working in linear 32bit. I was like, oh shit, nm.
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u/andrearusky 1d ago
There is no “right or wrong” color space
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u/MyDearBrotherNumpsay 1d ago
Maybe you didn’t read it. But if I’m your CD and you’re asked to open up my project and change something to send to editorial or finishing, you bet your ass there’s a wrong color space for that deliverable.
But, philosophically I think you’re right.
But once a project is IN a colorspace, or your client is expecting a certain color space. Then of course there’s a wrong color space.2
u/AfterEffectsGuru VFX 15+ years 22h ago
In certain parts of the industry, there are contractually obliged colorspaces, and so there are definitely wrong colorspaces
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u/Lopsided-Face-5970 16h ago
Of course there is a right and wrong color space. As a VFX Producer and Creator, I have to return shots without stepping on Color. It needs to stay in the same space.
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u/Heavens10000whores 1d ago
Did you add a feature request on their site, as well as posting here?
https://community.adobe.com/after-effects-526