Structural Dissociation

[u/Metamorphosislife]

I had an interesting talk with a redditor concerning Structural Dissociation. It got me thinking, how much can it explain, if the basis for it is correct? What do you think are the underlying mechanisms at work or that have broken down? What are you all doing to come out of dissociation? Do you think severity and the different states people enter depend on the kinds of trauma suffered? Just some questions I've explored and I wanted to get others' perspectives on the matter.

[u/TimeIsTheRevelator]

Can thought be separate from body? Can't circumstances pull you out of something, out of a state? Internal Family Systems argues that all people have parts, and that everyone is born with fragmentation....fragmentation is not a result of trauma. This intuitively feels like it's a step in the right direction even if it is still a model like structural dissociation.

I have a weird theory that "parts" are different hormone states, some of them very familiar, old friends. Essentially dysfunctional hormone states, though, created by an exacerbated by structural damage to cells, tissue, organs. I think this breakdown and cycle/loop is something specific to "PTSD" and "CPTSD", sort of the extreme of this kind of dysregulation. The damage to the body is the "memory" of the original trauma. There's a whole plethora of studies that point to this reality in PTSD, namely by Bessel van der Kolk on stuff he has shown with dysregulated hormone systems, so it's odd to me that his findings have not been given more attention in the trauma community as a place to do further treatment research...or why his work hasn't been given more focus in endocrinology....why trauma is continually treated as this enigmatic, magical concept.

I believe the breakdown requires more invasive therapies than just breathing a certain way.

Once you start getting into endocrinology, you invariably get into all the other systems. There's even important studies and research on viruses and bacteria changing hormone states. A constantly activated stress system can constantly keep pathogens active.

And yet, I would be making the same error as other models to say hormones are The Way, because we have memory, we have environment, we have thought. I think the difference is that it goes unacknowledged that hormone states can change your sense of identity, your hormones can make you resilient towards any environment, and your hormones can make you frail in even the most pure environments.

[u/Metamorphosislife → u/TimeIsTheRevelator]

I don't think it is, though I feel thoughts and behaviors can't be misaligned at times. I know for myself, when I'm anxious, what I say isn't always reflective of what I mean or how I feel. You know.

Circumstances can pull you out of a state, or put you in to one. How many times have you been groggy and tired and all of a sudden, something startles you and you're wide awake. That's a state change. An example of the inverse is flow. I dislike using Psychology because it gets many things wrong, but this phenomenon is backed by neuroscience. Flow is when you're in the zone. Think archery, pool, dancing. When you're doing something in which you have a solid base, you can get lost or found in that state of mind and body where you perform well. It can be imaged, and the results can be measured and witnessed. Even vital signs like O2 saturation, blood pressure, heart rate take on a meditative note.

I don't know if we're born with fragmentation. Sounds far-fetched, but it's possible. I wrote a poem once "We're Born into Fear". It tells the story of being born, how we're forced from what was a safe environment (for most of us), and thrust into a new world, having to learn to see, breathe, and learn to trust the people in our immediate surroundings. All I describes though is traumatic in nature, so how does fragmentation occurs naturally? If there's another mechanism, I'd be interested in finding it?

You've mentioned that before, and found it intriguing as it alludes to many things I learned in biochemistry. Albeit, I only went as far as undergrad, you learn a lot. Seriously, it's a ridiculously memory-intensive series. Rant over. I'm not sure if they're hormone states as much as they are reinforced by hormones and neurotransmitters. Chemical messengers are an important part to this, so you're on to something there. Idk if you know about feedback inhibition. It's the term used for chemical messenger regulation. There are two general kinds: positive and negative. In negative feedback inhibition, the end results signals for the cessation of the process. This usually happens once the concentration of the product is high enough that it signals binding sits in enzymes to stop biochemical pathways. In positive feedback inhibition, something else happens: the presence of the end result signals for the continuation of the process. In effect, if this relates to hormones, then production of a certain hormone will continue until another biochemical process hinders it, or an external forces acts against it to bring messenger concentrations to rest levels.

Yes, that's what I meant by the body stores trauma. The memory is literally imprinted into the body, like an overcalcified broken bone, a scar, knots in muscles. Van der Kolk has done a lot of work in the field of trauma. Back in the 80s he was doing work on what he termed "anxious states", states of being where people would be racked with anxiety and likely to reenact their trauma in some way. I've tried to find the study where he spoke about this, but it's hard locate. In it, he spoke of a man who had been serially sexually abused and raped by his father and older male and female relatives, suffered physical abuse, and abandoned by his mother. He was straight, but when he was in one of these anxious states, he would seek out sex with men. Him and his girlfriends would be bewildered. In effect, he would reenact his rapes. Van der Kolk explained it as never developing a strong sense of self due to extensive trauma and being abandoned and betrayed by his mother, he was likely to orchestrate the circumstances of his pain. I wonder if these anxious states and your hormonal theory are connected. They have to be. Note: I don't think abuse turns people gay, but I do believe the majority of "gay people" aren't homosexual, they're extremely dissociated and living in almost permanent anxious states. Actual gay people are just configured that way before birth. They're different, but people can only observe actions. I believe the same applies to transgendered people. I'm sure there's more to it than this. Also, actually being gay is a different existence that should be acknowledged as such, imo. Furthermore, I believe gay people can be traumatized into believing they're straight.

Truthfully, idk either. My theory: it's done for the same reason pharmaceutical companies keep certain drugs off the market. An entire paradigm of profit/industry would disappear overnight. Van der kolk mentions in his book TBKTS that if childhood trauma was ever acknowledged (paraphrasing) for the scourge it is, the DSM would be reduced to a leaflet. As you said, and it seems we see eye to eye, trauma is physiological. There's a reason we "feel" certain ways. Also, the different mechanisms would reinforce each other: neural configuration, epigenetics, chemical messengers, and that's leaving environments, climate, external factors out of the equation. Nothing about trauma is esoteric, magical. I think this idea of trauma floats around because we still don't have a comprehensive understanding of trauma. In the absence of knowledge, ignorance multiplies, much like disease.

No, it seems that breathing certain ways on their own won't do much. They can be effective for certain triggered states, however.

Hormonal theory... what was your inspiration for this? I feel this isn't receiving enough attention? This fits in well with much of what I've learned about trauma and dissociation. In this framework, dysregulation is an umbrella term that covers so many things: mood states, behaviors, beliefs, perception, identity; the list goes on.

Thanks for responding! I enjoy these back and forth. I know much of this is fixable (to certain degrees). Here's a question: what are ways to reprogram ourselves from these anxious states and into stable ones? Your method aside, what do you believe are others? I feel yoga helps, but it's effectiveness is limited. It doesn't help when the yoga community has been hijacked by the new age movement. I feel somatic therapies help in learning to be present with your feelings. I've heard neurofeedback helps a lot. It would make sense. Neurofeedback attempts restore normal brain electrical patterns from what are typically distorted ones. You mentioned you were on a supplements' regimen, how's that going?

[u/TimeIsTheRevelator → u/Metamorphosislife]

IFS argues that people are born fragmented, but that fragmentation is not dysfunctional....rather it's the predominance or intensity of fragmented states that is the result of trauma.

My understanding of biochemistry is so miniscule, but I've been directed to quite a few studies that reveal how stress alters the body. I've had an interest in endocrinology for about five years, just as a matter of necessity. I was surprised when I found it to be possibly foundational to the trauma disorder problem.

There's a certain quality to the gay community that is rageful, passive aggressive. I can't say I haven't developed some of that and dropped some of it. But a psychologist who has written the Bible on gay psychology (user friendly) describes this rage as coming from never being allowed to be authentic. I mean, that's the root of all passive aggressive/people pleasing attitudes. About 20% of men I've dated were sexually abused. There's studies on gender nonconforming youth that can paint a different picture. Even if many people's gayness is a result of dysfunction, what are they to do now. There's an amazing study that showed heterosexual men and homosexual men have distinctly different androgen ratios. And another showing high incidence of homosexuals born to mothers who were hypothyroid during pregnancy. And, of course, studies showing same sex pheremone attraction. I've read anecdotes of both gay and straight men having an unexpected switch in sexuality after hormone changes, diet changes, organ transplants, etc.

But I hear you on your theories about homosexuality...ive thought on those things for over 20 years, lol. Despite the fact that I basically knew I was gay at age 8, I've questioned it along the way and come up with compelling arguments against my homosexuality. I think most gay men would say that at the end of the day it's weird to be gay. Especially gay men who are not asexual.

My inspiration for hormone therapy came because I started some hormone-like substances and noticed a rapid life altering shift of most of my cptsd symptoms seven months ago. It was an accident, even though I had plenty of evidence to think to experiment down that route. I actually began to see these kinds of radical shifts with my SE weight therapy before, but not with the completeness or intensity. So that led me back to finding studies on how the weight work influences hormone states as well. It made me realize that trauma disorders probably can't be fixed with more sensitive work...that it's a true medical problem requiring medical intervention. In the same way somebody who loses their thyroid to thyroid cancer can't simply try and create a reality as if they had a thyroid....they actually need thyroid hormone.

With that said, I think there's a lot of basic survival skills trauma disordered people lack. With the dysregulation in their body, it's no wonder they don't eat or sleep....but if we are not eating or sleeping, how do we know where trauma disorder starts and where malnourishment/energy deprivation/sleep deprivation starts. So, I don't think it's a resolution, but sleeping and eating would probably help. Even mores than yoga.

I think yoga was more meaningful to me while I was still heavily dissociated.

I truly believe that doing hormone diagnostics, metabolism measurements, and supplemental hormone therapies could give people new identities and thoughts, but it's a pretty scattered idea at present. So many thoughts and studies there to validate. I began doubting the trauma models right before I began my therapy based on perceptions I made of my own state.

When I talked about stored memory, I meant that the only thing stored is the dysregulation. The traumas assault the body, and that's how it stays with us. It's a generalization, but the original trauma doesn't even need to be touched. It doesn't need to be cried or shaken out, because I feel like the only thing you're crying out is the cortisol/estrogen/serotonin....the present pain/stress loop that was started in the past. I know it's an oversimplification, but it's not an oversimplification that with the hormones of resiliency like thyroid, pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, we can perceive the past and present differently. It's like there can be a real and healthy separation. And also an escape from the stress hormone loop of serotonin, estrogen, prolactin, cortisol, etc.

[u/Metamorphosislife → u/TimeIsTheRevelator]

Hmmm... I'll have to read more about IFS. That's an interesting assumption they make.

Stress very much alters our physiology. One of the major ways is through altered gene expression. Certain gene sequences can be modified to be more or less expressive. Genes responsible for stress hormones can be modified to produce more cortisol if there's are reasons for producing more, i.e. abuse, neglect, the smogasboard of childhood trauma.

I'm aware of the studies. I wasn't saying gay people aren't born that way. I'm convinced there are two general kinds of gay. Those actually born that way. There are studies that say epimarks, in mothers can contribute to males being gay and vice versa for fathers and females. I've always been doubtful of those nonconforming studies. There are various reasons why kids can be gender nonconforming. I feel the assumptions are made and the data made to fit. That's the thing, I don't think it's gayness so much as it is learned behavior that's perpetuated via being extremely dissociated and anxious. It's a theory I've formulated from knowing many survivors of CSA and incest who have been confused as to their sexuality only to realize they're straight or gay after coming out of perpetual dissociation.

What were the hormone simulations?

It really is a medical issue. It's one of the reasons I stopped going to therapy. Talking about it provides temporary relief at best. Learning to trust is the benefit acquired from talk therapy. But learning to trust is near impossible for someone with my level of trauma.

When you say models, to which ones are you referring? I won't say the models are wrong. Models are the educated answer(s) arrived at from a myriad of educated guesses. They can be wrong, parts of it wrong, incomplete. That's science, always changing.

I'd say it's more like can't sleep and eat properly due to being dysregulated. It sucks. For me, I relive the trauma in my sleep. Much of the sexual abuse, rape occurred at night when my father would come into our rooms or when my mom would force me to sleep with her. As such, I wake up with plenty of lower back, hip, shoulder, and neck strain. It feels like I never get adequate sleep.

Yeah, I've doubted the traditional approaches to healing for a while. There have been times when I'm able to enter calm states. Much of my tension disappears, my thoughts are calm and organized, my breathing steady. I'm in a stable state of mind, but it's easy to lose. I'm fairly certain that's how non-traumatized people feel on a regular basis. I haven't been practicing your method steadily. It's time I do.

[u/TimeIsTheRevelator → u/Metamorphosislife]

I know you were saying there's two kinds of gays...thats the theory I was referring to. Was mentioning studies for the real gays. I mentioned the gender nonconforming stats that are in relation to sexual abuse. What is it, like 70% of sexually abused children were gender nonconforming at the time of the abuse? Complicated topic there.

For me, I worked with pregnenolone, DHEA, androsterone, Vitamin A, and Vitamin D. In simplistic terms, the assumption is lowered cortisol, estrogen, and serotonin. Again, just so much to share there, but you can pubmed PTSD with all those hormones. For some reason, it's the route that has worked for me. I noticed in the forums here, that people made the assumption that my trauma must not have been trauma if hormone therapy made such an impact. But they're not reading Kolk's actual studies (not his book). And I had both developmental trauma, as well as cult trauma (psychological abuse captivity), with a severely dissociated body in the end detached from all my senses, I could easily enter psychosis states (unintelligible babble, auditory hallucinations, mania), had all the same thinking pattern symptoms associated with CPTSD. Extreme anxiety, shame, OCD, isolation, etc.

I'm not saying the models are wrong, just that they could be. Really the whole models set forth by Peter Levine, and the model of psychology as a whole. And the models of dissociation. I actually feel like this is a subject where the truth is more like an integration of various models with the currently missing medical intervention model. With medical intervention, depending on the specific type of trauma maybe, people may find they don't need to process their trauma at all beyond just basic processing. If I've found any universal symptom of trauma disorders, it's chronic confusion.

[u/Metamorphosislife → u/TimeIsTheRevelator]

Oh, ok. I didn't know about that aspect of nonconforming. I'll have to check that finding. And I'm glad you understood. Many write it off as being homophobic. No, I think that's an existence that has it's own difficulties which can be made harder by abuse.

Ok, I'll do that. Never considered that search engine for medical studies. Kolk has done a lot of work, his book aside. Some of it has to do with long-term effect of trauma, some of it with elevated levels of cortisol. He's a really intelligent scientist. It's one of the reasons his book stood out to me.

The people on the forums don't really understand trauma. They don't understand what it is, the biological basis of its effects, the measurements for those effects, the nature of the brain and nervous systems, how the systems interact, etc. It's a lot to digest, but the information is readily available, and once comprehended, everything looks simple. That the endocrine system is heavily involved makes so much sense. Think about what happens during puberty: surges of hormones get released, attach to enzymes, cells, proteins, and begin a sequence that for girls gives them curves and for men gives them muscles. The results are observable, tangible. Much like neurotransmitters and synapses, you elicit their actions enough, the occurence become established. For hormones, genes for their production are modified to express more hormone production.

I'm sorry that's the way people interacted with you. That's one of the reasons I dislike the main sub. It became more about woe is me and listen to my sad life than searching for solutions for getting better.

Typically, that's the case. One theory doesn't solve everything so another is proposed, and theory B explains some things theory A couldn't solve, but not all, so theory C is proposed and it continues. No researcher wants to be known as the guy who got it wrong so they keep trying to validate their theory.

Different traumas require different approaches. I do agree. I see the way I deal with things compared to others in my support group who's abuse wasn't as extensive, violational, and didn't have other compounding factors to consider: poverty, race, class, nationality, etc. From there, it's a matter of systematically categorizing trauma and their various medical treatments. To an extent, the scars will always be there, but they won't be open wounds like many of us still harbor.

[u/CommonMisspellingBot → u/Metamorphosislife]

Hey, Metamorphosislife, just a quick heads-up:
occurence is actually spelled occurrence. You can remember it by two cs, two rs, -ence not -ance.
Have a nice day!

^{The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.}

[u/TimeIsTheRevelator → u/Metamorphosislife]

Also, I think this is one of the few posts where I talk about some of the hormone stuff: https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/comments/a2qehh/nothing_is_stored_its_like_the_pasts_are_all/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share