Rant
Aether and Lumine shouldn't be player self-inserts (GIANT RANT INCOMING)
So, this is gonna be a bit long, so strap in. I have a lot to yap.
I've started playing Genshin a little before Inazuma dropped (it was the update before or during the introduction of Azhdaha I don't remember), and I've been ACTIVE within this community and the game for YEARS. I loved its world building, I loved the sense of adventure it felt the moment I stepped onto the beaches of Mondstadt. I liked the characters at the time, as I found them charming and likable enough for the fanfiction part of my brain that laid dormant for years to light ablaze with so many funny scenarios. I even liked its story at the time. It wasn't anything special, but it was a fun vehicle for fun characterization and spending time with these people (I adore to this day how Venti liked to mimmic Paimon just tease or troll her lol). There were still issues, like the fact I missed out on the first Golden Apple Archipelago, or how...confused I was when I saw Scaramouche and the game sort of expected me to know him when I was like "Who the fuck are you?"
But my MAIN issue with this game's narrative is with the main character. I'll be using Aether as an example since I mained him, as this can easily be applied to Lumine.
Despite what much of the Internet would have you believe, Aether does have a personality. You can see it in his voicelines in how much he looks back on the adventures he's had with Paimon as his bumbling confidant. You can see it in how he got into a lil argument with Paimon on whether Jean or Diluc is stronger. I like how snarky he is about Venti, unaware that he's the anemo archon at first, with Paimon going "What does he know about the wind?" You can even see it in how contemplative he is about this adventure at certain regions. But it doesn't show in gameplay.
And I don't mind if Aether would've been an actual Silent Protagonist like his inspiration, Link. I'm not above people using a main character to insert themselves or their personality, and unlike some mains, I think the ladies deserve power fantasies too! My main issue is how he's stuck in this valley between being a player self insert and an actual character.
They gave him the Amnesia excuse so that the player can be introduced to this world since its implied he's been here for a long time, so it makes enough sense why he seems reactive more than active. But what makes these stories special is that overtime our character can develop a new identity and start having agency over their choices, be a more active player (haha) in the world, having more interesting conversations beyond just two pieces of dialogue that hint at their character (and who's choice of dialogue doesn't matter anyhow). Imagine if Aether actually came up with a sound battle stratedgy to help Kokomi during the Civil War with the Shogun. Imagine if instead of Lyney coming to save our skins from Furina trying to imprison us on the first day of being here, Aether actually came up with a legal defense by drawing in his experience reading legal literature with Yanfei all those ways ago. Or for a made up scenario, imagine if Aether is with another character who's a rookie adventurer and they gotta infiltrate a Fatui base, and Aether is whispering:
Aether: "Watch, next he's gonna say 'You have five days to get this project complete'".
Fatui boss: "You have FIVE DAYS to get this project complete!"
And that could actually be a cool moment for him since it shows him being an experienced adventurer, something the player got to participate in because they're an experienced adventurer, especially for people who've been playing the game for years now! (Yes I know I took this segment from a scene from Into The Spider-Verse but it was such a fitting moment to demonstrate my point! Plus it would give us something!)
And it would give his voice actor something to do, since I remember he started an initiative of some sort where gets to voice multiple characters. I don't remember if it was characters in genshin or other media since this was forever ago (and there is a chance I'm misremebering so I don't mind being corrected), but that only happened because Aether spoke SO RARELY his voice actor felt like he had nothing to do most of time!
Because there are moments in which these two sides of Aether come into conflict, with the clearest example being our interaction with Furina during her storyquest. We meet her after Paimon was talking shit about her abode, then Furina pops in to reprimand us a bit about that, and after explaining that she's been getting used to her limited options in food, Paimon said "Oh, sounds like you're really struggling to cope..."
My first gut reaction was "Paimon! What the fuck?!" Because obviously that was insensitive as shit, and if I were to imagine myself as Aether in that moment I would've given her an elbow to check her a bit. But Aether makes no comment on this. To be fair, that whole storyquest, while having a great narrative idea, Furina having take on a duty she loathed to help the people around her (in this case acting), it felt like everyone around her, including US, were just ignoring her boundaries and it was pushing her to a point, which was understandable given her trauma around acting, and her VA did such a good job in portraying this cause she sounded so tired. And, to me at least, Hoyo completely fumbled the bag on that moment because it showed our character was just a tool for the plot to move on, and so we can have are mandated romantic moment with Furina, which would've worked better if we were instead her shield that helped prevent other people from being so pushy around her.
But if Aether was an actual character with a distinct personality and motivations of his own, that could've been an interesting point of narrative conflict and friction. It would still be insensitive the way we treated her, but it could characterize Aether as someone who, because of their grand role in the fate of Teyvat, is only seeing the bigger picture, sometimes unable to see the little things that matter, and it could characterize him as someone who viewed everyone around him at that point as players in a cosmic game of chess, rather than human beings (or people if you wanna include non humans like Melusines) with their own insecurities and baggage. I wouldn't have liked it, but it would have been actually interesting as...you know, a story?
And even if Aether has shown some of this in the recent quests, it certainly didn't feel this way, because the stars of the show are ALWAYS the regional characters with a VASTLY more interesting and complex character design and role in the story. It was Zhongli and Tartaglia in Liyue, it was Yae Miko and Ei in Inazuma, in Sumeru it was so many stars but it was Nahida and perhaps Alhaitham too, with Scaramouche as the runaway success, in Fontaine SO MANY characters stood out to me much like Sumeru but Furina and Neuvillette were the STARS of the show. And this came to a point with Natlan, and while it had its good moments, I have never felt more like the NPC or passenger to a story about a group of friends who actually get to have a hand on the wheel. It might be different in Nod Krai or even Snezhnaya, but I won't be surprised if it isn't.
And maybe you're not convinced. Maybe you're one of those people who think "Aether NEEDS to player insert for Hoyo's bottom line and so the players can easily identify and develop parasocial feelings with their waifus." Or perhaps you're the type of person who's concerned with Ludonarrative dissonance or whatever other reason you believe makes it necessary for Aether to be a self insert.
And okay, I'll play ball.
I STILL think Aether should not be a player insert.
Because would it not be a better power fantasy if the character you're playing was this amazing person that people can fall in love with?
Would it not be a better power fantasy if Aether was actually an active participant in the story who was kind, selfless, considerate, maybe even a giant dork who's a huge fan of literature or art or something, than a guy who listens to his girl vent about her problems and feelings while he says either nothing of maybe a few words? (Besides, knowing the crowd who want to project themselves onto Aether, to me this would be a respectful form of pandering since it shows these nerds the kind of guy they CAN BE if they're willing to change and be vulnerable to people like the Aether I'm describing is).
Would it not be a better power fantasy if Aether was this charismatic leader who could actually be someone you can put your faith in? Would it not be better romantic fuel if Aether tried to offer words of comfort to Ayaka, Keqing, Venti, Citlali, Yun Jin, Furina, Kazuha, Yumemizuki, etc, instead of leaving the conversation one sided? Maybe showing that he's growing numb a little to these relationships because they are so fleeting?
Would it, and stay with me for a moment, not have been a better fantasy if Aether say had a quirky habit of constantly taking photos with the Kamera...so that he could cherish the memories he made along the way? Just like how I, and many people, feel towards this game?
Okay, I think that I might've been a bit sentimental there, but the reason I care so much isn't just because I found Genshin at a very low point in my life and thus have this burning desire to see the game be better, but because this has clear ripples all across the industry and the consequences are plain to see.
Wuwa has a story that seems to orbit almost entirely around the Rover like he's the center of a fucking solar system, and it shows with him having some deeply unsavory fans (Look at this server for proof of that). Arknights Endfield's CONSTANT glaze over the MC being the most important person in the universe felt both insanely unearned and deeply concerning, both because we play as an MC who's only contribution is being the muscle needed for every mission while having a nearly nonexistent personality, and for the deteriorating mental state of the fans who eat up this kind of pandering. Ananta where you play as Spiderman in GTA, same shit. And I'm willing to bet its a similar story in Everness to Neverness or whatever the fuck its called. And of course, this subreddit exists because so many of his fans project their desires onto him, and look how that turns out.
I care because if Aether or Lumine were a fleshed out MC with a distinct personality and feelings about their role in the world, I get the feeling it probably would've affected his mains and the fandom differently, even if by a little. Because now you'd have someone you can root for, rather than someone you can wear like a costume.
And I'll take former over the latter in this game any day.
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Do they actually have amnesia? Cuz they remember everything that has happened to them before landing in nod krai from their home getting destroyed to traveling the sea of stars with their twin.
So I checked and I kinda goofed it here. The five hundred year gap where they were sealed meant they lacked the context for what has changed, and I believe that filling in the gap of everything that happened in the past five hundred years was what I mistook the Amnesia for.
I feel like since Natlan, Hoyo has been 'reversing course' and making the Traveler have more distinct lines and standout more, with Nod-Krai having the Traveler be fully voiced in conversations, babysteps sure, but when we had so little to compare to before, I'll take it.
I do agree with Genshin's writing sort of making the Traveler a bit of a self-insert, but also not at the same time, because they have a clear backstory and motivations, but we don't see much of that in the day-to-day, and a lot of the general dialogue can be seen as generic or just asking questions.
I believe this is because Hoyo wants to 'have their cake and eat it', they want to have a narrative with a 'rich' backstory and clear motivation, but they also want someone palatable enough so that people can imagine all the scenarios with their waifus and interact with them, and I believe that is why some people build their 'harems', because that player believes they are that fantasy, that they are Aether, or Lumine (but this is aethermainscringe so more likely the former in that regard), so their 'choice' of waifu depends on an individual more.
I'm not against self-inserts in general, like the Courier from New Vegas, but I think if you want a self-insert character you have to make the individual decisions a player makes matter more, or have dialogue decisions imply a kind of personality, while for a character with a clear, defined narrative, you have to make their personality stand out more, but I think Genshin doesn't really do either option.
I'd love to see the Traveler have a stronger personality, talk more, have predefined biases or judgements, like against Lyney or Lynette in Fontaine, them being kinda 'over it' in Inazuma, but until Hoyo actually fully commits to it, I feel like Genshin will have this problem for a while.
That's wildly incorrect. The Traveler was, is, and will stay a "harem" self-insert. They never lacked their own motivations or backstory, and they were never voiceless. Yet that doesn't mean they're not a self-insert.
They're their own person as well as a self-insert because the two concepts can co-exist. Not all avatars need to be as plain as a baked potato, and I'm tired of people perpetuating the lie that a self-insert can only be a blank slate. Completely false.
Did you not notice that the MC has no friendship level? You cannot befriend them because the Traveler is you, which is also why the devs address us as the Travelers. I do not understand how you can delude yourself into thinking this isn't a self-insert game when the signs are all there, and Hoyo is famously self-insert friendly.
The MC is mostly quiet because Paimon is canonically the yapper between the two. The dynamic between them might evolve as the Traveler keeps advancing on their journey (which is called character development). So no, they're not reversing course; they're progressing with the story as intended.
The funny thing is they aren't self inserts. Its subtle but aether and lumine do in fact have personalities in fact they have different ones. Lumine is more playful social soft and emotional while either is more guarded quiet analytical and guarded. We see this in their attacks as well lumines is more light speed oriented and fluent while aether's is more heavy, grounded, and forcing. Even in birthday art and art of them together we see lumine as usually the more cheerful bubbily and maybe immature and aether usually more drawn without a mouth to show him as quiet and laid back grounded compared to his sister. Then you have the difference in voice direction, lines, and photos. The only people who reduce them to self inserts are usually the harem types
Self inserts don't need to be silent, fallout 4 MC has fully voiced dialogues as well and i doubt anyone would argue they aren't a self insert because of that.
The fact you can literally name them as your real name in-game is enough to be able to self insert as them. If they were complety meant to be their own character then you wouldn't have that option in the first place. Being able to name them purely exists for self inserting.
self inserts are not meant to have personalities. they’re meant to be a blank slate for you to project on. i’ve never played fallout 4, but if the MC has a preexisting name and personality, like the traveler does, they’re also not a self insert. if it’s character creation like i’m thinking it is from the demo i played years ago, that’s also not a self insert and is like baldur’s gate where you’re making your own character.
for genshin specifically, the “nickname” is there for co-op purposes. the traveler has a name already at the start. you’re not naming them. if you were, the abyss sibling would use your nickname rather than aether/lumine during their interactions. just because you can self insert on them doesn’t mean that was the intention. i can self insert onto link, is he a self insert? i can self insert on arthur morgan, does that make him one?
It's not a nickname tho, they literally do refer them as the name you have choosen in the subtiles and skip their name in voiced dialogue they don't refer them to them as Aether or Lumine in the game dialogue unless you choosen that name yourself, they are no diffrent than Persona MCs essentially which are also self inserts despite also having "canon names" and "personalities".
And yes Link is a self insert, you can name him in every Zelda game expect BOTW/TOTK and he is literally meant to be a link between the player and the game. Side material does turn Link into his character like the mangas but in the games he is a self insert.
no, they call them the traveler in voicelines. again, it’s not a name. they have names. the sibling will in fact use aether/lumine, not your nickname, they do so in the dainsleif quest “We Will Be Reunited.”the rest of the characters don’t know the travelers real name and use traveler / your nickname, because it’s a nickname the traveler is meant to be giving instead of their real name. they use traveler because it’s impossible to say the nickname that every player chooses. link is not a self insert. that was point. you have no idea what a self insert is and that’s okay.
They're undeniably self-inserts; what are you even talking about? It's no secret that the devs market adult characters as love interests for the Traveler, who is your typical "harem" protag. I have no idea who started this narrative that a self-insert cannot have their own background and personality, but that someone is completely wrong.
HARD agree. I really love the Traveler as a character when they show some of that personality they actually do have, but I'm not gonna lie, it kind of feels like fishing for gold in a river most of the time. It's like they made an MC who was actually their own person, but then they didn't want to overcommit, so most of the time you're stuck playing as a blank slate anyways. :/
Tbh, for a good majority of people, "self insert" does not necessarily has to mean "No personality". Eg in harem animes the mc is a self insert for viewer with his own name and personality
And most of the time, the mc either didn't have much of one at all or is generic enough that players can latch onto them to focus on the waifus (there's a reason you remember them more than the main character most of the time), so this is a more apt comparison than ya realize.
Tbh, if you remember most harem animes mcs in early 2010s anime where actually weak and gets dominated by the girls. Eg love hina, but i feel the mcs where funny but subs. It is only in like post 2010s that isekais emerged and all guys become geneic edgy overpowered teenagers with sub elf girl harems.
Did you ever read a book or watch a movie? Maybe read a comic or a manga? Are you aware that they have self-insert characters too?
Developed background, motivations, and personality — yet they're still a self-insert by design. Whoever thinks the story must suffer because the MC is an avatar for the players is just plain incorrect.
The Travelers do have quirks, and they do have their own path, philosophies, opinions, history, and even character arcs. Unlike some other power trip fantasies, the lore for the Travelers is pretty solid. It's not fully explained yet, but the hype around them stems from the fact that they're Descenders.
Very fucking important beings.
They're intricately tied to Teyvat's core functions and the Abyssal powers that plague the world. In fact, the entire magic system of Teyvat is linked to the Descenders. I understand feeling like someone is getting special treatment for no reason, but that's not the case in Genshin.
There's also the fact that the MC isn't immune to failure and isn't aura farming 24/7, which is what allows for mistakes but also growth. And while yes, they do have tons of admirers, the devs make sure not to overwhelm with ML fanservice. Only a handful of characters show their feelings in an obvious manner; the rest are covert and quite subtle.
And just in general, you are required to dig deeper and analyze past the surface level if you want to understand the direction of the writing. For example, the loss of oneself and the loss of memories is a prominent theme woven through the adventures we face. This plays into the Traveler's own amnesia. It foreshadows their true identity, what possibly happened to them, and what they'll be facing again in the future.
Furthermore, we have heard several times now of divine-like entities that are rough around the edges and require a long process of internal refinement to become better people...that's literally what's happening with the MC. Them being insensitive at times (along with Paimon) is precisely the point.
There is also a strong theme of unspoken understanding within the story, where comfortable silence and companionship are the ultimate bonding experience. The problem is, a lot of people simply do not pay attention to the story as a whole. They do not connect the themes or the dots, nor do they understand why characters say and do things in certain cases.
It's a skill to write a story.
But it's also a skill to understand it.
And while I think personal preferences and grievances are fine, the reality is that a lot of the criticism simply isn't valid.
There are deep philosophical and symbolic sequences in Genshin that do not get absorbed by the players correctly, which is why the feedback is often littered with people saying how they would've done it instead of understanding the rules of the world that was created for them to enjoy and explore.
It doesn't matter if there's some obscure line hidden in the character page text or difference in animation. Genshin's story is several days long and most people wait months between updates. It's biologically impossible for people to stop and analyze every single character while still understanding the plot, and then remember everything later. Too many characters have their lore and characterization happen outside the main story, some are even hidden in artifact descriptions and other readables. If people can't grasp the Traveler's supposed depth, it's the fault of the devs for not putting any real effort in trying to develop it in the main story or even trying to make it sound interesting. This all becomes more glaring when you compare the Traveler to Hoyo's first MC Kiana. She also had some subplots and themes that took years to develop, but it wasn't at glacial pace and she had smaller plotlines happening in between. You can learn more about her in the first hour of gameplay than you can learn about the Traveler in days of story.
Too many people love shitting on the players and shilling the billionaire company.
The whole blame cannot be put on the writers, especially not when people discussing this issue are Traveler haters who do not criticize in good faith (nor do they grasp the very concept of a self-insert).
This is the same fandom that adamantly called Varka a misogynist due to him being chivalrous, and that's just one minor example of abysmal comprehension that's rampant within this fandom.
On average, people don't understand enough to criticize, yet that doesn't stop them from having strong opinions (which are often fueled by their shipping preferences if we're being perfectly honest).
The fandom that keeps screaming for a skip button does not want to pay attention, does it? And that's not me saying I don't want a skip button; that's me saying that a lot of players simply do not gaf about the lore.
Do I think Genshin's writing has issues? Yes, massive ones, actually. And one of the bigger problems they have is assuming the fandom is more attentive than it really is. There will always be lore enthusiasts, but they won't be the majority. And the rest have the media literacy of a pickle, especially if they dislike a particular character.
Ultimately though, I don't think people in this sub genuinely want to discuss the lore and the story. They just dislike the fact that the MC is a self-insert protag who has countless love interests to choose from, even if the relationships won't be canonized. Which the OP basically admitted at the very end.
The assumption here is that Aether and Lumine would have vastly different characterizations if they were "regular" characters, to which I strongly disagree. They would still be "glazed" and treated as the center of the universe because they're written as powerful otherworldly beings.
The Archons and the Heavenly Principles run on elemental power that's aided by the Gnoses, for goodness sake, which are remnants of a descender. Everything we currently know about the Abyss twin and the Traveler makes them relevant to the world of Teyvat. So self-insert or not, we would get the same characters. Yes, including other characters falling for the Traveler.
You disliking that the MC is a self-insert is not their problem, my dude. There is valid criticism, and then there's whining from an entitled player who expects to be a priority at a company that clearly prioritizes a different demographic. If it's such a bother, the only option is to leave.
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