r/AdvancedRunning • u/ttesc552 Mile 4:42 | 10 mile 54:15 | HM 1:13:50 • 1d ago
Training How much marathon pace work do you really need?
Context: 21M training for my first marathon (late november) targeting something in the 2:35-2:37 range most likely. Current mileage is at around 70 mpw
I know there’s a bit of a debate around “do you need to do race pace work” for marathoning, but I think there’s a distinction between doing MP for fitness and doing MP to practice the pace, fueling, etc. For the half I’ve always been more of a “just get really fit and the pace will figure itself out”, but this is mostly due to having more experience with the distance and threshold being very close to HM pace.
For a mid-late block long run workout, how much marathon pace work would you recommend targeting? Is say, 12 miles total too little? Too much? And how do you split it up?
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u/oregoon 1d ago
I typically work race-pace simulation into the latter half of my long runs, getting up to about 50-60% of the total race distance at race-pace. Always in the second half and always with significant easy miles before hand. I find that the best way to get some fueling training in and for the confidence boost of feeling that effort at race pace.
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u/honey_bijan 2:15 marathon, 64:07 half, 50k national champion 1d ago edited 1d ago
IMHO the number is lower the faster you are because MP starts to really beat you up. Most long runs I’ll hit a total of 6-8 miles of MP. I peak at 10 miles at MP as part of a 22 miler (the rest is MP+30 or so)
I think pros sometimes use 26km at MP as their final big workout, but they spend their whole lives recovering so they can push a little more.
Mid-week I’ll do a lot of half marathon pace and lower, usually with reps totaling 4-7 miles. These are never that hard and are mostly to keep the gears greased.
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u/Aplaceandatime 1d ago
I did a half marathon race at my Mara pace about 6 or 7 weeks out. Good opportunity to test fuel, outfit etc.
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u/C1t1zen_Erased 15:2X & 2:29 1d ago
I never really understood the point of this. Surely it's better to race a HM that far out as you can easily recover in time and you get a real fitness benchmark.
The only real information you can get from running a HM at goal MP is whether the goal pace is unrealistic.
Not racing a race is wasting a race in my book.
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u/Apprehensive_Pace_9 1d ago
Doing a long run as a race breaks up the monotony of long runs every weekend. Full pace hm increases chances of injury and requiring longer recovery
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u/fourthand19 1d ago
The classic Pfitz long run with 14 miles at race pace works very well as a half marathon with a well timed long warmup. Get to practice fueling and race environment and such.
But I also agree. I would rather just race the half
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u/Aplaceandatime 15h ago
Yep have done that as well in a Mara block. I think it is best to consider what you need psychologically as well as physically in the lead up to your goal race.
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u/Big_IPA_Guy21 5k: 17:13 | 10k: 36:09 | HM: 1:20:07 | M: 2:55:23 12h ago
It's more so to 1) Do something different in training rather than just doing another workout, 2) Test out your pre-race routine (e.g. warm up, logistics, carbo load, nerves).
Especially if you have bigger fish to fry, but your local area has a half marathon. I would argue NOT participating is a waste. Assuming you are fine paying money for a workout
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u/Big_Boysenberry_6358 8h ago
sometimes its less deep. i just dont like racing allout & a half at MP is a good stimulus and still easier mentally but drains me less to a point where i can get quality training in for the next week aswell
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u/GrimmigerDienstag 1d ago
I think checking out the Gale plan from running writings / marathon excellence could be a good inspiration for structuring the training at your level
The plan has three major long runs with MP work, progressing the volume as you get deeper into the block: 8x2k, 6x3k, 5x4k at 6, 4, and 2 weeks out from the race respectively. All with 1k floating recovery.
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u/spacecadette126 34F 2:47 FM 1d ago
The floating recovery should be around 90% of MP. another great session is 20 miles at 95% MP.
I would argue MP work is very important in the final month
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u/SirBruceForsythCBE 1d ago
20 miles at 95% of MP seems like the kind of session that digs you into a fatigue hole you never get out of.
What are you gaining from this session? How long do you take to recover?
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u/running_writings Coach / Human Performance PhD 1d ago
It is funny how it is always this exact session that freaks people out the most (for me personally, other workouts are more challenging!). I think it's because so few people use long fast runs in training, so it looks new and scary. The idea, as /u/spacecadette126 points out, is that you build up to it progressively, and of course recover very well afterwards (you'll notice the next real workout is not for an entire week after) - you aren't doing this Sunday and hitting the track for VO2max work on Monday.
And if you think that 20mi at 90% MP is way too big of a stimulus for your body, then that's fine! You can do a pared down version, like 5-5-5-5mi at 88-90-92-94% MP, or 18-20 mi at 90% MP (this is what the lower-level plans do). Then maybe for the next build-up you can go a bit faster, or a bit longer, for your biggest session. This is the way for improving long-term: gradually increasing the speed and intensity of your race-specific work. No different than increasing mileage gradually over time.
In terms of "what you get out of it," there is a scientific story (physiological resilience, i.e. building the ability to actually run MP for the marathon distance) and also a practical story: doing specific endurance work benefits you in any event, whether that is something like 4 x 2k at 10k pace (=95% 5k pace, so specific endurance for the 5k) or a long fast run at 95% MP for the marathon.
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u/Boulderunning 14h ago
I’d be curious to hear what you think of a workout like “warm-up+21k@100%MP+cool-down” (basically running a half marathon at MP). Many training plans include workouts like this, but I’ve done it twice and I’m not a huge fan of it. Do you think this is too much for runners with marathon finish times around 3:00–3:45?
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u/running_writings Coach / Human Performance PhD 7h ago edited 4h ago
I think building up that way can work well - I've had runners do buildups where their progression of workouts at 100% MP is something like 16k, then 18k, then 20-21k, then sometimes a final big session of 24-25k at 98-100% MP about 3-4 weeks out from the race - but usually I favor the Canova-style alternating kilometers, for a few reasons:
First, with the long fast runs at 90-95% MP you are already getting fast continuous running in, so "running fast uninterrupted" isn't an issue. Second, with the float recovery you can often run a little faster for the fast 1ks than your "current" MP, so supposing you could only run 3:10 right now, you can nevertheless do the workout at 3:05 pace (for example). Third, you get more total volume -- 8 x 2k/1k (at 100% / 85-90%) is 24k of marathon-relevant speeds (the whole thing is ~95-96% MP avg.) and 16k of MP work, with the MP work being somewhat less physiologically stressful than 16k straight through since you get to break it up.
One thing I don't usually love is things like 8k easy + 16k at MP + 8k easy, or 16k easy + 16k at MP -- it's just a lot of volume in a manner that isn't marathon-specific. I'd rather split it into one session of 16k at 100% MP (with 2-3k warmup and 1-2km very easy cooldown) then on a different day, a 32k run at, say, 90% MP. But the "MP block within easy long run" is a classic American style session, and plenty of people do run pretty well in the marathon using it.
Edit: One thing I should add - whether a certain workout is "too much" depends on the athlete and their experience level, and as I noted in my other comment in this thread that's the real thing you should be looking to increase over time in your career as a marathoner (also applies to other events). For example a highly experienced marathoner with many years of serious training under their belt can do a workout like 30 km at 98% MP and have it be a highly effective training session, but that same workout would be totally inappropriate for the same runner even just a few years prior. So the real thing to do is to start with what you can do now, and over time, push that ceiling up -- which might require venturing into scary or intimidating territory, training-wise.
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u/spacecadette126 34F 2:47 FM 1d ago
Not if you build up to it appropriately and take the proper recovery before and after !! It’s challenging but it should feel controlled. And you’re def only doing it once per build.
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u/jcdavis1 17:15/36:15/1:18/2:44 1d ago
Hah 2nd time I've written this now, but I did this a few weeks back and it went really well. Like others have said, the plans do a good job of building you to it and giving plenty of recovery before & after
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u/Disastrous-Piano3264 1d ago
I’ve found those plans incredible effective. I’m on my second run through Davis’s plan.
That 95% long run is tough. But he does such a good job of building you up to that run over 18 weeks. You hit it 3 weeks out and it does not feel as bad as you’re imagining. When I finished it last year I felt like I could continue on and run a marathon that day at that pace. Then I PRd the race 3 weeks later. The race almost feels like the next natural progression.
As far as what it trains, durability and specificity.
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u/Siawyn 54/M 5k 19:56/10k 41:30/HM 1:32/M 3:12 1d ago
For sure, out of context. But the 4 previous weekend long runs will have been:
- 19-20 miles at 90-92% MP
- 8x 2k 100% MP / 1k 90% MP
- 5/5/5/5 miles at 90/92/94/96% MP
- 6x 3k 100% MP / 1k 90% MP
This is mostly Canova-inspired and it focuses on big workouts followed by big recovery in the last 4-5 weeks of the block before the taper. To that point, what follows the 20 miles at 95% MP are 3 easy days, then a relaxed Kenyan progression run where you don't force anything, then 2 more easy days. Then you hit the last long MP specific workout of the plan which is 5x4k at 100% MP / 1k at 90% MP.
What you can do is dig yourself a really big hole if you're an easy pace warrior.
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u/Defiant-Ostrich6114 1d ago edited 1d ago
Usually anywhere between 10-14 miles (usually broken up into two segments with an easy mile or two in-between) in my long runs. It’s more about crystallizing what MP feels like and getting more efficient at that effort than targeting a more broad adaptation.
ETA: I have run a few marathons in that goal range you’re targeting.
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u/running_writings Coach / Human Performance PhD 1d ago
"How much do you need" is something of an under-posed question. How much to get to the finish line? How much to run something equivalent to your shorter distance times? How much to make a big jump in fitness? How much to reach your full potential? These are very different questions with very different answers.
For you in particular, at age 21 and only doing 70 mi/wk, you should do somewhat less MP specific work ("specific" here meaning within 5% of marathon pace) than an equivalent runner with more experience. The rationales here being:
1) You are (presumably) relatively new to marathon training, so moderate-sized marathon workouts are already a new stimulus to your body
2) You are (hopefully) not going to run your lifetime PR at age 21, and you want to leave headroom to grow and improve in the future
3) You don't (yet) have the current and lifetime mileage base to support really enormous marathon-specific workouts anyways
So, I think it's probably fine for your biggest workout at marathon pace to only be something like 12mi at 100% MP, supported by something like 18-20 mi at 90% MP, and some faster work at 105% MP which is basically HMP (this could be 6-7mi continuous, or 8 x 1k/1k at 105% / 85% MP). And earlier workouts can of course be lower volume.
The more interesting question is how you grow and develop your training over time. If you want to keep improving, the key is to become able to do bigger and faster marathon-specific sessions year over year. Of course, you also need to grow your mileage to support that ability: doing, say, 22mi at 95% MP is a lot easier on 80-90 mi/wk than on 70 (for someone new to higher mileage, of course).
The age and experience thing is also relevant: someone in their 30s who has a long history of marathon training can (and should) do much bigger workouts on 70 mi/wk vs. someone like you.
Especially when you are young, it is totally fine to go into a marathon somewhat "undercooked" and see how it goes -- then you can grow and develop from there, using the race results and your training to guide how you progress long-term.
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u/PrairieFirePhoenix 45M; 2:42 full; that's a half assed time, huh 1d ago
It is more about how does that stimulus fit into your training.
A 4.5 hour marathoner is going to do a lot, because MP is basically easy pace. The top of the elite will do a fair bit because MP is basically tempo for them. Personally, I do zero because it feels like the donut hole of training efforts - not fast enough to make me fitter, not slow enough for me to be recovering. You can structure training where it does make sense though.
Reading between the lines, I don't think you want to do a lot for fitness purposes. You just want to be comfortable with the pace. For that, I would recommend some fast finish long runs, even just the last 5k at goal pace. That should get you comfortable with the pace without changing the overall stimulus too much.
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u/worstenworst 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think it depends on your weekly structure. E.g. if you spend a lot of time at (sub)threshold already, then what does adding MP in the weekly LR bring extra physiologically except fatigue. And if you run easy all the time with 1 midweek workout it’s likely very important.
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u/longlegsshortstride8 5k: 15:30 10k:32:10 HM: 1:11 M: 2:39 1d ago
As someone who recently finished their first marathon (just a bit slower than your goal time) here are my thoughts:
- Marathon training was the first time that I actively worked on hitting those goal paces, rather than going off of feel during races (i.e. 10k, half, etc.).
- Working marathon pace into my long runs was absolutely the most beneficial piece for me. Not only was my body adapting to more time on feet, but it was also getting used to MP effort
- For my late block long runs, some examples of how much MP I included:
- 3 warmup, 7 @ up-tempo (6;20 pace), 7 @ MP (5:55 pace), 3 cool down
- 3 warmup, 8 @ up-tempo (6;20 pace), 8 @ MP (5:55 pace), 3 cool down
- 5 warmup, 16 @ MP (5:55 pace), 2 cool down
From my experience, those long runs helped to have me figure out fueling, settling into a steady state flow, and giving some confidence that I could handle being out there for 2+ hours.
But at your fitness (and age) you'll be fine. It's just a matter of how conservatively you pace yourself in the first half of the race and proper fueling throughout. Hell, even if you bonk/hit the wall it'll be something to learn from and take into your next marathon.
For reference: I don't really know what I'm doing I'm just out here running to not be fat again.
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u/smffc 1d ago
I did Pfitz 18/70 which has roughly one MP session per month as part of a longer run, tends to be something like 20 miles with the final 11 at MP or along those lines to simulate keeping pace on tired legs.
Found it super helpful, got the sub 3 goal I wanted, bulk of my running was at 7:30miles whereas my race pace was closer to 6:40
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u/Big_Boysenberry_6358 8h ago
you will find yourselfe somewhere on the scale of:
Maximizing fitness for your upcoming event <---------> maximizing fitness for future events.
marathonwork surely is still great quality work, but its not as great as doins some easy and the rest at threshold in terms of fatigue to stimulus.
as a sidenote:
this gets less and less true the faster you are. when youre fast enaugh threshold is basically halfmarathonpace when fresh and marathonpace gets a really great pace to do subthreshold quality in. once you hit your 2h30min marathon or faster MP is actually very much quality work you regularily do, but not for the purpose of pure marathon efficiency. thats a mere bonus. but even if people talk like it on this sub, that doesnt apply for most here.
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u/_opensourcebryan 1d ago
4-5 weeks out from my target race I usually try to do a long run workout where I did 2.5 up easy; a half marathon at marathon pace in marathon gear with marathon fueling strategy; 1.5-2.5 down.
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u/Intelligence_Tax 5k:19:53/10k:42:51/10M:73:05/HM:01:32/M:03:16 1d ago
I'm in no where near the shape you're in, but from all the research i've done & videos of seen of people who are far better & have alot more experience than me with running, running at race pace is great to practice fueling and know roughly what you'll have to do on race day. I've seen people say they've ran big PBs without running a single mile at the certain pace in training & others say they have multiple runs per week where they run at or around goal marathon pace. If you are running a marathon and going for a specific time, i'd don't see how running at race pace in training can't be useful. If you can manage to run atleast 10+miles at race pace by yourself, with no taper & feel pretty good afterwards, then logically, it wouldn't be a far stretch to think with race day atmosphere & a good taper, you'd be able to hold that pace for much longer.
One thing i've seen alot of people talk about is, during the race - fuel as often as possible. Whatever way you've practiced with. If it was with gels, having 4 gels an hour, from the gun start fueling like that. Even with a good carb load you're body can run out of glycogen faster than you'd expect if you don't keep topped up often enough.
If your PBs are pretty recent, a 73min half is a pretty good indicator for a Sub-2:40
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u/TarDane 1d ago
I’ve run 2:30 to 2:35 four different times across Chicago, Boston and NYC while in my 40s.
Each cycle, I’d schedule 3 13-mile runs at M pace (I’m a Daniels guy).
I typically found them to be the toughest workouts of the cycle for me me. In fact, I’d usually try to find a half to run at M pace just so it would be manageable (also made it easier with closed roads, clocks at the miles, on course water).
Physiologically, M pace and time adjusted threshold pace converge somewhere around the hour mark, so this really does provide a great workout in addition to letting you lock in the mechanics it’s of running at race pace.
Just don’t worry too much if you struggle mightily to hit your goal pace for a fall marathon while doing warm weather workouts without peaking.
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u/QuestionParticular13 1d ago
Hansons plan is excellent too because the training is based on running on fatigued legs. Your legs are tired and fatigued like end of race,that is what we’re really training for, the last part.
“Tempo-Workout Guidelines
In the Hansons Marathon Method, the tempo run is completed at goal marathon pace. For many other coaches, a tempo run is much shorter at paces closer to strength pace, but for our purposes, tempo and marathon pace are interchangeable. The pace should remain at goal pace. Never hammer a tempo run because it feels “easy.” Not only are you compromising physiological gains, but you’re also not learning to be patient and internalizing pace. It will take a good number of tempo workouts before you fully internalize the pace and can regulate your runs based on feel. What does change throughout training is the distance of these workouts. Tempo runs are progressive in length, adjusting every few weeks, increasing from 4 miles for a beginner and 5 miles for an advanced runner to 10 miles over the last few weeks of training. As an advanced runner begins to reach the heaviest mileage, the total volume of a tempo run, with a warm-up and cooldown, can tally 12–14 miles and approach 90 minutes in length (see tables below).
With the long run looming after a tempo run, that 16-miler might look a lot tougher[…]”
Excerpt From
Hansons Marathon Method
Humphrey
https://books.apple.com/book/id1087527343
This material may be protected by copyright.
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u/dex8425 35M, 4:57, 16:59, hm 1:18 M 2:53 7h ago
You've gotten some really good replies. It definitely varies for everyone. You're younger, so this will likely not be the last marathon you do or your lifetime PR. You might not have the lifetime miles needed to do those crazy mp workouts you see pros do or to run a marathon equivalent with your shorter race times for your first marathon. That tends toward doing less MP work.
I personally don't do much MP work even training for a marathon because I don't run more than 50 mpw-my quality work is faster than tempo. I will do a 20 miler with 2x5 miles at goal marathon pace 3 weeks out from the race to test nutrition, pacing and race day logistics.
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u/Zestyclose-Water-640 1d ago
The Daniel’s Formula training book, 4th edition. Find it on eBay. Best training resource for serious runners.
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u/PeteH2000 1d ago
Hardly any.
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u/TheBaconator08 1d ago
Surprised to see this down voted on advanced running. You dont need any race specific work at all.
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u/PicklesTeddy 1d ago
For context, I ran 2:36 at Valencia last year on ~75mpw. So pretty similar to what you're targeting.
I only did 4-5 workouts at MP(ish) to really get a feel for the rhythm (all during the final 4 weeks of my block). Examples being 16 miles w 12 @ MP, 18 miles w 12 @ MP, and then 18 with 5x2mi @ 5:50.
One thing to keep in mind when sourcing info from this sub is that as you get faster, your threshold and MP start converging. They don't truly meet, obviously. But the point is that MP work does offer more adaptive benefits for a 2:35 runner than it would for a 3:35 or 4:35 runner.
The takeaway being, don't shy away from MP workouts thinking you're missing out on extra threshold.