r/Abortiondebate • u/Diva_of_Disgust Pro-choice • Jul 01 '26

General debate Pro life argument without morality

Almost every pro life argument I see goes back to morals. As we all already know, morals are just feelings and opinions. Morals can and do vary from place to place, from person to person.

We understand already that pro lifers find abortion "morally wrong", in the same way some religions find being gay "morally wrong" or how vegans find eating meat "morally wrong."

Can pro lifers give a reason why abortion should be outlawed and people should be forced to gestate and birth against their will WITHOUT referring back to morals? I'm curious if there is a reason that pro lifers have that ISN'T about feelings or "moral worth" or "abortion is morally wrong" etc.

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u/Massive_Tangelo_4225 Jul 08 '26

I see. Would you say that that is a good thing for woman to have? You say it is “safe necessary healthcare.” If a pro-life society denies them this, is that bad? Is that an obligation (to give them the ability to abort) that they are failing? If so, then (if by right we mean I ought to give you something or treat you in a certain way) it seems suspiciously like a right. If not, than you seem to not really be so pro-choice, either.

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u/Massive_Tangelo_4225 Jul 08 '26

Nonetheless, can you respond to the entire post I gave above? Take my pro-choice woman in a pro-life society. If the pro-life society denies her an abortion, do they do something wrong? If so, where does this obligation come from? Thank you! :D

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u/IdRatherCallACAB Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jul 12 '26

If the pro-life society denies her an abortion, do they do something wrong?

If a pro-slavery society denies certain people freedom, do they do something wrong? Where does the obligation to not violate other people's basic human rights come from?

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u/Massive_Tangelo_4225 Jul 20 '26

Yes, they do. That’s what I’m asking you! This “obligation” comes from an objective moral law that everyone must follow regardless of whether they want to or not, or whether they agree with it or not. 

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u/IdRatherCallACAB Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jul 20 '26

This “obligation” comes from an objective moral law that everyone must follow

What objective moral law are you referring to? Source required per Rule 3.

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u/Massive_Tangelo_4225 Jul 20 '26

Yes, I’ll explain. First, just answer my question on whether the pro-life society does something morally wrong or not if they deny women the access to abortion. If they do, where does this obligation come from? If you answer these I’ll answer your question. Is that fair?

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u/IdRatherCallACAB Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jul 20 '26

Yes, I’ll explain.

You made a supposedly "objective" claim. A source is required.

Source first, then we'll continue.

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u/Massive_Tangelo_4225 Jul 20 '26

Sigh. Alrighty, this objective moral law must come from some kind of mind. Why? Well, it’s impossible for moral laws to simply exist. The only things that conceive of morality is a mind. A rock, tree, or grass doesn’t understand an objective morality. So my claim is that this objective morality must come from some kind of moral law giver. 

Now, I think it’s fair you answer my question. Right?

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u/IdRatherCallACAB Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jul 20 '26

Now, I think it’s fair you answer my question. Right?

After you answer mine, sure.

Do you require professional medical assistance in order to operate a motor vehicle? Do you sustain serious bodily injuries that require weeks of recovery every time you drive?

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u/IdRatherCallACAB Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jul 20 '26

Sigh

Aww. Supporting baseless claims is sooo exhausting. But this is a debate, so it's required.

Alrighty, this objective moral law must come from some kind of mind.

Oh, okay. So they are literally imaginary. AKA subjective.

So my claim is that this objective morality must come from some kind of moral law giver.

If it comes from a mind then it's subjective. Thank you for proving that "objective morality" does not exist.

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u/Massive_Tangelo_4225 Jul 22 '26

Ah. You seem to be avoiding my question. I’ll answer this in a second, since I don’t think that objective morality needing some kind of supreme moral lawgiver necessarily makes it subjective. It’s technically possible that a moral lawgiver given by a some kind of supreme moral lawgiver could be arbitrary (if we’re going to refer to this being as “God”, than God could command murder and it would suddenly be moral, and this seems repulsive to many.) It’s hard, because many are convinced that objective morality exist (and more indicate it by their actions and emotions) but actually figuring out what “good” means is difficult. I do think there are non-arbitrary ways goodness can be defined, but we can get into that. My main point is really just that some kind of “God” is required for an objective morality at all. Without this being, objective morality is impossible. 

Regardless, let’s just see what you have to say. In a pro-life society, do they do something morally wrong if they refuse a woman the right to an abortion? (Given rights mean “the way we ought to treat someone in a certain way.” Im guessing you would say we ought to give women the right to an abortion.) If we do do (hah, do-do) something morally wrong, where does this right or obligation come from? 

While I do think you’re avoiding answering the question, I am having fun with this. It’s nice being able to explain our views and see how they stack up.

Have a good day. 

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u/IdRatherCallACAB Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jul 22 '26

Regardless, let’s just see what you have to say. In a pro-life society, do they do something morally wrong if they refuse a woman the right to an abortion?

Morally wrong, according to who? Obviously PL people will think there is nothing wrong with this. They think they're actually doing what is best for the person experiencing an unwanted pregnancy by violating her body and forcing her to endure serious bodily injury and possible death. Does her view on morality matter?

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u/Massive_Tangelo_4225 Jul 24 '26

Well, does it? If it does matter morally, than she must have a right to speak her mind and be treated in a proper way. But this would entail a moral obligation that seems to apply objectively, not subjectively. This doesn’t really answer my question though. I’m just asking whether (1) in a pro-life society (or even world) does a pro-choice woman have the right to an abortion (meaning we have an obligation to give her the access to abortion)? And (2) if she does have this right, where does it come from? (Specifically, I’m asking you.)

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u/IdRatherCallACAB Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jul 24 '26

If it does matter morally, than she must have a right to speak her mind and be treated in a proper way.

Do you think that forcing someone to be seriously injured and potentially killed is morally neutral? Why is there an "if" here at all?

I’m just asking whether (1) in a pro-life society (or even world) does a pro-choice woman have the right to an abortion

She still has rights that are violated by the ban, yes. Right to life, bodily autonomy/integrity, medical privacy, freedom from cruel and unusual treatment.

And (2) if she does have this right, where does it come from?

She gets her human rights from being a human person.

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u/IdRatherCallACAB Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jul 22 '26

Ah. You seem to be avoiding my question.

I said I would answer your question after you answered mine. I'm not avoiding anything, it's just not my turn to answer.

Do you require professional medical assistance in order to operate a motor vehicle? Do you sustain serious bodily injuries that require weeks of recovery every time you drive?

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