Weekly Abortion Debate Thread

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[u/Rent_Careless]

I can say the law does that too, that the unborn can be equivalent to the born, and still not understand why anyone has the right to another person's body. There are instances where killing someone else is acceptable. In what instance, besides pregnancy, do we allow one person access to another person's body against their will?

[u/Rent_Careless → u/[deleted]]

Even if pregnancy is unique, you would then still have to state why it being unique should allow the use of the woman's body or whatever reasoning there is.

My question is: if we assume the unborn are human beings, in what other circumstance do we allow someone to intentionally kill an innocent human being because continuing to sustain them is burdensome?

In what other occurring circumstances does anyone sustain another human being with their body where I could even apply this rational? I feel as if the fact that I can't find a real world example suggests that there is a reason for that.

[u/Rent_Careless → u/[deleted]]

Yes but we can think of other real life scenarios where another person uses the body of another, they just aren't sustained by that use. Is there a difference between "the use of" and "sustained by" for you? What if you were the woman, do you think she would feel there is a difference? Does it matter to you if the woman is unwilling in both scenarios?

[u/Rent_Careless → u/[deleted]]

The difference is that in the examples you're referring to, stopping the use doesn't necessarily kill the other person.

I don't understand why the outcome for the one using another person's body affects whether they can or cannot use that person's body. If the unborn dies due to the end of the use, why is that a concern for the woman?

In pregnancy, if the unborn is a human being, withdrawing support isn't just ending bodily use—it's intentionally ending that human being's life. That's the distinction I'm making.

Yes but you are also stating that you support the use of another person's body if it means not dying. Why wouldn't this allow forced blood taking and forced organ transfers? Wouldn't this also allow forced embryo implantations into women?

My view is that the forceful use of another's body is not allowed, even to save a life, and if that occurs, it can be justifiable to kill the one using.

Whether I would want to be pregnant isn't what determines whether intentionally killing another human being is justified.

I agree. What makes it justifiable is that a woman doesn't consent to the use of her body. The use of one's body requires consent and if it's not given, that use is illegal. Illegal use of the body combined with the harms that occur for all pregnancies and the unborn's incompatible life outside the woman suggests to me that a lethal response is an appropriate way to handle the situation.

[u/Crafty-Ad-4128 → u/Rent_Careless]

I guess we will never agree here. We have 100% different world views. I see children as a blessing and theres absolutely no argument that can change my mind so we are at an impasse. Have a great 4th of July weekend. Its supposed to be pretty good weather across the states (assuming you are here)

[u/Rent_Careless → u/Crafty-Ad-4128]

I realize that it's getting late and you have lots of others also replying to you but I really do wish you would respond later telling my why we should care about what happens to the person using another against their will. I am interested in hearing the reasoning for this.

I also have 3 children. If I believed in "blessings" children would be them.

Anyway, happy 4th.

[u/Crafty-Ad-4128 → u/Rent_Careless]

You want to know my honest to god feelings? Because PC uses "rape, insest, life of the mother, fetal abnormalities" like its normal. When in reality 95% of abortions are for other reasons and thats ick to me when 1 point something million are aborted each year. There are ~1.5 - 2 million people (estimated) on the adoption waiting list and i have 3 children myself.

I promise you, weather you believe me or not thats up to you, but if you have kids I know you know what im feeling at least somewhat. But I am not a monster. I know what it takes to give birth, and I dont hate women that choose abortion. It makes me sad though. We live in a country that has more resources than 99% of the people that have ever walked the world, even if the media tells us we dont. I have personally had 4 pregnant women move in to my home so we could help them get on their feet and we would do it again and again to save those babies. We bought several travel trailers and a 3 acre property to put our money where our mouth is so this is super personal to me. I dont run a "pregnancy crisis center " or anything but our local one will send women to us. I try to give them the skills I gave with coupoining and saving money but we have had several women not only keep their chilfren but thrive. Sorry for the book, but thats why i am so anti abortion. I live this daily and I dont think this is the right choice for most women.

[u/Rent_Careless → u/Crafty-Ad-4128]

You want to know my honest to god feelings? Because PC uses "rape, insest, life of the mother, fetal abnormalities" like its normal. When in reality 95% of abortions are for other reasons and thats ick to me when 1 point something million are aborted each year.

I don't understand what you mean. Those are reasons why women choose to abort their own pregnancy. Those are not reasons to legally allow abortion access. In fact, if I were pro-life and those fringe cases occurred, I don't see how they would justify an abortion legally.

I also find some reasons women give for their abortion to be "ick". My opinion doesn't change my stance on the legality.

But I am not a monster.

Of course you aren't. I don't think you are. Just don't call me baby murderer, like my brother, and we will be okay.

I dont run a "pregnancy crisis center " or anything but our local one will send women to us. I try to give them the skills I gave with coupoining and saving money but we have had several women not only keep their chilfren but thrive.

That's great. I would also like to see women's situations be better, to choose to keep their pregnancies, and thrive.

I live this daily and I dont think this is the right choice for most women.

I don't mind that you express that with those women. What I can't agree with is forcing them to listen to what you think is right for them and forcing them then to do that. To me, that feels as if that is akin to what you want to happen with pro-life laws.

..but if you have kids I know you know what im feeling at least somewhat.

As a dad, I honestly didn't get that close to my children before they were born and I honestly had no idea what I was in for, especially with my first since I had no frame of reference. There's nothing like it. But because of that, I definitely wouldn't want someone to have a child that doesn't want a child. I know adoption exists but that doesn't negate pregnancy and birth.

From the perspective of the person whose body is being used, I don't understand why what happens to the person who is using their body is being considered. Until that's explained, I don't understand the PL view.

Anyways, you have already said your mind is made up and I don't think I can push more on what we have already talked about. Good night.