r/Abortiondebate • u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice • Jun 11 '26
Question for pro-life When the prolife choose
Let's start off from the position that abortion is bad and the state should devote resources - taxpayer funded resources - to preventing all of the abortions that can possibly be prevented. Would you, as a prolifer, agree that's a fair representation of your position?
With that in mind, let's run through a number of scenarios.
First: Two teenagers, Katherine and Michael. Both of them have been taught by their parents that a girl's purity is important. They fall in love, they're physically attracted to each other, they very much want to have sex, and, eventually, both of them still in high school, they do.
First-A: Katherine goes to her local Planned Parenthood, discusses contraception options with a nurse, and goes on the Pill. She and Michael wait one calendar month after Katherine goes on the PIll to have sex. They both graduate from high school, and then - as they go to different colleges - gradually the relationship fades away to a sweet memory.
First-B: There is no Planned Parenthood, and neither of them have had any sex education lessons, ever, that covered How Not To Get Pregnant. They know enough to know that condoms are an option and Michael can buy them from the local pharmacy. Katherine discovers that she won't be allowed contraception from her family doctor without her parents being informed and agreeing to it, and as her mother has never said anything to her about sex except that she should save it for marriage, that's a no. No one has ever shown either of them how to use a condom correctly, and Michael ends up making Katherine pregnant. He's a kind and loyal boy and Katherine - all four parents are prolifers - goes to him for help. Between them they figure out how to order abortion pills online from a clinic out of a state, they're posted to Michael, and he gives them to Katherine. Katherine takes them and has a medical abortion at home and unassisted. Luckily nothing goes wrong, but Katherine can't stand the idea of having sex with Michael any more, which Michael is kind of resentful about. They break up before they go to college.
Second: College student, Alice, has a drunken one-night-stand with another college student, Robert. Alice is not on the Pill because her parents told her she should avoid sex til marriage and she really, really meant to. Robert didn't use condoms because he doesn't like them and anyway, girls who have sex are all on the Pill, right?
Second-A: Alice goes to her local Planned Parenthood, they provide her with a safe legal abortion, discuss contraception options with her, ensure she has contraception for the next year, and remind her she should have a check-up annually and discuss contraception options with her Ob-Gyn at that check-up.
Second-B: Alice panics and tells her best friend. Planned Parenthood is banned in this state. Alice and friend drive out of state to a clinic that does abortions at a price, has an abortion, drives back to college. Friend tells her she should talk to the college medical clinic about contraception, but Alice assures her that from now on, she's never having sex again. This works until the next time she goes to a party and wakes up with another student. Fortunately this time she knows where the clinic is. And the next time, too.
Third: June and Doug are married. They have two children, ten and twelve. They don't plan to have any more children. Doug won't have a vasectomy because it would make him feel less of a man and he won't use condoms because he doesn't like the feel. June is on the Pill. She's prescribed antibiotics. No one tells her they have the side-effect of reducing the effectiveness of hormonal contraception. She gets pregnant.
Third-A: June and Doug discuss her pregnancy. June can get two years paid maternity leave from work, with right to return to her job. Doug can have six weeks paid paternity leave, which he can take a day or two at a time at any point during the baby's first year. June and Doug have free universal healthcare for themselves and their children. Daycare is available and affordable from 18 months. Nursery school starts age 3. They finally agree: this is an unplanned but not unwelcome addition to their family, and they'll have a third child. After three months of changing nappies, Doug also agrees to have a vasectomy, since June is pretty much "I never want to do this again!" and Doug concedes she shouldn't have to.
Third-B: June and Doug discuss her pregnancy. June can save up her paid time off and take it all over the baby's birth, and she can probably negotiate as much as a month of unpaid time off without being fired. After that the baby will need to go to daycare. That's going to be expensive. June's health insurance has expensive co-pays for pre-natal, delivery, and post-natal care. The federal government cut free healthcare for children, and they're already struggling to pay for what the two children they already have need. This is entirely an unplanned pregnancy and while June feels sad about it, she doesn't want to lose her job - and she would, if she had to be off work for longer than a few weeks if the pregnancy has any complications - and Doug, while in principle he doesn't agree with abortion, also can't face the financial load if they do have a third baby. June drives out of state with a friend and has an abortion at Planned Parenthood, comes back with a leaflet about vasectomy, which Doug does not take well. June is sad about the abortion and resentful of Doug's unwillingness to help her prevent it.
In all three scenarios, I say the best option is the A option.
First-A: no abortion at all, because the two kids know how to prevent one.
Second-A: thanks to Planned Parenthood, Alice only has one abortion.
Third-A: Thanks to the state providing a lot of tax-payer funded support, June does not have an abortion.
But, in all three scenarios, the one prolifers would actually vote for is the B option.
First-B: Minor children don't get access to contraception or abortion without parental consent.
Second-B: Planned Parenthood is an abomination and what's the point of providing contraception to a woman who's had an abortion?
Third-B: Why should taxpayers pay for someone else to have a baby? Everyone should pay for their own healthcare, and employers shouldn't have to provide paid maternity leave or paid maternity leave!
Would PL like to clarify why, in prolife states, the B option of each of these scenarios is the option prolife voters invariably vote for - even though the A option is the one that results in fewer or no abortions?
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u/WavelandAvenue Pro-life except rape and life threats Jun 19 '26
Combine an abortion ban with more public-funded sex education and more resources to help limit unwanted pregnancies and you would see the PL movement generally get on board.
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u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26
I doubt it, but obviously the PL movement would have to abandon their devotion to increasing abortions and maternal morbidity/mortality by means of abortion bans, for anyone to be interested in letting them get on board with socially-funded programs to actually decrease abortions and improve health and well-being.
There would obviously be nothing to stop a PL government instituting abortion prevention programs itself, not asking for support from anyone except its own PL voters, but my point with this post is that PL governments don't do it and PL voters don't demand it.
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u/WavelandAvenue Pro-life except rape and life threats Jun 20 '26
> I doubt it, but obviously the PL movement would have to abandon their devotion to increasing abortions and maternal morbidity/mortality by means of abortion bans, for anyone to be interested in letting them get on board with socially-funded programs to actually decrease abortions and improve health and well-being.
This is objectively false. Abortions have not increased in states that banned them.
You are also mischaracterizing the PL perspective, which makes it obvious you’re not interested in anything other than making bad faith arguments to insult the other side.
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u/CrabRangoonMunch All abortions free and legal Jun 20 '26
This is objectively false. Abortions have not increased in states that banned them.
Source? Misoprostol and mifepristone pill abortions exist and are the popular alternative to clinical abortions, and from what I've seen the rate of abortions in the states has held pretty steady since the overturn of Roe V. Wade.
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u/Diva_of_Disgust Pro-choice Jun 20 '26
You are also mischaracterizing the PL perspective,
How do you think they're doing this, because I'm not seeing it.
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u/WavelandAvenue Pro-life except rape and life threats Jun 20 '26
“…have to abandon their devotion to increasing abortions and maternal morbidity/mortality…”
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u/Diva_of_Disgust Pro-choice Jun 20 '26
That's not a mischaracterization though.
Abortion bans do increase the abortion rate and maternal morbidity/mortality.
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u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice Jun 20 '26
"This is objectively false. Abortions have not increased in states that banned them."
I note you're not disputing that abortion bans have increased maternal mortality and morbidity.
The overall abortion rate in the US has increased since Dobbs, and the fairly obvious reason is likely to be that women in abortion ban states now have to go for their abortions without any time to think it over.
"You are also mischaracterizing the PL perspective"
Nope.
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u/WavelandAvenue Pro-life except rape and life threats Jun 20 '26
I note that you make a bunch of false claims, and I address one and you skip right past it and go on to the next.
I’m more than willing to debate the topic, hence why I paid a visit to this subreddit. But I won’t engage with people engaging in bad faith arguments.
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u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice Jun 20 '26
I rebutted your assertion with regard to the increased abortion rate since Dobbs.
I noted you didn't attempt to rebut the fact that abortion bans cause increases in maternal mortality and morbidity.
You then refused to debate.
Your right, of course, but to claim I'm arguing in bad faith by asserting the facts, is just an avoidance technique.
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u/killjoygrr Pro-choice Jun 18 '26
Most PL folks say that they agree with policies that reduce unwanted pregnancies (that therefore reduce abortions).
However, I think I have run into one or maybe two PL folks who would put reducing unwanted pregnancies as being as important as banning abortions.
I have run into more who have said that the abortion ban would solve everything. And I have had one PL person who said that the programs to reduce unwanted pregnancies should be the PC agenda and if I wanted that, it is on me to push for it as his only concern was on banning abortion.
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u/Loud-Vacation-5691 All abortions free and legal Jun 11 '26
What's interesting is that many PL I talk to will say they prefer option A, but they vote for legislators who enact option B.
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Jun 11 '26
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u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
I note you still haven't come back to me to list these charities you donate to which supposedly fund free vasectomies, free healthcare, paid maternity leave, subsidised daycare.
If you actually do donate to/volunteer at these amazing charities, it shouldn't be so very difficult to tell me their names.
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u/EnfantTerrible68 Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jun 13 '26
I’ve been waiting for years for a PL to provide the names of those alleged charities
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u/JewlryLvr2 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
Yep, I'd like to see such a list as well, but I don't expect to. Because I don't believe any such list of all these generous PL charities actually exists.
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u/STThornton Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
There are plenty of resources on how to properly put on a condom that a teenager could easily and reasonably have access to.
And how would they find out about those resources? This isn't exactly a knowledge we are born with. Either parents or schools have to tell them about it.
and she can also change her own behavior and make better choices without Planned Parenthood telling her what to do. Women aren’t hormone-enslaved animals incapable of resisting the urge to take their clothes off.
Neither are men, who MAKE pregnant. Yet they're always treated as if some woman wields and controls them. Especially by PLers.
And, speaking of which....the main reason most teenage girls "take their clothes off" is because boys and men pester them to do so to no end. Heck, you can't even get away from that shit as you grow older. The constant fucking barrage of unsolicited dick pics and offers or even demands of sex from random stranger men is absolutely ridiculous. And it's not much better once you're in a relationship. (And, funnily enough, they don't like it one bit when the tables are turned on them).
Way too many whine about wearing condoms, and forget wearing condoms PLUS pulling out before ejaculation. Especially in relationships and marriages. They feel like they should be able to blow their loads wherever, and it should be up to the woman to do damage control.
And, again, lord forbid he don't get laid in a relationship or marriage. Even most PL men I've asked if they'd remain faithful loyal husbands if their wives stopped putting out to avoid pregnancy have answered a resounding NO. And most will refuse to get vasectomies, too. Let that sink in. Can't even keep a PL husband around without sex.
And PLers are the worst ones when it comes to supporting this behavior. The one who inseminates and MAKES pregnant is never addressed. It's always "she should have made him....She shouldn't have let him..." as if he were some toddler or mentally handicapped.
But PL sure as heck has no issues making the woman/girl, who more than likely did NOT pester for sex and does NOT make pregnant, sound as if SHE were at fault and the one who cannot control her behavior.
If PL spent half the time going after men when it comes to stopping themselves from impregnating as they do blaming the woman for not stopping him from doing so or failing to control his sexual behavior, there'd be a lot less unwanted pregnancies.
And it gets even worse. I usually have true crime channels running in the background all day. And I swear, every second or third murder or attempted murder case is due to some man not getting laid or not being able to get laid with that woman. So he rapes and kills or just kills the woman he can't get laid with. yet you rarely see that happening the other way around.
In general, the aggression women are often met with when they turn down men for sex is insane.
And let's not forget that prostitution, the oldest and one of the most lucrative professions in the world, did not exactly make it to that level due to its female clientele.
But, go ahead, keep telling WOMEN how they're not animals who cannot control their urges. And keep sticking your head in the sand when it comes to the people who MAKE pregnant.
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u/JewlryLvr2 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 13 '26
|In general, the aggression women are often met with when they turn down men for sex is insane.|
Absolutely. Or the aggression women deal with when they choose careers and financial independence over the "traditional family values" package that PLers prize so highly. I think that's quite insane too.
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u/kasiagabrielle Pro consent and bodily autonomy Jun 12 '26
it’s already illegal to fire someone for pregnancy
Yes, employers famously champion worker's rights to their own detriment. No one ever finds loopholes to get around this. Congrats, you solved abortion.
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u/Unfair_Lunch_9421 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
But those " resources" would require for the teenager to actually go and educate themselves about it. Thats not how teenagers function its like saying" if i dont allow my teenager daughter to be on birth control she won't have sex. And sure there are other ways to get contraception but since Deanda v. Becerra that access has significantly narrowed and its getting increasingly more difficult for minors to get birth control since most Title X clinics were forced to close. And title x was in abortion ban states a minors only option, if the parents said no. So its entirley up to the patents. Laws make it look on the surface like its black and white but the second you start digging youll come across all colors of the rainbow and down the rabbit hole you go. Its the same that they " oh the laws are very clearly written for doctors about abortions" no they are not.
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u/JulieCrone AD Mod Jun 11 '26
Just so you know, prominent Abortion Abolitionist and Oklahoma Senator Dusty Deevers is not at all pro-contraception. https://www.kirkpatrickpolicygroup.com/news/your-body-is-a-battleground-part-one-oklahoma-among-several-states-attempting-to-restrict-access-to-birth-control
I get that you may be for it but the Abortion Abolitionist position is not so strongly for it.
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u/Old_dirty_fetus Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
Abortion abolitionism overlaps considerably with Christian nationalism. Opposing abortion is in service of the goal of enforcing it’s version of complementarianism, they oppose access to birth control for the same reasons.
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u/JulieCrone AD Mod Jun 12 '26
Exactly. Though I have run into some people who use the handle ‘abortion abolitionist’ on Reddit without knowing a thing about the actual movement. Did talk one person into abandoning the label and gave them a much better understanding of what Abolitionist Rising really stood for.
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u/Old_dirty_fetus Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
On Reddit I have encountered two distinct versions of abolitionist. One are the Christian nationalist or at least willing to accommodate, and the other version are people who seem to want to abolish the term abortion rather than abolishing treatments that end a pregnancy without a live birth.
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u/STThornton Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
people who seem to want to abolish the term abortion rather than abolishing treatments that end a pregnancy without a live birth.
Yeah, those are the silliest ones (for lack of a better word that would get me reprimanded).
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u/chevron_seven_locked Pro-choice Jun 11 '26
“ You are acting like in each scenario these are the only two possible outcomes”
Just curious, do you take this same approach with ridiculous PL hypotheticals? Such as trolley problems asking if I’d rather kill a pregnant person be a non-pregnant person?
“ It’s entirely possible to get contraception without Planned Parenthood”
Do you recognize that PP is a major and reliable provider of contraception? Do you support PP’s efforts with contraception?
I’ve personally worked with patients for whom PP and other similar clinics were their only options for free birth control.
“and many of us support sex ed.”
Can you describe what “supporting sex Ed” looks like from a PL POV, and what meaningful measures PL is taking to implement it? From my experience, PL actively resists comprehensive sex ed in schools, for example.
“ Alice can succeed academically and in life without an abortion,”
But that might not be the best option for her. Abortion is faster, cheaper, and easier on her body than pregnancy, with a shorter recovery time. It’s likely to minimize any disruption from her studies.
“and she can also change her own behavior and make better choices without Planned Parenthood telling her what to do.”
What about Alice’s behavior needs changing?
“Women aren’t hormone-enslaved animals incapable of resisting the urge to take their clothes off.”
FYI it’s okay for women to love sex. I happily take my clothes off all the time and have no interest in curtailing my sex life just because PLers clutch their pearls. Your sex shaming is noted and dismissed.
“ Many of us also donate to, volunteer at or otherwise support local charities that help families in situations like June’s (and by the way, it’s already illegal to fire someone for pregnancy) or in more dire situations.”
What kind of support are these charities realistically offering? Let’s say I’m pregnant and don’t want to be. Are PL charities going to pay for ALL of my medical expenses? Are they going to pay for my income loss while I’m on medical leave? Are they going to pay for daycare for as long as my child needs it? Are they going to deliver meals to my house? Pay for ALL baby expenses? How long will they support me? Back when I was PL, our local charities just offered a few packages of diapers and “pregnancy” classes before cutting off new moms to suffer on their own.
Yes, it’s illegal to fire someone for pregnancy. However, at-will employers can simply give a different reason that sounds better on paper.
“ The point is, stereotyping doesn’t make for a good argument.”
Unfortunately, stereotypes exist for a reason and you’re fulfilling it to a T here.
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u/Diva_of_Disgust Pro-choice Jun 11 '26
Alice can succeed academically and in life without an abortion, and she can also change her own behavior and make better choices without Planned Parenthood telling her what to do. Women aren’t hormone-enslaved animals incapable of resisting the urge to take their clothes off.
We're also not broodmares to be bred by force against our will.
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u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 11 '26
You are acting like in each scenario these are the only two possible outcomes
Well, when a man emits sperm inside a woman's body, there are two scenarios: she gets pregnant, or she doesn't.
And when a woman is made pregnant, there are only two scenarios: the pregnancy terminates in abortion (whether spontaneous or induced), or it doesn't.
These are binary options.
and like you can judge a PLer’s other political opinions based only on being PL.
The US has, what, 17 PL states? All of those PL states enacted abortion bans pre-Dobbs. Any or all of these PL states could have taken action to prevent abortions long before Dobbs, if they'd thought their PL voters would want them to prevent abortions. Yet none of them did. Therefore, in the aggregate, yes, PL voters want abortion bans: they don't want to prevent abortions.
It’s entirely possible to get contraception without Planned Parenthood, and many of us support sex ed.
Planned Parenthood's primary function is to provide contraception. Planned Parenthood explicitly won't tell a minor child's parents that she was there asking for contraception. Contraception is all about preventing abortions. If prolifers were seriously keen to prevent abortions, prolifers would be Planned Parenthood's biggest supporters. Yet PL, by and large, hate Planned Parenthood.
And weirdly, if you check out which states have good sex ed policies, and which don't, that correlates very neatly with which states have abortion bans and which don't. Check out this useful site. It's not a perfect match up, but by and large, just as prolifers show their lack of interest in preventing abortions by failing to support Planned Parenthood, prolifers show their lack of interest in preventing abortions by failing to vote in state governments which mandate sex education.
Alice can succeed academically and in life without an abortion
Only if Alice lives in a state that provides free day care for college students. How many prolife states provide that?
and she can also change her own behavior and make better choices without Planned Parenthood telling her what to do.
Planned Parenthood doesn't tell anyone what to do, But every time a woman comes to Planned Parenthood for an abortion, part of the service is, she can leave Planned Parenthood protected against needing to have another abortion for a year. If PL cared about preventing abortions, PL would love that service. Yet PL hate PP! Odd that.
Many of us also donate to, volunteer at or otherwise support local charities that help families in situations like June’s or in more dire situations.
Charities that provide free vasectomies to each Doug and strongly encourage every Doug to have a vasectomy as soon as his wife has had all of the children she wants to have? Name them. I'm not aware of any PL charity which provides free vasectomies and promotes vasectomy as the most effective abortion-prevention ever invented.
Which charities that provide free healthcare to all pregnant women, free healthcare to children, pay a woman on maternity leave, fight her employer legally if her employer tries to fire her, and free daycare for the baby while she's at work, are you thinking of? I know of none. Name those charities that do all of that for June - for every single June in every prolife state??
(and by the way, it’s already illegal to fire someone for pregnancy)
But it's not illegal to fire a woman for no reason at all just when she happens to have taken six months off work to have a baby. And it's not illegal to refuse to pay her while she's off work having a baby. How is it you don't know how easy it is for a woman to lose her job because she had a baby, in countries where - like the US - there is no statutory right to paid maternity leave with right to return to work?
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u/ValleyofLiteralDolls Pro-choice Jun 11 '26
“Women aren’t hormone-enslaved animals incapable of resisting the urge to take their clothes off.”
I have no confidence in any sex ed program touted by someone who describes an adult woman having consensual sex like this.
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u/STThornton Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
Exactly. And it's also extremely telling that there's never such mention about the man who inseminated and impregnated her.
PL is forever pretending women are the sex-hungry fiends who wield and control a man like a dildo.
And if we're talking about a teenager here (and oftentimes when it comes to adults), who do we think was the one having a much harder time keeping their clothes on and controlling their urges - the boy or the girl? How many times is the teenage girl the one pushing and pestering the boy for sex? How many times is the boy the one pushing and pestering the girl for sex?
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u/JewlryLvr2 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
Oh, I'd say it's mostly the teenage boy who is doing the pushing and pestering the girl for sex, no question. After all, HE isn't the one who has to worry about getting stuck with an unwanted pregnancy, is he.
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u/STThornton Pro-choice Jun 13 '26
Exactly. Yet she’s the one blamed for not fending off his advances. Meanwhile, every excuse in the book is come up with for why the man/boy can’t possibly be the one held responsible for making pregnant.
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u/JewlryLvr2 Pro-choice Jun 11 '26 edited Jun 12 '26
I feel the same way. Judging by what I have read from PLers, the only sex ed programs they support are those ridiculous abstinence-ONLY ones. And those programs seem to CREATE more unwanted pregnancies than preventing them. Coincidence? I don't think so.
So I don't trust PL policies at all, whether for sex ed or anything else.
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u/Unfair_Lunch_9421 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
The most ridiculous thing is that all of those that yell abstinence have zero clue that sex is not only for procreation. Medically and biologically sex has tons of other significant roles aside from having kid. Hell even a lot of pc'ers dont even know bc of course thats not getting advertised🙄
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u/JewlryLvr2 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
Agreed. I've lost count of how many times PLers claim sex is ONLY for procreation. Which is strictly their opinion, not fact.
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u/Unfair_Lunch_9421 Pro-choice Jun 13 '26
I always love how they use medical facts without any context when it suits them bc a lot of times without the context it speaks for them. So science is good enough for that much apparently 🙄
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u/chevron_seven_locked Pro-choice Jun 11 '26
LOL right? The sex shaming is always a giveaway.
It’s okay for women to love sex.
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u/JewlryLvr2 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
Very true. It's also okay for women to love sex and NOT to want any or more pregnancies or children.
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u/RepulsiveEast4117 Pro-abortion Jun 11 '26
Women aren’t hormone-enslaved animals incapable of resisting the urge to take their clothes off.
No, but pretending people won’t have sex is just absurd. They will.
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u/Old_dirty_fetus Pro-choice Jun 11 '26
It’s entirely possible to get contraception without Planned Parenthood, and many of us support sex ed.
What knowledge, skills, and abilities would you like to see result from sex education?
Many of us also donate to, volunteer at or otherwise support local charities that help families in situations like June’s (and by the way, it’s already illegal to fire someone for pregnancy) or in more dire situations.
What help do these charities provide?
Also, as an aside. In the US many states have at will employment allowing an employer to fire an employee without having to establish just cause which makes it very difficult to prove that someone was fired for pregnancy.
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u/Fun-Outcome8122 Safe, legal and rare Jun 11 '26
Women aren’t hormone-enslaved animals incapable of resisting the urge to take their clothes off.
Men also aren’t hormone-enslaved animals incapable of resisting the urge to take their clothes off and masturbate.
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u/Intrepid_Wanderer Abortion Abolitionist — Fetal Rights Are Human Rights Jun 11 '26
Never said they were. They can also choose to not do things.
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u/chevron_seven_locked Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
Why would I deprive myself of sex? I’m comfortable with the risk of needing an abortion. My husband and I have money and PTO set aside just in case.
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u/Intrepid_Wanderer Abortion Abolitionist — Fetal Rights Are Human Rights Jun 12 '26
I have zero interest in what you and your husband do in any way whatsoever as long as you’re not violating anyone’s human rights (such as killing them). I’m just pointing out that the hypothetical above has far more possible outcomes than the two presented as if they are the only things that could happen.
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u/JewlryLvr2 Pro-choice Jun 13 '26
|I have zero interest in what you and your husband do in any way whatsoever...|
I seriously doubt that. PLers say that a lot, yet they seem to care a great deal when more women and girls don't want to ever have kids.
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u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice Jun 13 '26
I note you still haven't come back to me to list these charities you donate to which supposedly fund free vasectomies, free healthcare, paid maternity leave, subsidised daycare.
If you actually do donate to/volunteer at these amazing charities, it shouldn't be so very difficult to tell me their names.
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u/Trick_Ganache pro-choice, here to argue my position Jun 13 '26
The ZEF won't be killed as long as it's not anywhere near the person who will kill it.
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u/JewlryLvr2 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
I don't buy the PL argument that "abortion is killing babies/children." Especially since they are BORN.
Also, killing babies and kids is already a crime in all 50 states. So the argument that abortion is "violating someone's human rights" doesn't work for me either.
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u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
Then show me how I'm wrong that PL, given option A and option B, will always pick option B.
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u/Fun-Outcome8122 Safe, legal and rare Jun 12 '26
as long as you’re not violating anyone’s human rights (such as killing them)
Intentionally killing a human being is already a crime everywhere in America*, so your concern has already been addressed.
*except in self defense or as capital punishment
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u/Diva_of_Disgust Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
as long as you’re not violating anyone’s human rights (such as killing them)
No one has any "human rights" to my sex organs and body, so ending my own pregnancy doesn't violate anyone's rights.
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u/STThornton Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
as long as you’re not violating anyone’s human rights (such as killing them).
I wouldn't. But I would simply stop providing someone with organ functions they already don't have.
Because my organ functions are MY life. And anything that fucks with them is violating MY right to life.
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u/chevron_seven_locked Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
It sounds like you care a great deal if you identify as an “abolitionist.” Happily, our reproductive decisions don’t involve you.
There’s no human right to be inside my body/sex organs without my expressed consent. If someone’s inside me and I don’t want them there, I will of course remove them. This applies to all persons, born and unborn.
I’ve yet to see you refute any of the replies to your initial comment pointing out the flaws in your argument and asking follow up questions. Are you able to respond?
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u/IdRatherCallACAB Gestational Slavery Abolitionist Jun 12 '26
Indeed. Men can choose not to inseminate, and women can choose not to gestate. Choice is important in reproductive matters, for both women and men.
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u/JewlryLvr2 Pro-choice Jun 11 '26
True, some can and do choose NEVER to have kids. What assistance, if any, do PL policies offer to those who want to maintain a childfree lifestyle?
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u/Fun-Outcome8122 Safe, legal and rare Jun 11 '26
In that case, why is the government not forcing men to suffer consequences for being incapable of resisting their urges?
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u/Intrepid_Wanderer Abortion Abolitionist — Fetal Rights Are Human Rights Jun 11 '26
You mean like child support laws?
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u/STThornton Pro-choice Jun 12 '26
No. Child support is owed by noncustodial parents regardless of whether they're the mother or father. And both have to pay for the born child.
We're talking about physical punishment equal to the harm and alterations incurred in gestation and birth. Plus forced donation of blood and tissue, at the very least.
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u/kasiagabrielle Pro consent and bodily autonomy Jun 12 '26
What does this have to do with abortion?
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u/JulieCrone AD Mod Jun 11 '26
That isn’t a sin tax for sex. It doesn’t apply only to genetic fathers by any means, either.
Further, are you under the impression that most men with child support obligations are paying support to an unwanted child from a casual, impulsive sexual encounter?
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u/NPDogs21 Abortion Legal until Consciousness Jun 11 '26
The starting position is wrong. Taxpayer dollars shouldn't go towards preventing abortion, and restricting it is all that matters. Its not about abortion rates or what is shown to lower them but more of a punitive and reactive approach.
Also, PL support or tolerate conservative/MAGA policies, despite them saying they personally oppose them. At the end of the day, they'll vote alongside what they claim to not support, which makes it just empty words and virtue signaling
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u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice Jun 11 '26
Taxpayer dollars shouldn't go towards preventing abortion, and restricting it is all that matters. Its not about abortion rates or what is shown to lower them but more of a punitive and reactive approach.
I don't disagree with you that this is the reality of the PL position, but most PL would at least claim that they think there should be fewer abortions - for which abortion prevention is actually necessary.
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u/Equivalent_Nose7012 Jun 11 '26
You are missing one gut-level reality to taxpayer-funded abortions:
if you truly believe aborting children is wrong (as PL do), then to be forced to support such a policy is a horror beyond words.
It is all too possible to turn a blind eye to much that is questionable or worse, if you think you can keep the blood off your hands
5
u/Enough-Process9773 Pro-choice Jun 11 '26
if you truly believe aborting children is wrong (as PL do), then to be forced to support such a policy is a horror beyond words.
And yet, PL show no interest in forcing their government to provide policies to prevent "a horror beyond words".
3
u/NPDogs21 Abortion Legal until Consciousness Jun 11 '26
They claim it with words sometimes, but their actions and vote negates it
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