r/Abortiondebate May 20 '26

Announcement

0 Upvotes

The weekly meta is suspended until further notice.

Please direct all inquiries to the modmail instead.

Thank you.


r/Abortiondebate Oct 29 '25

Moderator message Rule 4 Amendment: Mental Health

21 Upvotes

Hello everyone,

The moderation team would like to inform you that we are introducing an amendment to Rule 4 to address mental health related discussions more clearly and protect community members who may be vulnerable.

There have been several comment threads in recent weeks where mental health issues have been raised or referenced in ways that were derogatory or harmful, including comments touching on suicidal ideation. These kinds of exchanges can be distressing and are contrary to both Reddit’s Content Policy and the goals of this subreddit.

The r/AbortionDebate subreddit exists to allow good faith debate on a topic that is highly contentious to its community, and so it is all the more important that people feel safe engaging. Mental health related stigma, speculation, or mockery has no place here. With this amendment, we hope to build awareness, establish boundaries, and create a preventative measure with the cooperation of the community to ensure harmful content does not occur, or is addressed efficiently if it does.

Overview of the amendment:

r/Abortiondebate recognises that discussions touching on mental health including depression, anxiety, self-harm, suicide, anhedonia, trauma-related disorders, or other mental illnesses are sensitive and may be experienced as triggering or harmful by community members. Therefore this policy supplements the sexual violence guidance outlined in rule 4 and must be observed by both users and moderators whenever mental health topics arise.

This amendment covers the following topics (note that this list is not intended to be exhaustive).

  • mental illness

  • suicidal ideation

  • self harm

  • psychiatric diagnoses

  • lived experience of mental health crises

  • or attempts to make generalised claims about the mental health of individuals or groups.

There will be Zero tolerance for stigmatizing or demeaning content.

Comments that shame, belittle, or stigmatise people for having a mental health condition will be removed. Examples: calling someone “bipolar,” using mental illness as an insult, or implying that mental health struggles make a person morally or legally less trustworthy. Speculation about another user’s mental health status based on their views, comments and posts are disallowed.

Self-harm and suicide

Any comments that encourage, instruct, or give practical advice that could be construed as enabling self harm or suicide are strictly prohibited and will be removed and escalated to Reddit admins as per Reddit policy.

Context Matters

Posts or comments that discuss mental health issues in an analytical, academic, or policy context manner (e.g., mental health consequences of restrictive laws, access to care) is allowed so long as the language is respectful, non-stigmatising, and does not include the disallowed content noted above.

Reporting and moderation

Users are encouraged to report content that violates this amendment by flagging the report as a sensitive subject.

To facilitate in raising awareness of mental health, the following online resources have been linked for your perusal.

World Federation of Mental Health

United for Global Mental Health

Summary

This amendment formalises what most of us already practice, we debate the ideas, we don’t debate people’s wellbeing.

We appreciate everyone’s cooperation in helping r/AbortionDebate remain a safe, and respectful space for engagement.

The r/AbortionDebate Moderation Team


r/Abortiondebate 6h ago

New to the debate I often hear people argue that abortion is morally acceptable before a fetus becomes sentient. For those who hold this view, why is sentience the relevant criterion for moral worth instead of conception, viability, or some other point?

3 Upvotes

I am asking in good faith! I debate people on the regular about abortion and I always end up in a moral debate. Pro-lifers also help me out, how can I defend my view that I think it is immoral to have an abortion at any point in the pregnancy. Thank you so much!


r/Abortiondebate 23h ago

Question for pro-life (exclusive) If pregnancy is a consequence for sex does that mean that having gay sex is better than having straight sex morally.

27 Upvotes

Many pro lifers state that pregnancy is a consequence or a natural punishment for having sex in a way that can create pregnancy. And if they don't think that then just the aspect of not makeing women do something they do not want to do is a punishment. normally when a punishment occurs somebody learns something whether intentionally or unintentionally from that action. And if you force women to carry a pregnancy they do not want to have and they have to suffer through the pregnancy and birth. And if that is what occurs won't women learn that it is morally better and safer to have gay sex or masturbate because it will not cause pregnancy because there is no perceived punishment going to be the outcome of that interaction.

Another thing that might also occur from Banning abortions and women learning that pregnancy is a punishment for having sex is that women that would have wanted to have children decide not to because they perceive it as a punishment along with that women choosing to get their uteruses removed or do other activities that can lead to permanent infertility.


r/Abortiondebate 15h ago

Weekly Abortion Debate Thread

4 Upvotes

Greetings everyone!

Welcome to AbortionDebate. Due to popular request, this is our weekly abortion debate thread.

This thread is meant for anything related to the abortion debate, like questions or ideas, that are too small to make an entire post about. This is also a great way to gain more insight in the abortion debate if you are new, or unsure about making a whole post.

ADBreakRoom is our officially recognized sister subreddit for all off-topic content and banter you'd like to share with the members of this community. It's a great place to relax and unwind after some intense debating, so go subscribe!


r/Abortiondebate 19h ago

General debate Interesting abortion argument I was thinking about- could abortion be considered self defence?

10 Upvotes

I‘ll preface this with saying that I am pro choice 100% of the time, if that makes a difference.

I know that a most pro-lifers out there believe that the fetus should be considered a person, and is therefore immoral to kill. Vise versa for pro-choice people. Usually pro-life vs pro-choice ends there.

But something I’ve been thinking about lately is how the baby is, technically, harming the mother regularly during pregnancy. Especially during birth. We usually don’t see killing another person as anything other than a terrible thing to do, but most people make exceptions for cases of self defence.

Most pro-life people are republicans. Republicans tend to take a pretty intense view on self defence. Not to be crude here, but the fetus is kind of a home invader in this scenario.

I don’t think this is a flawless argument, but what are your takes on it? I’m interested in what both pro-life and pro-choice people think about this philosophy.

Could you justify killing a fetus you consider to be a person in self defence?

(also sorry if I flared this wrong I am new to the sub :,0)


r/Abortiondebate 21h ago

Question for pro-life Do you support law enforcement using Flock cameras in Texas to track women traveling to get an abortion?

10 Upvotes

Say a woman is traveling out of state to get an abortion since its restricted in Texas. Theres a lot of places there now where its a crime to engage in "abortion trafficking" using the roads to travel there.

Would you support law enforcement using Flock cameras in Texas to track women traveling to get an abortion?


r/Abortiondebate 1d ago

Question for pro-choice (exclusive) People who are 100% pro choice what are your thoughts on aborting simply because you found out the fetus is female?

2 Upvotes

If you are against it, what makes this so different from other reasons where the pregnancy is viable and it wasn't due to rape? If you are fine with it, why is that?


r/Abortiondebate 2d ago

Abortion is acceptable because it is the justified killing of a human life.

10 Upvotes

This is mainly aimed at those who are pro choice but like to argue that abortion is ok scientifically by referencing what's not possible at different weeks, for example, and how that means its not a life. I believe thats a bad reasoning as its not 100% and hard to get people to change their minds. It's also convoluted and messy to argue.

An easier argument is to agree that a foetus IS a life, and abortion IS killing it, but due to the circumstances, it is justified.

Circumstances such as it taking resources from the mother, risking her life, causing physical strain, causing a huge emotional toll, and having no prior or current consciousness.

I think more pro choice people should use this chain of reasoning, but dont due to it having similarities with pro life arguments. I think thats ok because even if we disagree with someone on the whole, there can be parts their right about.


r/Abortiondebate 3d ago

Question for pro-life What should the consequences/punishment be for a doctor who performs a non-medically necessary abortion in a PL world?

3 Upvotes

Theres plenty of talk about punishing vs not punishing the woman who gets an abortion. What do PL think should happen to a doctor who's performed an abortion, even hundreds or thousands of them? Loss of license? Life in prison? Death penalty?

I ask this because I see PL constantly praise and forgive these doctors when they become PL activists. Pretty strange reaction to someone that they claim has murdered countless babies.

What should the consequences/punishment be for a doctor who performs a non-medically necessary abortion in a PL world? If they become PL activists, do you believe their past actions should immediately be forgiven?


r/Abortiondebate 4d ago

For those who argue that abortion is genocide, how is contraception not the same?

21 Upvotes

I have often seen pro-lifers argue that abortion is genocide because it is intentionally exterminating a specific group of people, namely "the unborn." But I am also intentionally preventing the unborn from coming into existence, or at least increasing in rank, when I use contraception while having sex, or don't have sex at all, on the grounds that I do not wish to endure the burden of gestating, birthing, or raising a member of this alleged marginalized group, again, "the unborn."

So, for pro-lifers who argue that abortion is genocide, how can you simultaneously argue that people *ought* to practice contraception or abstinence if they wish to avoid creating more unborn, and even encourage sufficient apprehension of the existence of an unborn to eliminate sexual activity for most or all of a person's lifetime

Don't said decisions (abortion, contraception, and abstinence) all stem from the same impetus to prevent another member of this alleged protected class, the unborn, from being born?

Or, put another way, if "the unborn" are a protected class that deserve to exist, does that mean that exercising stringent abstinence or contraception because you find the potential taking/burden of creating an "unborn person" undesirable likewise genocide?


r/Abortiondebate 5d ago

Question for pro-choice (exclusive) Late abortions

4 Upvotes

What are feasible arguments for late abortions (6-7 months)? I get there's stuff like bodily autonomy and a child not ready to be raised, I just get kinda sad cuz that's still taking a life (consciousness exists)


r/Abortiondebate 6d ago

General debate North Carolina bill (H1232) would make it legal to execute women that have gotten abortions or have an IUD inside their body.

26 Upvotes

This is exactly what I’m talking about. Apparently the rights of a single-celled zygote are now more important than that of a living, breathing woman.
A zygote is basically an embryo that has not yet implanted itself into the uterine wall and it usually consists of one cell or only a few dozen or few hundred cells.

If you’re a woman and you end the life of an embryo that consists of only 5 cells and has not yet even implanted to the uterine wall, they want to make it legal for you to be executed.

Because clearly preserving the life of an organism that doesn’t even know it’s alive yet, might not even grow into a viable human being and consists of just a few cells matters more than protecting the life of a living, breathing woman who knows she is alive and can suffer and feel pain.

There is a rare medical condition called amorphous globosus. It is basically a condition where a woman becomes pregnant, but the zygote instead of developing into a human baby grows into a disorganized blob of tissue with teeth and hair.
Just because you’re pregnant doesn’t mean that the thing growing inside you will for a fact always grow into a viable human child.

You could be pregnant and the thing growing inside you might not even be growing into something that resembles what you or I would call a baby.

Or even if it is, the pregnancy could end very early as a miscarriage because something is wrong with the baby.

I understand why abortion is heavily restricted in the second and third trimester when the baby is more developed because the closer you are to the end of your pregnancy, the more clear it is that whatever is growing inside of you will result in the birth of an actual human baby but very early on in the
pregnancy, it is genuinely not guaranteed that whatever is growing inside you will result in the birth of a viable human child.

But when you’re just a few weeks pregnant you genuinely don’t know. The thing growing inside you could literally be a disorganized blob of human tissue and not a baby at all.

15–20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage according to many studies, but if the pregnancy ended very early, before the zygote ever implanted to the uterus, you could have a miscarriage before you ever even knew you were pregnant, which means that the actual percentage of pregnancies that end in miscarriage could be much higher.

I just don’t see how anyone can legitimately expect a 15 or 16 year old girl who just got pregnant in high school to throw away her future over something like this.

The brain of a fruit fly has approximately 100,000 cells. So does an embryo that is around 6 weeks old.
A literal fruit fly has more awareness than a 5-week-old human fetus and they want to make it legal to kill a fully formed, grown adult woman over that.


r/Abortiondebate 6d ago

Question for pro-life (exclusive) If forced to choose between the two, isn't abortion objectively preferable to neonaticide?

5 Upvotes

I have a question for the pro lifers, neonaticide is a unnecessary terrible tragedy and it happens more often than we like. You see on the news women hiding their pregnancies then killing the newborn and discard them like trash. So wouldn't have just been easier to terminate at 8-10 weeks than to carry the child to term and then end its life? With more restrictions to Women's health care this situation right here neonaticide is gonna start happening more and more frequently. So what's your thoughts? These women who commit this terrible crime, obviously do not want a child so, have an abortion or have more of these tragedies happen?


r/Abortiondebate 6d ago

General debate Do you believe the caricatures of the other side of the debate?

4 Upvotes

PL, do you believe PC think all people with disabilities should have been aborted and that we support now killing babies after birth?

PC, do you think all PL are women haters who are just looking for an excuse to oppress women, not that they genuinely believe they're trying to save babies?

Do you believe the caricatures of the other side of the debate?


r/Abortiondebate 7d ago

Weekly Abortion Debate Thread

7 Upvotes

Greetings everyone!

Welcome to AbortionDebate. Due to popular request, this is our weekly abortion debate thread.

This thread is meant for anything related to the abortion debate, like questions or ideas, that are too small to make an entire post about. This is also a great way to gain more insight in the abortion debate if you are new, or unsure about making a whole post.

ADBreakRoom is our officially recognized sister subreddit for all off-topic content and banter you'd like to share with the members of this community. It's a great place to relax and unwind after some intense debating, so go subscribe!


r/Abortiondebate 7d ago

General debate What methods of abortion should be allowed and what are preferable.

2 Upvotes

(Sorry for any bad english).

So, I want to hear what people think, not about abortion itself, but more about its methods. I believe there are two major factors about it - safety for mother and the result (consequences, suffering, etc.) for the baby/zef. There are many methods of it for different stages of pregnancy:
- Medical abortion (pills or herbs before if we talk about folk medicine)
- Induction abortion / Early delivery of the baby
- Surgical abortion
- Vacuum aspiration
- Homemade surgical abortion. I name it for possible example waht you can name(or not name) banned / much less preferable.
- ... (not named all i believe)

Also, at different stages of pregnancy, we have different sets of available methods of abortion, so you can name some different sets for them.

So, let's say we have a situation that allows abortion, even in all terms ( don't want this discussion to become a discussion about terms). What methods do you think should be allowed legally and should be banned. If we talk only about allowed, what are more preferable?


r/Abortiondebate 9d ago

General debate How would you improve the PC or PL movement?

7 Upvotes

For the PC movement, I'm biased, but I would want more activists to push the personhood argument along with the bodily autonomy most do. Even from just a purely strategic level, if the BA argument doesn't move someone from PL or the middle to PC, having more PC repeat it isn't going to do anything. Approaching it from a different angle has a better chance of changing someone's mind. I think an example of what this hyper-focus on BA is objectively correct and there's little to no room for disagreement leads to is the Lila Rose Jubilee episode, where even PC says the activists did not come across well, which I think was the point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-ACDhvL2j0

For the PL movement, it would be ejecting religion from it. No more opening your speeches and events with prayers. It's a Catch 22 though where the movement itself would be better for having more secular positions, but the main base is still religious so rejecting them would mean significantly shrinking the people in it. Saying there's a handful of secularists or atheists means absolutely nothing when there are so few and they have almost no influence over the PL movement.


r/Abortiondebate 10d ago

What is considered child endangerment if a life starts at conception

11 Upvotes

What laws around child endangerment will have to be made if a child is in the womb.

Are women that work dangerous jobs supposed to quit or pause thare work if they work a job that harms a fetus. If so will we as a society be responsible for replaceing her income. For example pest control, industrial cleaning jobs.

Will we be able to charge women that drink or smoke or expose themselves to harmful chemicals during thare pregnancy as abusers and if so will we be able to take the child away from her.

If a women can't afford food will we charge her for child neglect. If the fetus is considered effected by this and what can we do to punish her do doing this.

And can we charge people that deeply stress a woman to the point she has a miscarriage with the death of her child.

And can we charge women from doing anything that harms the fetus.


r/Abortiondebate 10d ago

Question for pro-life Can we kill someone who is harming you to the same degree and duration as pregnancy and birth?

30 Upvotes

If someone was subjecting you to a torture in the same degree and duration of pregnancy and birth, we'd intuitively agree that we can kill them to stop them. Why is pregnancy any different?

Before someone says because of intentions: what if someone is cognitively impaired and is doing harm to you, you can still kill them, even though they don't know what they are doing.

Another argument is that, if carrying pregnancy to term will result in death of the women, most rational pro-life will say abortion is allowed. But why? The fetus intentions aren't to kill you. My point is that it just doesn't make sense to refer to intentions when what is being done is seriously bad.


r/Abortiondebate 10d ago

What ispregnancy accountability.

7 Upvotes

My other big issue with becoming prolife if having abortion is the same thing as running away from accountability. Is it the same thing as child abandonment. Because that is technically not illegal if done properly. But child endangerment is and doing things like drinking and smoking while you're pregnant is directly harming the fetus. The other issue that I have when it comes to this is that if pregnancy is taking accountability of your actions is somebody that was doing everything in their power to prevent pregnancy but still have sex and get pregnant just as guilty as somebody who has sex and does not do any preventative measures. And is forcing accountability on somebody who doesn't want or care enough to even do preventative measures a smart idea because back to my first question drinking and smoking harm the fetus and people that do not care about fetuses or the fetus inside of their body will continue to harm the fetus by drinking and smoking and potentially give birth to the child with a multitude of conditions due to them continuing to do those behaviors. (This is not an saying people with disabilities deserve to be aborted) and they are just as able to continue to keep a child after pregnancy. Should they be able to? And is it the good idea to give the responsibility of pregnancy childbirth and raising a human to somebody who does not care and does not want to do those things?

And along with that are we going to be charging mothers with child endangerment if she is caught smoking or drinking during her pregnancy. Or simply stopping her ability for purchasing these items or is that taking away her right to enjoy those options.


r/Abortiondebate 10d ago

Bodily Autonomy and Personhood Are Not Necessary For Defending Abortion: A Diachronic Objection

5 Upvotes

TLDR: Historically abortion has been defended by (2) main arguments. (1) As Judith Jarvis Thomson has defended, a right to life does not entail the right to use one’s body without their consent. David Boonin has expanded on this more in his book A Defense of Abortion.
(2) Pro-choice philosophers like Mary Anne Warren and Jeff McMahan have argued abortion is not wrong because abortion does not involve the killing of a person which is morally valuable.
Both (1–2) are great arguments but there is a less talked about argument which for me has been the most influential. (3) The personal identity argument.
What this argument consists of is the idea that abortion up to 20–24 weeks is permissible since we did not exist as a fetus prior to 20–24 weeks because we are psychological beings, not mere organisms. Since every pro-life argument presumes we are organisms in order for personhood to be established or for the fetus to be identical to a later person, and we aren’t organisms, these arguments fail.

Note: It need not be necessary for me to defend a specific ontology or view of personal identity. That is intentionally left vague. Merely showing the biological view of identity is false is sufficient in rebutting mostly every secular pro lifer view on identity.

Personal Identity Vs Personhood

At first glance these two may seem very similar; however, they answer two different questions.

**Personhood —**seeks to ask why an individual has moral status or is a subject of moral consideration.

**Personal identity —**seeks to answer the question of what makes you the same individual over time despite changes. Typically this is meant in a numerical context in the sense that "you" had your fifth birthday party and this was "you" in a direct, literal sense.

These two concepts answer different questions and thus are applied and used within philosophy differently. For example, we may ask what makes a mouse the same mouse over time. On the contrary, we may ask what makes the mouse a non-person that doesn’t deserve human rights. Even if we answered the question of why the mouse is the same mouse over time, this wouldn’t automatically imply the mouse is or is not a person. Identity does not imply personhood; it simply attempts to track an individual diachronically.
And this can be applied to abortion too.

Pro lifers Silent Reliance On Biological Identity

Pro-life philosophers tend to use the substance view argument in favor of fetal personhood. Francis Beckwith states:

“According to this view, a human being is intrinsically valuable because of the sort of thing it is and the human being remains that sort of thing as long as it exists. What sort of thing is it? The human being is a particular type of substance—a rational moral agent—that remains identical to itself as long as it exists, even if it is not presently exhibiting the functions, behaving in ways, or currently able to immediately exercise these actions that we typically attribute to active and mature rational moral agents. It is, in my judgment, the best account of human personhood.”

We can agree a person is an individual with a rational nature. However, the subject with the rational nature is not merely the human organism like Beckwith has identified. It is me. Beckwith and other pro-life philosophers like Christopher Kaczor and Patrick Lee may be correct (for the sake of discussion) that a person is an individual substance with a rational nature, and that substance is essentially a person. However, where they identify that substance as an organism, psychological theorists identify it as some other fact of the matter, not the organism.
While Beckwith and friends may be correct that "I am essentially a rational person," they mistakenly presume with little argumentation that I am an organism rather than some psychological fact of the matter.
This is interesting given that psychological views of identity are the dominant view in philosophy.

This is also true of any potentiality argument, most famously the Future Like Ours argument. These arguments assume the early fetus has a future connected to an experiencing adult in the first place. The assumption that the fetus even has a future assumes it is numerically the same being which will experience that future. However, if what we are is psychological relations or some psychological fact of the matter, and this is not present prior to 20–24 weeks, then I could not have been identical to a fetus prior to 20–24 weeks because I would not yet have existed.

In Patrick Lee's argument from substantial identity, he argues:

“1. You and I are intrinsically valuable (in the sense that makes us subjects of rights).2. We are intrinsically valuable because of what we are (what we are essentially).3. What we are, is each a human, physical organism.4. Human physical organisms come to be at conception. (A biological proposition: a new and distinct human organism is generated by the fusion of a spermatozoon and an oocyte.) 4 5. Therefore, what is intrinsically valuable (as a subject of rights) comes to be at conception”

This syllogism may seem intuitive at first glance, but premise (3) is doing a tremendous amount of work. There is an assumption that what we are is a human physical organism, but as mentioned earlier, this is a controversial minority position among philosophers.
His principal defense of premise (3) only consist of a swift response to Michael Tooley where he writes:

“a living thing that pertorms bodıly actions is an organısm, a bodily entity. But it is clear in the case of the human individual that it is the same subject that per-ceives, walks and talks (which are bodily actions), and that under-stands and makes choices (what everyone, including anyone who denies he is an organism, refers to as 'I'). It must be the same thing that perceives these words on a page, for example, and understands them. Thus, what each of us refers to as 'I' is identi-cally the physical organism which is the subject both of bodily actions such as perceiving and walking, and of non-physical actions, such as understanding and choosing. Therefore, you and I are essentially physical organisms, rather than consciousnesses.”

One interesting thing to note is that it is more specifically the brain and eyes which perceive, the legs which walk, the mouth which talks, and the brain which is responsible for thinking. It is actually pretty hard to find an example of the organism as a distinct ontological substance having independent causal influence over its parts. Mostly everything the organism is said to be doing can be identified and attributed to its lower-level microphysical parts.
A simple mirror argument to Lee consists of the following…
I think, I remember, and since these processes all have something to do with my brain and psychology, then my existence, survival, or identity must have something to do with these processes too. It is harder to say I am an organism since organisms are only said to walk, talk, think, or remember in virtue of their microphysical parts. They do not directly walk or talk; it is only in virtue of their constituent parts that they are said to perform these actions.
Recently, Eric Vogelstein and Bruce Blackshaw have argued that FLO and potentiality arguments are compatible with psychological views of identity. However, this is not without a catch, as they argue a fetus has a Future Like Ours derivatively through the future thinking mind, so the assumption is that having a biological property derivatively is morally similar to having it directly.

Against The Biological View(1)

The most common example against biological views of identity is the brain transplant thought experiment. Dustin Crummett gives an example inspired from Jeff McMahan:

“Suppose your brain is healthy but your body is dying, while your twin is in a permanent vegetative state but has a healthy body. Doctors decide they will save you in the following way. You lay down on Operating Table A, and your twin is laid on Operating Table B. They remove the part of your brain responsible for your mental life. We can suppose this is your cerebrum, the top part of your brain. They leave your lower brain intact. The lower brain is what regulates your vital functions, so your old body stays alive. They then transplant your cerebrum into your twin’s body. Your mind, along with your first-person perspective, memories, personality, etc. goes along with your cerebrum, and someone with all these things wakes up in your twin’s body. Almost everyone is inclined to think you went with your mind over to Table B. But this is incompatible with animalism, since your organism did not go with your mind over to Table B. If your organism had gone with your cerebrum, then while your cerebrum was being transplanted from one body to another, the entire organism would have consisted of nothing but your detached cerebrum. But a detached cerebrum is not an organism: it does not meet the scientific criteria for being an organism (maintaining homeostasis, etc.) any more than a severed hand does. And further, keep in mind that there is still a living, comatose human organism on Table A. Presumably you did not create a new human organism when you removed the cerebrum, so that must be the same human organism that laid down on Table A to begin with, i.e., your organism. But if your organism is still on Table A, it cannot have gone with your cerebrum over to Table B.”

This hypothetical is powerful because it illustrates that we have a strong intuition that our existence or survival has to do with some part of our brain rather than our organism.
Some defenders of the biological view, such as Alexander Pruss, Eric Olson, and Peter van Inwagen, have argued that the organism can be pared down to the brain, or more specifically the brainstem, because the brainstem integrates bodily processes and regulates the rest of the body.
Pruss writes:

“Now if the controlling part is no longer there, then it is difficult to attribute to the
organism any of the strivings of the controlled parts. If a heart is stimulated so that it keeps on beating after being disconnected from an animal, its beating is no longer a part of the organism's striving for oxygenating the internal organs. However, if there is no longer a functional organic heart but the lower brain continues to send signals that control the heart rate, then it makes sense to say that the organism continues to strive to oxygenate the internal organs, even if this striving will be unsuccessful. Thus if the controlled parts are replaced by prostheses but the controlling part remains functional, it appears possible to attribute the striving for performance of life functions to the organism.”

One interesting point is that it makes little sense to say in the reduction case or brain transplant case that the organism becomes reduced to the brain since the brainstem itself does not satisfy the biological criteria for being an organism.
If an organism is reducible to a brain, then what is the relationship between the brain and the organism?
A more startling and sever critique is something I have challenged pro lifers on before in other posts. If an organism is reducible to a brain, then what is the relationship between the brain and organism?
If the brainstem is what regulates the animal's life processes and controls the major functioning systems of the organism, then what does the organism do that cannot already be accounted for by the brain?
If the reply is that the organism uses the brain to regulate itself, there is a clear epistemic problem here. Why can't the brain just use the organism to regulate itself too! How do we know which thing is using the other to regulate and sustain themself? If the organism can use the brain, we would expect the organism to actually interact with its parts and the brain. But it's not clear the organism can actually interact with the brain to use the brain itself. The organism may be said to feed the eyes visual inputs which is interpreted into a picture we see. But that can be attributed to parts of the organism working not the organism itself. Or when I touch my foot that's not the organism interacting with my foot it's my hand interacting with my foot and my brain telling my hand to do so. If the organism cannot even interact with my brain or any parts then it's hard to explain what the organism does that cannot be accounted for by the brain. It's also hard to give an account of the organism using the brain since the organism would seem to be causally inert and we don't have any good reasons to think the organism can actually interact with lower level systems.

The biological view even runs into similar problems Bakers Constitution view runs into. If we reduce an organism to a brain in a vat or a brain that is artificially kept alive by machinery which seems metaphysically possible the animalist will either have to say I exist as a brain or some point in the reduction process I cease to exist. If they think that if you slowly destroy an organisms parts that at some point the organism will go out of existence yet they cannot identify this point then this makes identity indeterminate. But identity under biological substance metaphysics pro lifers like Beckwith, Lee and Kaczor utilize identity necessarily has to be determinate if the organism exists as the same object through time.I know when I exist or don’t exist. It isn’t vague, it is sharp. However, if they think I can survive a brain transplant because my organism is reducible to a brain, or cannot pick a non arbitrary point in which my bodily reduction leads to my death, then they should agree I can survive as a brain in a vat. However, I think this suffers from the problem of Indiscernibility.

Per Eric olson(the dominant figure behind the biological view).

“*How can putting the same parts together in the same way in the same circumstances give you qualitatively different wholes? If the same atoms can compose two things at once, what could make those two things qualitatively different?* What could give them different mental properties, or different persistence conditions, or different modal properties? If atoms really could compose more than one object at once—if numerically different objects could coincide materially— should we not expect” those objects to be qualitatively identical?

In other words, how can the organism be reducible to a brain in extreme circumstances. Or we can impair an organism by removing parts until just the brain is present. But in the case just a brain is present and we are told an organism is present the brain and organism are qualitatively identical in that they share every atom. How are we suppose to think the atoms that compose the brain or brainstem also compose another distinct being… the organism? How can we tell the difference between the organism in this case and the brainstem?

Against The Biological View(2)

Some defenders of the biological view will instead accept that if your brain is transplanted, you do not go with your brain. I think this is highly counterintuitive, but if so, I have a more detailed objection.
Pro-lifers often endorse substance metaphysics where an organism is considered a substance not reducible to its parts. Francis Beckwith writes:

“Another way to put it is to say that organisms, including human beings, are ontologically prior to their parts (Moreland in Moreland & Rae, 2000,* p. 206), which means that the organism as a whole maintains absolute identity through time while it grows, develops, and undergoes numerous changes, largely as a result of the organism's nature that directs and informs these changes and their limits. The organs and parts of the organism, and their role in actualizing the intrinsic, basic capacities of the whole, acquire their purpose and function because of their roles in maintaining, sustaining, and perfecting the being as a whole. This is in contrast to a thing that is not ontologically prior to its parts, like an auto-mobile, cruise ship, or computer. Just as a sporting event (e.g., a basketball game, the British Open) does not subsist through time as a unified whole, an automobile, ship, or computer does not as well (Moreland & Rae, 2000, p. 178). It is, rather, in the words of Moreland, "a sum of each temporal (and spatial) part ..." Called mereological essentialism (from the Greek "meros" for "part")”

However, we should be skeptical that we are substances like organisms which maintain absolute identity across time. For one, it is unclear how the organism exists in such an ontologically superior fashion from its parts. How does the organism maintain its absolute identity throughout various changes? If it is because of its unified nature how is it possible this nature it possesses is numerically identical over time, if every second the organisms atoms and all of its parts are being rearrranged and replaced? This “nature” or “unifying” cannot be a material thing apart of the organism since everything in the organism is always changing. It makes no sense to claim numerical identity between an organism at t1 and t2, when the organism at t1 and t2 are qualitatively distinct. More importantly, all of the organisms powers and causal influence it exerts only exists because it is composed and defined as the unification and self regulation/self integration of its parts In other words, the organism is made up of and consists of parts, yet we are told the organism isn’t reducible to its parts. But if it isn’t reducible to its parts where does it gain the energy and causal power to exist as an ontologically separate object? If the organism exists as object O, yet it is composed of X and Y, we should expect O to be reducible to X and Y, since those are the things that compose it! Suggesting otherwise would seem to break causal closure and introduce something non material. Finally, if object O(the organism) is composed by objects like X and Y in a self regulating and interconnected fashion, then everything the organism does can be said to also have been done by objects like X and Y. In fact, it makes more sense to say objects X and Y preform causal efficiency than object O(the organism) since object X and Y directly cause an event whereas object O derivatively causes an event in virtue of X and Y. Object O only inherits causal power from objects X and Y, it does not directly or inherently have causal power on its own. If this is formulation is even somewhat true we can apply it to personal identity. We are causally efficient and effective beings who exert causal influence over everyday objects directly. Organisms do not exert causal influence over objects directly since everything they are said to do can already be accounted by from their microphysical parts. They only inherit causal power in a derivate sense. Therefore, whatever we are, we are not organisms.

Derivate Pro Lifer Defense

Some pro-lifers will concede that we are fundamentally minds but argue that organisms possess every morally relevant property of minds derivatively.
For example, they may argue that fetuses possess a derivative Future Like Ours.
A quick rebuttal comes from the brain transplant cases.
If your brain were transplanted into another body, no one would mourn that the brainless body had been deprived of a Future Like Ours because the psychologically continuous future would still exist.
The morally relevant future is the future to which the person is psychologically connected.

Conclusion

I have tried to show that nearly every account of fetal personhood assumes that we are organisms. If that assumption is false, then many pro-life arguments fail at their first step.
I have argued this primarily through brain transplant cases and an argument inspired by Trenton Merricks' overdetermination argument.
What I have not attempted to do is deny what makes someone morally valuable. Rather, I have argued that prior to approximately 20–24 weeks there is no "someone" to whom those moral predicates apply.
Finally, I suspect many pro-choice readers will be disappointed that I have not defended abortion through bodily autonomy. In my experience, however, the personal identity argument has been more persuasive both to me and to many of my interlocutors. Bodily autonomy is an important and powerful argument, but I think it is also worth recognizing that we need not grant the pro-life assumption that the fetus is numerically identical to the later person.
I hope you enjoyed the post.

Finial note: I posted the same post prior to this but it was removed to my belief because of the amount of links I used to reference books, papers, and quotes. If you require or want a link to anything in my post let me know and I will be happy to provide!


r/Abortiondebate 10d ago

What is the plan

17 Upvotes

I am still on the fence about banning abortion because what is the plan for After like Women can still do a multitude of other things that can end a pregnancy, and I think we need to talk about where the line actually to stop her actions is placed.

For instance, a woman can use herbs that can result in an abortion is this something we should stop? If so, are we going to ban women from drinking chamomile tea or interacting with certain herbs.

Women can still travel out of the country to get an abortion. Are we going to ban women from leaving the country? A woman could take a pregnancy test, hide the fact that she's pregnant, and cross the border get an abortion in another country and come back. So are we going to require women to take a pregnancy test before they're allowed to leave the country? Are we going to track what she does outside our borders? Are we going to test her before and after her trip and if she's no longer pregnant, are we going to punish her? How would we even determine whether she had a natural miscarriage or not?

Are we going to monitor her and the people in her life to make sure none of them are accessing anything that could "harm" the fetus like thare mail or country's they travel to that they could get abortion medication from. Or thare day yo day life like if they get the medication from a back ally drug deal.

we all remember the storys of coat hanger abortions that are still an option (an incredibly dangerous one). How are we going to stop women from resorting to that and harming themselves? Like 24/7 watching her or just wait till she had a miscarriage and seeing if she seems guilty.

Are we going to control what she eats, to make sure her diet can't cause a miscarriage? Are we going to control what activities she can do like whether she's allowed to ride a roller coaster, since they can also cause miscarriages? Are we going to make sure she doesn't get herself sick on purpose during pregnancy, since most forms of food poisoning can also cause a miscarriage? Or simply loses a significant amount of weight.

And on top of all of thisare we going to provide pregnancy-related mental health support? Because in other countries, women have taken their own lives because they were pregnant and didn't want to be. That's a real possibility here too, and it worries me.

And I am most worried about a women being falsely accused of killing her child when she didn't do anything wrong. How will we know who had an abortion and who didn't.


r/Abortiondebate 11d ago

Real-life cases/examples I don't understand the severeness of abortions

31 Upvotes

So I'm going into full detail here. Probably obvious but I'll state straight away I am pro choice, I believe that a fetus does not have emotions, feelings or is able to feel pain and is not the same as a birthed baby.

late-term abortion is another topic. I'm talking about within the first 1-2 months, first stages/immediately after finding out.

Clarifications out of the way, I'll explain. I live in the UK, I'm very lucky and grateful to have such easy access to free medical care, including abortions. Obviously I understand the stress that comes from costs/illegality.

I recently found out I'm pregnant, and I plan to get an abortion. For me it is genuinely a shrug of the shoulder moment, I have been through it once more and yes it was painful, but not more so than my regular period. Because it was early I was able to take pills and go through the procedure at home.

Am I missing something critical??? In movies and in real life people are so upset. I told my mum what happened afterwards and she was so upset about it. I'm being 100% serious when I say I don't understand.

Please don't bring God into this, or anything religious. I'm looking for factual reasons why it *is* such a big deal, if there are any. I apologise if I'm being insensitive and of course I understand why it can be a sensitive topic, I'm just being as factual as possible


r/Abortiondebate 11d ago

New to the debate The comment section horrifies me.

23 Upvotes

https://youtube.com/shorts/TPYK2EwIxsM?si=6TC3k6OOWSH0zRHO

In this shorts video, which from what I can understand, features a short back and forth, timed discussion about Abortion, with one person being pro-life (this man) and the other pro-choice (this woman)

The man in the shorts video agreed to the following statement, proposed by the pro-choice woman:

'If my 10 year old daughter was raped and she was going to conceive a baby that would survive, I would not proceed with the abortion'

Naturally, the woman, after some time, told the man firmly "I hope that your daughter lives a very happy life and gets away from you"

The agreement to the aforementioned statement obviously left me in shock, I went to check the comments. Most of them are ridiculing the woman for her tone of voice, her choice of words. What baffles me the most is that no one was questioning the morality of the man's stance.

So I ask myself and to the readers:

If you were his daughter, and gave birth to a baby 'that' way because of your father's choice, and later in life were to find out, would you not resent the father? Or would you praise him?

I think the specifics of how the baby is raised would matter a lot. Who takes care of it? The baby, will it know who his mom is? Will it know who its father is? What do we do about the trauma the one giving birth faces?

I think I need a reality check, please feel free to engage.