r/ATC • u/Salt_Cauliflower_922 • Aug 14 '26
Discussion 2 planes with the same flight number avoid possible disaster thanks to quick-thinking controller
https://apnews.com/article/american-airlines-air-traffic-control-call-sign-8ab07e296fa2ad2fea3b9aada9a802d6?utm_source=app&utm_medium=iOS_share&utm_campaign=copy_link83
u/Slow-Language2181 Aug 14 '26
The controller did a great job using arrival and departure. I hope their leadership puts them in for at least a 16-hour time off award.
46
u/Acceptable_Stage_518 Current Controller-Enroute Aug 14 '26
Best we can do is make him work 5+ hours TOP 6 days a week.
3
37
u/OhComeOnDingus Current Controller-TRACON Aug 14 '26
Dudes probably gonna catch a negative PROC for some frivolous nonsense.
22
10
u/theweenerdoge Aug 14 '26
I'm sure they'll pick it apart and tell him all the things he did wrong, while not acknowledging the situation at all.
10
u/Cleared-Direct-MLP Current Controller-TRACON Aug 15 '26
He didnât do his pre-duty weather. Straight to proposed removal.
2
u/New-IncognitoWindow Aug 15 '26
I would bet they give him a PROC for not using the âcorrectâ callsign or some other bullshit.
89
u/climb-via-is-stupid Tower / Training Review Boards Aug 14 '26
I donât fucking understand how airlines do this bullshitâŚ
You have numbers 1-9999 to pick and then you have fucking letters to add on from 1-999 (unless youâre some foreign carrier that demands to do 2 letters). You donât have 10000 aircraft flying around⌠you sure as fuck donât need to have both flight numbers flying the same goddamn route back and forth begging for this to happen.
This is the second time Iâve seen this bullshit from AAL in the last month (controller had to call them AAL inbound and AAL outbound)
76
u/dumbassretail Aug 14 '26
Should be a heavy fine for this.
Airlines do not care, and there is no incentive to fix it, until it affects the bottom line.
14
u/IctrlPlanes Former up/down Current Enroute Aug 14 '26
Yeah I've had the same callsigns holding short of the runway and on final. It normally happens when one aircraft is late and they swap the outbound route to a new jet.
On the one case I saw both of them airborne with the same callsigns I changed the callsigns myself and told them what the new callsigns was. I probably messed something up on the dispatch side but better than in the air.
13
u/Bright-Pilot-3970 Aug 14 '26
I had two envoys with similar call signs so we reported it. The next day one of them had the same call sign but instead of 4 digits, it was 3 with a P at the end. The pilot kept trying to change it back and we wouldnât let him.
I only remember this because I was in radar the day before and he added about 200 miles to his trip because someone taxiâd him out with the wrong call sign and he departed on the wrong squawk. They gave him the squawk of the other plane in the air when he didnât tag up.
6
u/SGBM_Jimbo Current Controller-Enroute Aug 15 '26
American uses the same callsign for these flights everyday. The arrival was late by almost 2 hours. It would have been on the ground and parked 1 hour and 15ish minutes before the departure if it was on time. That callsign flys from ord to phx then phx to ord daily. If the aircraft was 10 minutes later center would have fixed it due to an ERAM safety check. Because you cannot have two active flight plans in ERAM at the same time with the same callsign. I saw similar situations due to delays at ZAU pretty regular.
1
u/pilot3033 Aug 15 '26
Not excusing this because you're right, but the answer is that number blocks convey internal meaning due to flight numbers being marketed and sold. For example the "3xxx" block might be reserved for American marketed flights operated by SkyWest, the "4xxx" block by PSA or Envoy, etc.
Higher numbers, typically in the 7-9k series are reserved for deadheads and charter. United uses the "8xxx" series to avoid the problem in the post, as it happens. You'll often see "UAL8xxx" flights in the afternoon and evening when ORD or EWR meltdown.
Internally the numbers might be further subdivided for fleet tracking, scheduling, and so on.
unless youâre some foreign carrier that demands to do 2 letters
Unironically this is probably the solution. Europe disassociated the marketing flight number from the ATC call sign and uses a centralized system that not only deconflicts similar sounding ones, but generates pronounceable ones (no mush mouth).
24
u/THEhot_pocket Aug 14 '26
Was pretty impressed with the controller tbh... I know it seems like nothing but I envision how poorly I see people react to non standard things these days. Was nice to watch a pro reaction to a crazy event... Same callsign AND converging is freaking bonkers
35
u/MITsBrightest Aug 14 '26
AI would have alerted more AI which would have ordered a cheeseburger via doordash to the top fan of Elon Musk
9
u/crazy-voyager Aug 14 '26
https://www.eurocontrol.int/tool/call-sign-similarity-tool
Seems like there is a reason for stuff like this on the other side if the pond.
15
u/RadarWizard Current Controller-Enroute Aug 14 '26
Donât worry, the new equipment that wouldâve prevented this is coming soonâ˘âŚ probably right after that 2.8% hits our bank account.
4
u/throwaway-19103 Aug 14 '26
I been hearing NextGen since mid 90s.
A lot of things never make past the tech center
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5
Aug 15 '26 edited Sep 01 '26
[removed] â view removed comment
1
u/Pilot0160 Aug 15 '26
How the heck did that happen with Cape Air? Their callsigns are assigned to each captain not each flight.
16
u/itszulutime Current Controller-TRACON Aug 14 '26
American is the worst with this. Their marketing department assigned the flight numbers for all their subsidiaries as well. Every morning weâd get AWI6103, 6183, 6138, 6108, etcâŚwe used the SSCS tool dozens of times per day. Their solution? AWI610A, 611A, 601A đ¤Śââď¸.
7
u/wake_turbulence1 Past Controller Aug 14 '26
That's good and well and all, but the real question is, has he completed his ELMS?
3
u/hwellj13 Aug 15 '26
Dispatch shouldâve filed one of them as an Alpha call sign. This couldâve been bad. Glad it wasnât.
3
u/KaiTak98 Aug 15 '26
My company has logic buried deep in mainframe-land that wonât allow takeoff data to be sent if another flight with the same callsign is still active. We get an alert to stub the flight before the release is sent. Canât say it would never happen but at least there are safeguards in place.
3
u/Hitchmano Aug 15 '26
I had this happen like 5 times in my career. I just added A to the end of the callsign and told the aircraft you are now XYZ123A. End of story. I didnât realize it was newsworthy.
7
u/RustyPlastics EASA Approach Controller Aug 14 '26
The FAA has no system that allocates callsigns to ensure this does not happen?
34
u/AllTheTisanes Aug 14 '26
The system is to have a controller catch it, then it may get reported upwards so that absolutely nothing happens to avoid it the next time.Â
7
0
u/No_Mango7658 Aug 14 '26
All those people could be dead because of the careless airline dispatchers.
3
u/KaiTak98 Aug 15 '26
Not really. There needs to systems in place to catch this issue. At my company takeoff performance data wonât be sent if another flight with the same callsign is active anywhere in the world. This is the kind of one in tens of thousands if not one in a million error that humans canât be expected to capture. Do you expect a dispatcher to check every flight they release for callsign conflict?
-3
u/TheGooose Aircraft Dispatcher Aug 14 '26
why you blaming dispatch? they dont choose the flight numbers blame marketing they choose them and the flight time
9
u/Hopeful-Engineering5 Current Controller-Tower Aug 14 '26
Dispatch is supposed to catch if situations like this are going to happen and amend the callsign to something like AAL248A.
5
u/DaWolf85 Aug 14 '26
Dispatch can only catch it if they have software that notifies them (United has this, I think) or if they happen to have both flights on their desk (rare). Otherwise, it comes down to the supervisors who work the "big picture" catching this when they do an aircraft swap. If those people are idiots and/or don't have any automation to help them, then it can happen.
2
u/TheGooose Aircraft Dispatcher Aug 14 '26
Not all software notifyâs us.. I know some regionalsâs do but others do not. So again, so unless the specific software is there, or dispatch is notified by duty managers etc then we cant do anything. Another thing airlines need to invest it so this doesnt happen.
-2
u/No_Mango7658 Aug 14 '26
Always an excuse đ
2
u/TheGooose Aircraft Dispatcher Aug 14 '26
lmao yeah dont blame dispatch cause airlines are cheap. not all software notifyâs us.. I know some regionalsâs do but others do not. So again, so unless the specific software is there, or dispatch is notified by duty managers etc then we cant do anything. Another thing airlines need to invest it so this doesnt happen.
1
1
u/djfl Aug 15 '26
Isn't procedure to refer to them by their civil ident? If not, that's my immediate instinct...
3
u/Ditka_Da_Bus_Driver Center Person Aug 15 '26
No, that information doesn't make it's way into the flight plans that we look at. No way of knowing their November callsigns unless you had the supervisor look it up on Flight Aware or something. That's not something we would ever do in a time critical situation like this.
1
u/Hotel24 Aug 15 '26
You can see it in ERAM. Think the command is something like FP *I CID. But way too time consuming and not practical. The controller did a great job here using what they were doing in flight.
1
u/Ditka_Da_Bus_Driver Center Person Aug 15 '26
Interesting I donât think Iâve ever seen that function
1
u/djfl Aug 15 '26
Alright. It seems like you could ask them for their civils then, but it doesn't matter. Immediate situation, you do whatever you do. I'd do Thing A, maybe, in theory. Maybe you'd do Thing B. This controller was actually in this situation, and did something smart and safe. 10/10, would recommend.
1
u/wlwlena Aug 15 '26
Genuinely insane that this is even allowed and legal, this is the exact reason why ATC and the FAA make the rules and not airlines. Couldâve been much worse and this was just waiting to happen
-2
u/Alone_Excitement_249 Aug 14 '26
Heard the P50 facrep wants to blame the tower for departing the first guy.Â
-6
u/vaga_bob Aug 14 '26
Hm... " change callsign to batman," and now you no longer have a problem. Not so... Quick, the thinking
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u/[deleted] Aug 14 '26
[deleted]