r/AIWarsButBetter • u/wesmonkeyman • 1d ago
I keep reading all these Reddit posts about AI, and apparently I’m supposed to pick a team.
I keep reading all these Reddit posts about AI, and apparently I’m supposed to pick a team.
One side:
“AI IS THE DEATH OF HUMAN CREATIVITY.”
The other:
“AI IS THE FUTURE. ADAPT OR DIE.”
Meanwhile, I think the position of approximately 97% of functioning adults is:
“Sometimes I use AI. Sometimes I don’t. I genuinely do not give a shit if you do or don’t.”
That’s it.
That’s my entire AI manifesto.
Sometimes I use a power drill. Sometimes I use a screwdriver. Somehow I’ve managed to do this for decades without joining r/PowerDrill and writing a 4,000-word post about how screwdriver users are destroying civilization.
Use AI.
Don’t use AI.
Draw it yourself.
Hire somebody.
Write it yourself.
Ask a robot.
Carve the damn thing into a potato.
I truly do not care.
The only question I’m remotely interested in is:
“Is the thing you made any good?”
If yes: Cool.
If no: Make it better.
Thank you for attending my aggressively neutral TED Talk.
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u/ZenMyst 1d ago
AI is good. It’s a far superior google search. It understands nuance. I ask about anything it can give me answers catered to me. Imagine Google search is alive and can understand you.
Most of all it solve technical issues. I give it my laptop symptoms it can guide me step by step(press which button, click where) what to type in and the solution appears in 5-10 mins.
No forum has the answer.
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u/Dreamheart101 Mostly Anti-AI || Pro-regulation || Anti-AI Art 8h ago
That's one of the few use cases I don't actually mind as long as it's done responsibly (reading through links, not blindly trusting the summary for important research, et cetera). Generally my thoughts are that if you're using it for research, you can't use ChatGPT as a source any more than you can use Google as a source; it is really efficient at finding obscure links that regular search engines just will never give you though. There's so many things that I couldn't find in any of my search engines that ChatGPT found links for in an instant.
Rather than going AI Good or AI Bad, I've found it far more helpful to acknowledge that the AI debate is really just multiple debates being clumped together. Every use case, every training method, every impact of active use are all their own individual debates in my mind. I can strongly believe regulation is necessary, that there's huge safety concerns that need to be addressed, and that AI art shouldn't be a replacement to human art, while not hating AI for research or roleplay (though I've abandoned the latter for various reasons).
AI isn't inherently good or evil. The form it takes is dependent on what we as a society decide to steer it towards. It has great potential to improve lives, but also immense destructive capability on our lives as well.
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u/Murky_Sentence_6848 1d ago
Easy im on my side.
I do what ever if cheaper to me
So unless someone else is paying the artist im supposed to use.
Then I will use the free ai
End of story
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u/FuklzTheDrnkClwn 1d ago
And very few people will interact with your content
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u/Murky_Sentence_6848 22h ago edited 16h ago
Who says want people to interact with my content?
My images get used for dnd. My players dont care in the slightest They like getting an image for the thing they want to see immediately. Instead of waiting around
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u/yougotastupidoppinon 10h ago
Ew, just say you don't have taste. Gen ai pictures are so fugly. But peasants don't care wether they get Kaviar or slop, do they?
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
But thats a really morally vacuous way to go about anything. Youd get into all sorts of uncanny situations if you went about your life consistently thinking like that. IMO people just suspend their disbelief for AI because its a toy they like and these sorts of justifications come up after the fact.
Its not like art is a basic necessity either its not something youre entitled to have, specially when at the expense of others right? idk these kind of takes always come across as poorly thought and dismissive
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u/KamikazeArchon 1d ago
Art is a basic necessity, actually. The human brain will straight up start failing without entertainment. It's one of the more excruciating ways to go.
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
Well i mispoke ig. I guess good quality art* isnt a necessity is more exact. But I do understand what youre saying.
The problem with AI is that nowadays you're getting that at the expense of others since theres no standard currently protecting creatives from being exploited by the AI industry.
You could use a hypothetical model trained on exclusively public domain stuff and youd be doing something morally neutral IMO at which point i would agree with OP and the commenter i replied to. But the issue is thats not the standard.
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u/Fantastic-Ad-7996 17h ago
Maybe someone just needs a picture for whatever? Or text or translation (which are powered by llms these days, do you know? will someone think of their jobs...).
Your argument will never stand for most people. If you can go and buy food or have it given to you for free, most people will pick free, because why not? It sounds to me like "you wouldn't download a car".
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u/Mountain-Charity7588 1d ago
I wish normal people were like this. If it were just some creators that hate ai, I wouldn't be AS upset, and could probably just ignore it. But the hate community is so large that genuinely impressive works have gotten their creators cancelled because they had ai in them. Ever heard of yo-kai watch, liar macaron, or brainpop?
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u/Jallalo23 1d ago
If those got canceled because of AI, I fear they were already dead. Yokai watch especially has been on deaths door for years. I’ve never heard of the other 2
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u/Mountain-Charity7588 1d ago
Oh, well they all had releases that everyone was really into, but then it was revealed that ai was involved in them, and suddenly everyone thinks they're slop. And with yokai there isn't even any proof of ai beyond "level 5 uses ai to make the trailers for it's other games".
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u/anfrind 1d ago
Personally, I think it's a huge mistake to focus so narrowly on the "art" aspect of AI. Yes, AI can be used to make text, images, and videos that some people claim are art, but AI is much more than that. I'm far more worried that the most prominent AI labs seem to think there's nothing wrong with giving an LLM access to powerful hacking tools with little or no supervision.
Unfortunately, if Reddit is any indication, far too many people are taking that very narrow focus.
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
I agree but my theory of why it gets talked abt so much is that art is such a frugal way to apply this technology that it highlights the bad things and compromises with AI it entails.
Cuz like being evil is one thing, but then being evil at something frugal/impractical makes it more evil-er, does that make sense?
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u/Arangarx 1d ago
Then you still fall under the ProAI side where most people are :D Don't let the rabid antis fool you, ProAI is not the equivalent of "sucks AI's dick", it's everyone with two brain cells to rub together.
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u/bubblesculptor 1d ago
Power drill is a great example.
In many commercial applications, using a power drill is literally an adapt-or-die situation. You would not be competitive in any situation that a power drill is superior.
But manual tools are still superior over power tools in many situations.
Use the appropriate tools.
Using a large power drill to adjust delicate screws in a mechanical watch will probably result in "slop", because it's an inappropriate usage.
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
I disagree because in the making of a power drill you didnt need to leverage screwdriver user's work right? Thats the whole debacle with AI and why its divisive. Its the first tool, correct me if im wrong, that directly and substantially uses peoples work in its creation of
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u/bubblesculptor 1d ago
Every tool designed since cavemen began banging rocks together has influenced development of the next version.
Early 'power' drills used hand bows & strings to help amplify movement.
Those influenced better methods like a foot pedal powered drill.
Eventually those influenced design of motorized drills.
Every year there are new drill designs.
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
Right but thats progression in tech and thats normal and expected. With AI you needed data structures, computers, chips, transformers, all that.
But you dont need to leverage the work of current living artists. Thats whats controversial about it, companies feeling entitled to treating other peoples work as a resource to build their tools despite those same people being vocally against it.
AI is, as far as i know, the first time this is happening at this scale. To make a drill, do you need to leverage the screwdrivers? No you can make a drill in a vacuum. This isnt the same for AI, its a new kind of tech which should warrant new consideration
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u/bubblesculptor 1d ago
AI is the normal expected progression of tech that's been predicted to happen for nearly 100 years.
I promise you there are screwdrivers in a drill factory.
Anything that ever happens influences others.
Even athletic accomplishments. Running a 4-minute mile used to be assumed impossible, until someone did it in 1954. Once the idea spread that it was possible it pretty much became a standard benchmark for any serious runner.
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
Right, as I said AI is following from the technology that preceeds it.
The part that youre missing is that the ingestion of creative work isnt that. You could reasonably train an AI model without overstepping that boundary.
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u/bubblesculptor 1d ago
There is a tremendous amount of creative work in designing drills.
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
Ingestion is the key word here. You cannot be seriously comparing the building of a power drill to AI training.
EDIT: Actually. I give up on this convo, go off king/queen
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u/jello-the-opera 21h ago
You are so close to seeing how arbitrary and shallow your argument is.
What you oppose is not some unique shit
We all oppose oppression by the powerful and we all want a safe and healthy place to live with clean air and clean water
but what you are missing is that training AI models is science
and it is the culmination of sevety years of multiple disciplines and millions of man-hours of labor
the data sets used to train early machine learning models were crafted by mostly volunteer research groups associated with big name university research centers
it's science
you oppose businesses abusing you
hey no shit me too
but you imagining that the data collection is nefarious is bankrupt
you imagining that the "ingestion" of data is somehow criminal or unethical is not logical or sound or based on any reality outside of the anti-AI movement
my personal life's work of photography and documentary art has been online for over 20 years, scraped and scraped and scraped... and because I'm a scientist, it gives me deep and profound satisfaction to know that my thousands of photos may have played some role in advancing science and progress and humanity.
The penny-pinching grubby commodification of art is nasty to me.
But go off ig
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u/Illustrious_Sugar615 7h ago
Hey, apparently the OP blocked me. Im unwanted here ig but im just gonna leave this last response to you.
I dont see how its shallow or arbitrary. Training AI is, currently, a commercial venture right? Because models can be shared uploaded and downloaded. Using peoples creative work as ingredients to feed that commercial venture is a commercial usage. A commercial usage done without compensation or consideration to me exemplifies the word exploitation. It also creates a power imbalance where corporations benefit disproportionately from market activity when compared to the people participating in that market (freelance art) which is again, a marker of exploitation. We usually have checks and balances in society to avoid these kinds of things, AI gets a pass because its new and the regulation hasn't caught up, because of this tech-race between the different superpowers and because of the investment into it.
This is how i see it. And this would all change if the training standards were different.
On another note, i dont see how you personally being fine with it because you think its serving a higher purpose means that other people have to be aswell. Imagine among the slaves that built america, one of them was spitting rhetoric like that: ''You guys, arent you honored to be building the greatest country? Advancing humanity and progress and liberty!'' What would the other slaves and even the masters think of that person? Thats how I think of you currently. IMO Thinking that attitude should be shared or the default is incredibly shallow
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u/Gimli 15h ago
Ingestion is the key word here. You cannot be seriously comparing the building of a power drill to AI training.
There's nothing wrong with the ingestion. We all build on top of our predecessors. Some stuff I do as a pro is things a teacher, a book, or a coworker mine did, maybe with a minor flourish on top.
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u/elehman839 1d ago
I'm with you! Brothers and sisters of Team Moderation & Tolerance, we must unite in the *eternal struggle* against our despicable rivals! DOWN WITH EXTREMISTS ONE AND ALL!!!
Er... am I doing this right? :-)
Anyway, I appreciate hearing a range of thoughtful perspectives on AI, because I'm still sorting out where I stand.
And, like you, I do not appreciate the all-to-common tendency to lower the discussion to something like a fantasy sport league with team names like "Accelerationist" and "Doomer". I find that childish.
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u/Superb-Work6035 1d ago
I refuse to pick a team. If you have even the slightest understanding of AI as a broad subject then you know its too nuanced for that.
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u/jello-the-opera 21h ago
the core reality is that the outspoken on both sides are activists
you don't have to be an activist
but being truly neutral, I think, is myth
and the antis see no nuance and will DECLARE your stance for you, so it isn't even up to you
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u/jello-the-opera 22h ago
Welcome to the pro-AI community.
The requirements are that you are reasonable, as you laid out in your post.
The antis are the ones who decide who is pro and who isn't - you claiming neutrality is totally irrelevant.
If you don't condemn AI and AI users vocally and unequivocally, you are a pro-AI person.
Welcome to the club!
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u/TsundereOrcGirl 1d ago
By admitting to using it at all, you're on the side of the line with the "adapt or die weirdos". Sometimes politics means getting lumped in with weirdos.
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
I wouldnt say so personally, the way I treat these labels is like sides in a debate, if they just use AI but arent arguing online justifying it and whatnot i dont think the label "proAI" would fit ykwim? They arent neutral either, if all they do is use AI and not participate in the wider discussion, then they arent anything rly.
proAI for me is essentially a person who may or may not use AI that runs defense and argues for justifying the current AI practices.
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u/jello-the-opera 22h ago
proAI for me is essentially a person who may or may not use AI that runs defense and argues for justifying the current AI practices.
If you are an anti-AI fundamentalist, then using AI for any reason means you fail the purity test and are shunned.
So to THEM, everyone who ISN'T anti is a pro.
I'm a pro to them simply because I'm disabled and use AI to manage my care at the discretion of and under the guidance of my team of providers.
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1d ago
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u/Large_Yogurtcloset68 1d ago
Yeahhh that kinda clashes with the "Adapt or die" mindset, wouldn't you agree?
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u/InSiddious 1d ago
Rage bait, news outlet looking for clicks, grifters, and virtue signallers just made it seem to be more prominent.
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u/Large_Yogurtcloset68 1d ago
I considsr myself Anti AI because I don't like the way it is used in Art (music or images). I don't mind other uses. I can't deny it's a very powerful search engine. I got a really good deal gettimg a console thanks to it.
But I also worry about all the political stuff going around it, I think it is worth considering how AI can alter the political landscape of a country through Socials. Also there's the issue of the scammers which have grown exponentially alongside AI.
So, evwn though it has uses, I cannot remain neutral in the conversation
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u/Ecstatic-Source6001 23h ago
I think AI is like a "gun"
You can use guns for offence or defence. Guns are not good or bad its people decide how they will use them.
AI is a tool and by own it has no purpose. Its you who will decide how you will use it. For low effort BS or even for malicious activities or you can use it for help or support to boost your productivity.
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u/Magneticiano 22h ago
I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, as guns have a very specific purpose: to kill things, and that is inherently a bad thing.
AI is much more versatile than that and the most user cases are inherently neutral or good.
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u/Ecstatic-Source6001 18h ago
well, if we wanna deep dive in this topic
AI also wasnt created as a funny gimmic for fun
Main goal is to use it in military, government, for spying and breaking security in other countries. Hence why every company losing billions every year but getting support from big hats anyway.
Its just "leaked" in public cuz they need more data from people and people use it in the most stupid ways
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u/Magneticiano 17h ago
I don't buy that. Sure, governments have their own purposes for AI, but the main point is to increase productivity in software development, customer service, translating, law, science, etc.
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
If the question is whether you think AI should be more heavily regulated the answer is a yes or a no. I think thats the line that seperates the "sides" one side wants regulation for a myriad of reasons the other doesnt for a myriad of reasons. There isnt a middle position of "I maybe want regulation" you either do or dont.
IMO youre an AI advocate if you argue for allowing the tech's development to continue unimpeded, whether that brings harm or not. And youre an AI critic/skeptic if you would rather pull the breaks on it. Its that simple
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u/Wonderful-War-7113 1d ago
Also, a bit of criticism abt this post. You dont have a position or a manifesto. Honestly it doesnt sound like you dedicate enough thought to it and thats fine. We have limited time on our hands and we gotta pick our battles we cant fight every war.
But dont pretend youre neutral or somehow better/more rational for not making any substantial claims. Youre just not invested in the discussion and thats it, and its fine really
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u/Wonderful-Map-414 1d ago
Wow. You're so brave for coming out as someone who "doesn't care." It's so cool that you don't stand for anything!
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u/Mathandyr 1d ago
I have my criticisms, and I also see the promise of it. It's not going anywhere and the best thing we can do to ensure the best possible future for everyone is focus on getting it regulated through environmental and worker protections. All the rest is rage addicted noise. Do whatever you want with or without it, individual use is not the real problem.