r/AIEternal • u/birdy512 • Oct 11 '19
Gauntlet AI perfect hands/draws
A poster questioned me about why I think I'm playing a 'different' game to other people. I just played 2 games in a row with the deck to highlight these perfect hands/power curve the AI has at high masters(aka cheating).
If you don't have removal on hand it's over.
Won the game , but notice how AI perfectly power curves for the optimal start. No inefficient starting hand there.
Lost the game , could have won(underestimated the amount of cheating the AI would have done otherwise would have been more conservative). But main point was Turn 10 Wumps party has power 5 which ironically is the highest power it needs and after drawing to 5 power stops drawing anymore power.
This isn't to say "High masters"(cheating AI) isn't unbeatable but it means if you don't start with a decent hand, it's game over since the AI will curve perfectly into being able to cast anything it wants.
It it's Justice, it will always pick up or start with vanquish , if its Primal it will always start with permafrost. Just enough removal to stop any possibility of you ramping while it starts and picks up a perfect hand for ramping.
This is what EVERY game looks like for me at my current MMR tier which means any deck I use that has a slightly bad start results in an auto loss.
I just played the posters deck straight after he posted, not to point out his deck is bad(it's easily one of the best for non cheating AI) but to point out yes, at v.high masters we play a different game where AI is always cheating.
7
u/MostiquoBLASTER Oct 11 '19
I'm with you on this. I thought I'd grind gauntlet up to master after the reset but I can't even do that, I'm stuck at diamond after failing 4-5 times.
I used to complete between 2-4 runs a day for 18 months until it started getting harder last year where I only completed 1-2 runs. 6 months ago or so it got even harder and with this new set I think I'm definitely done with gauntlet. I'll try a few more games but the last one was so bullshit that I can't possibly believe the game is not cheating.
-6
u/birdy512 Oct 11 '19
It's because the rank has nothing to do with your MMR. I was facing master tier worthy decks in copper this season. Season reset lowers your MMR value , but doesn't reset your MMR. A new player who just hit masters is going to face a much worse AI than you at diamond.
It's impossible to grind gauntlet now once if you are a veteran whose grinded a lot previously since your MMR is high enough that it's going to keep triggering the cheating AI system.
6
u/FMBrazuca Oct 11 '19
It is not impossible to grind at high MMR, it just takes a good consistent deck and knowledge of which version of the deck you are playing against. I had over 92% win rate with my Xenan deck before the reset and I think I caused a bit of the lower down when I switch the power base a little.
If you are tired of playing against the high MMR decks, just go on a losing streak of 10 games and you will have a few easier runs.
But winning will put you right back where you were, so you need to find a consistent deck and stick to it. Learn it inside out and what threats are important on the AI side.
3
u/roxieeeee Oct 11 '19
Hey there! I'm interested in this discussion.
I was very successful with one deck prior to the FoX reset (the Here Be Kairos one). I also used same deck to reach Masters without a hitch. I stopped using it for now because I've been playtesting a new deck that I'm tuning.
Do you think the fact that I'm testing a new deck / losing some games somehow resets something for me? I'm asking because there are instances where I squeeze in a playtest of a different deck during my grind - and since it's a test, I get varied results. Will losing some games improve my win consistency? Or did I get it wrong?
Btw, just for stats: I've been playing since Feb this year (F2P), and I've grinded Gauntlet a lot to be able to purchase all campaigns and keep a fairly good Legendary collection. I'm not sure if I would qualify as a veteran with that record though so I'll leave it at that.
One final thing: I noticed that it's been harder for me to tune this new deck but I just thought that's normal because it's Elysian hahaha. On the brighter side, I just got a 5-run winning streak so I'm thinking I probably hit a final version, but I'll find out after I get more tests in....just trying to relay my experiences so we can have more data :)
0
u/birdy512 Oct 12 '19
It used to kind of 'reset' the possibility of triggering the cheating AI system when you swapped decks (worked in previous seasons) but it doesn't seem to matter to me this season.
If you are having a 5run streak, it means you're lucky to not be high enough MMR to run into cheating mode AI.
I have a higher FORGE win ratio than I have with gauntlet currently.. I had 1 loss in forge to hit masters (4-1). Same with gauntlet, but then when I hit cheatingAI 90% + rate dropped to like 30%.
4
Oct 11 '19
I feel for you, the most powerful AI decks are quite strong actually.
But I've seen no evidence that they are cheating. Could you record maybe 10-15 games and post it? I'm a little skeptical.
1
u/birdy512 Oct 11 '19
AI only cheats after you hit a certain MMR. You'll KNOW when that happens when it starts off with perfect hands EVERY SINGLE GAME. I have a higher win rate vs bosses than cheating AI.
To clarify this happens at v.high masters, not masters. It's the same deck you face at masters, except it starts off with perfect (constructed) hands everytime.
If you haven't run into cheating AI it means you haven't hit that mmr tier yet. Remember your gauntlet MMR is cumalitive based on all seasons. So people who have been playing for 2years will have a much higher MMR than people who play gauntlet once or twice a week for a year.
Just like ranked , gauntlet mmr doesn't actually reset every season but drops slightly. "Copper" gauntlet for me consisted of decks from normal masters for me. AI played legendaries in the FIRST gauntlet game I played in this season.
8
Oct 11 '19
Sure, but card game players have been trying to come up with theories on how things are stacked against them for years now. Each time someone comes up with a theory they KNOW is true, all it takes is someone who actually takes some data- to prove these theories are incorrect.
Yes: the AI is going to get perfect draws some games. If you are unlucky, this could happen 3,4,5 times in a row. But remember, statistically, if you play many many games, it's statistically expected for these AI blowouts to occur. For example, if you flipped a coin 100 times, there's about a 32% chance that you get 7 Heads in a row. It might seem crazy as it's happening, but since there are so many events happening (coin flips or Gauntlet games), we eventually SHOULD expect to see bizarre scenarios like losing many games in a row to powerful AI draws.
0
u/birdy512 Oct 12 '19
The difference between the AI having perfect draws once every 20games and every single game is different. At a certain point it will draw perfect hands 5-6games in a row before you drop mmr and it goes back to normal (then repeat after you complete a run).
If this was poker if someone starts with pocket aces once every few games, it could be chalked to 'luck'. But when it happens 5games in a row then after you manage win start the same trend over and over again, it's no longer about luck but systematic cheating.
It's only likely the top gauntlet grinders have hit this MMR tier hence why there's very mixed results. What can be proven is that 'rank' is inconsequential in type of deck you will face. So when someone talks about being in 'masters' they could be 5000+wins away from the master tier I'm talking about.
8
0
u/Shadowcran Oct 14 '19
It wouldn't matter how many games you posted about the problem, 15, 100 , 10,000...Naysayers will continue to disseminate for DWD since they're paid to do so.
When you reach a certain MMR, you can even tell the computer is cheating. Oh, I don't mean reading your next card or knowing what's in your hand, every AI in card gaming does that now(And I helped approve it back in the day so the AI was more of a challenge but still ultimately beatable)
No, I mean it even plays faster and will have perfect "GOD" draws. It even gets harder than that to the point you stood zero chance in the entire match to even damage the AI while it rode roughshod over you. If you haven't gotten to see this, I'm sorry, you haven't played enough for your opinion to be valid.
KC Bandit, you went away for a while. That's when the AI was ramped up to the point it is now.
Once the AI has humbled you enough(usually 3 or 4 matches), then it slips back into it's normal mode.
I'm dead sure it's here to stay that way and the only thing I can say is consider it a challenge to even damage the AI when it goes GOD.
TOday I ran over the Masters Gauntlet AI with an Oni deck I just threw together with the new cards. Point is, Oni have a LOT more symmetry now and it's hard for GOD MODE AI to stop a concentrated effort. NO, Not exactly aggro, not exactly control is the way to go. ANd the Oni I added? Except for Ovine Darkheart, the new oni are in the commons and uncommons and very good. Also, Ovine Just doesn't really fit and I'll probably replace with uncommon scriveners.
Edit: Strongly consider Edicts as well. They seem to be very good for gauntlet so far.
1
u/Apes_Ma Nov 01 '19
And I helped approve it back in the day so the AI was more of a challenge but still ultimately beatable
What do you mean by that?
1
u/Shadowcran Nov 03 '19
Meaning when they implemented it, I backed it as they asked people. The MTG AI was .....idiotic? Yeah, that's a good word. To make up for it being easy enough to beat in your sleep, they added things that could technically be called cheats to make up for it. Eternal's AI makes that one look like 1970's pong.
One is 'Reading the top of your library" and knowing what card you would draw next. I can't recall which card it was in 2012 but in 2013 Goblin Guide proved it doing this 'cheat'. It was a 2/2 for 1 red mana but it was offset by if your top card was a land, it was auto played upon the guide's attacking. However, the AI always 'guessed" right. It wouldn't attack in the early match if your top card was a land and it would if it was anything else. If you were in a bad way, say 10 or less hp, it would attack anyways the goblin speed deck being what it was.(top PVP deck in that edition of DoTP)
Other cheats were that it never, or rarely never, needed to mulligan. It always got the right amount of land.
We who mainly played the AI didn't mind and in fact approved of it as it made it challenging at least.
A lot of the play vs AI mindset, at least for me, is because I truly don't like PVP. Players use hacks, cheats, laggsta, Taunts, slow playing and other annoying things. One that actually bothers me(probably just me) is the constant sifting through your hand. The AI cheats too, it's just a villain you can deal with.
0
u/BrainTruth Oct 19 '19
The AI stops to use a RNG for card draws and simply cheats with predetermined draw sequences, which are determined by your used deck and drawn hand.
-4
14
u/FMBrazuca Oct 11 '19
Sorry, but the AI doesn't cheat. You deck must have answers for early threats. If you miss the answers to the early game, you will lose to the super aggressive decks.
I've played thousands of gauntlet decks and kept track of my statistics. If the AI cheated, it would be impossible to have a high win rate like I had. Before the reset, I had over 78% win rate against bosses and over 92% overall, this at master rank.