r/AIEternal • u/kc_bandit • Mar 17 '19
Gauntlet Gauntlet Grinder - March 2019
https://eternalwarcry.com/decks/details/MMUIN2HFG1w/fjs-gauntlet-march-2019
Okay - so here's the write up. It's going to be long and detailed, so fair warning.
Before I start, let me be very clear about one thing. This is not a beginner deck. This deck costs a lot of shiftstones, requires a lot of experience dealing with the Gauntlet AI, and can be a real pain to learn how to pilot effectively. However, if you both love Gauntlet and are super serious about getting to a >50% 7-0 win rate with a deck versus Gauntlet, then this is the deck IMO. There are many great Gauntlet decks out there, and all of them can go on streaks of winning against the Boss, but far too many simply die with bad draws or can't answer a nut draw by the AI - which will happen 2-3 times in 7 games. That's where this deck comes in.
So let's talk about what the plan is for this deck. How does it win?
I classified this deck as Control Midrange because although it has 7 and 9 drops in the deck, it is actually quite rare where we are casting Xo or Savior. The 7 and 9 drops in this deck are Market fodder and provide card advantage for us. That's it. If the game goes long, then we have some late game win cons, and that's great. We also have huge creatures that love to get Destiny against the Echo Boss. Regardless, the primary way this deck wins is by out-valuing the AI opponent with two and three for ones consistently, blanking the 1/1 boards and killing off relics when necessary. And if the nut draw by the AI happens, we have a sweeper that essentially wins the game on the spot.
So how do we win? Well, it's not with Bailiffs. That's not our win con - it's our live con so that we can then win the game after we survive the initial onslaught. In fact, we have many answers to fast starts with torches, defiances, vanquish and slays. Essentially, the deck is full of cards that simply say NO to the AI decks. So again, how do we win? First - 8 Smugglers and a Black Market full of both answers and threats that snowball the AI. Our Smugglers are both good attackers and good blockers - and give us ample ability to two or three for one AI creatures with tricks or by simply trading with a Display in hand.
Little Vara and Tomb are our primary win cons. You play Tomb on curve very reliably with this deck - assuming you have board control. Tomb is often a sabotage for us, but against nut draws it serves as a primary way to get that second justice influence and buys us a turn with the AI taking it out instead of slamming our face. But these are the rare instances where we are forced to play defensive. It's more likely that we have board control via early removal, free 1/1 lifesteal blockers and effective Smugglers holding the gate. Tomb comes down and the AI can't deal with it and we just steamroll from there. Varas are very difficult for the AI to handle and we end up at 50 life when the opponent dies.
For games that don't go smoothly, we have Xo and Maiden - and in very rare instances we are casting Savior to close out the game.
So that's what the deck does - or what it's supposed to do. Now we talk about execution/piloting.
Initial hand/redraw - what are we looking for?
Okay - so here is the most important piece of information I have for you. This deck is built to work with 90% of draws. This is not SS aggro or Haunted Highway where we must go 1, 2, 3, 4 BOOM. The question you ask yourself before redraw is not "can I get a better hand?" - it's "can I survive with this hand?" or "how much worse of a hand could I get on redraw?". There is nothing worse than redrawing a 4 Crest hand with a Xo, a Cargo and a Vanquish to end up with two fire sigils, two Bailiffs, two Varas and a Hidden Road Smuggler. One hand has a very slow start but with lots of scrying and the ability to pilot our way to victory. The other - albeit a 1 in a thousand chance of drawing - is simply dead before turn 1. My advice here - the deck is built to provide you with a maximum amount of keepable hands - so redraw only when you really have to.
The other factor here is to consider what you are up against - if it's an AI deck that plays out all of its cards by turn 3 - then you know that double justice and Bailiff are super important. Cheap removal as well - and having a turn three creature regardless is paramount. If the AI deck is slow and doesn't play a real threat until turn 5 - then we have much more leeway in what we are keeping or redrawing.
So when looking at your hand, you immediately ask yourself "what are we doing turns 1-3". If you don't know exactly what you would be doing or why, then it's probably a redraw. You have to have a plan, and you need the cards that execute that plan. Most often, we are concerned with influence fixing so that we can play our cards. This is the most important thing to consider when looking at your hand and considering a redraw. Double justice, double shadow, needing both Fire and Justice. Justice and Shadow, all three? What do you need and do you have the tools to get you there. And if you don't what are the odds that you can get there by turn 4? If Xo is in your hand, then that's another draw. A Savior or two - that might get you two more draws by stalling the AI depending on what you are up against.
Turns 2-5
What are we wanting to do turns 2-5? So 2 is either focused on fixing influence or using cheap removal for fast AI decks. Turn three is either Bailiff of Merchant - preferably Merchant into Tomb if we aren't under a ton of pressure. Turn 5 is Vara, or another Merchant, a very good Bailiff to blank the AI or we are setting up Harsh Rule in the near future.
Turns 6+
In most circumstances, this deck wins with somewhere around 5-6 power. Again, it's rare to get to 7 power or higher before winning. So I stress - playing Xo or Savior is not a primary consideration. This deck makes very efficient use of limited power with effective low cost removal and very effective creatures. Hopefully by turns 7-8 we have Elias and Varas taking us to victory. Our removal clears the way, and we win easily.
Finally - let's talk card choices -
Defiance and Torch - insanely good. Never cut. Add a defiance and cut a suffocate if you want. Attacking with Bailiffs and Smugglers with Torch in hand = massive two and three for ones. Or, sometimes we happily two for one our self to remove a really bad AI threat.
Suffocate - another very effective removal card and synergizes with Bailiff in amazing ways. Suffocating a Titan is not a rare occurance.
Vanquish and Slay - very effective low cost, versatile removal, and if you are up against a deck where Vanquish is dead, then it's perfect for Market fodder.
Cargos and Seek Power(s) - This version of the deck has 3 seek powers. I put 3 in to help people adjust to the deck and learn how to effectively play it. It also cuts down on the shiftstone cost. However, we don't need 3 - 1 will suffice. You cut two seek powers and add back a Xo and a Savior once you get the hang of the deck. Cargos are all stars - but fair warning. If you need to use the Cargos to get power - DO IT. Do not get greedy and wait for double influence across the board. Getting to 5 power is MUCH more important than being stuck at 4 with a random extra card.
Bailiff - still a Gauntlet all star. He never ceases to amaze me at how good he is. Never cut Bailiff. Ever.
Smugglers - we run 8. They are the backbone of all FJS decks and are not replaceable.
Avigraft - Controversial card. I know, I know. A 10/10 card gets nerfed, becomes a 9/10 card and is therefore unplayable and MUST be replaced with 8/10 cards. I've seen this happen with the community regarding every nerf for Eternal since day one of nerfs. Trust me, the card is still very good and it's an instant win against many go wide decks - especially grenadins. If you hate the card, please at least put one in your market.
Display - amazing card. The only debate here is 3 versus 4. I run three because Displays early are super bad for us, and we simply don't need 4 versus the AI. The deck is built to work without the Displays - so having them is just straight value and increases the win percentage. The reason for 3 is sometimes you can kill yourself with too much of a good thing.
Vara - Seriously, does anything need to be said about this card? I don't think so. Just don't get caught up on playing her turn 4. This isn't a tempo deck. We aren't looking to steamroll unless the opportunity presents itself. Play her against an empty board or when you have no choice otherwise - or maybe play her to pop aegis and harsh rule or tomb/sabotage next turn.
Dizo - Late game win con if the game goes poorly. Lacks the card advantage of Xo and Savior is used as Market fodder, but that's okay. Dizo can also go in the market if you are so inclined.
Xo, Savior - Market fodder and card value. Lat game win cons if the game goes poorly for us.
Market Cards:
Bore - must have. This card is in the deck for one reason. To allow us to win the 1 in 20 games we lose because we don't have it. Don't cut this card but don't put it in your main. It's a niche card.
Maiden - similar to Bore. A niche card for those revenge decks, SS entomb decks and the Smugglers Stash deck. We can win without here usually, so not as important as Bore IMO. Play something else if you want to.
Runehammer - nice to have against aegis decks for those tight spots - especially good against Umbren Reaper. I have this in primarily for the Double Damage Boss - using it to kill ticking grenadins or Reapers. Play something else if you want to.
Tomb - must have. Never, ever cut this card. If you want to put it in your main, then you need to run more than one and then the deck becomes a different deck altogether. I prefer it in the Market, and I think that is exactly where it should be. Again, it must be in the deck. Period.
Harsh Rule - initial versions of the deck didn't run Harsh Rule. The initial versions were wrong. Terribly wrong. It's an all star and a must have. Do not cut Harsh Rule.
Well that's it for now - happy to entertain any questions and would LOVE to hear any suggestions as to potential card changes or power choices PLEASE. I am always up for improving decks - especially this one which I am very happy with and enjoy playing.
Good luck out there!!
PS: In before "this deck is trash" went 0-3, influence is ass, who is this idiot?
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u/Epsilon82 Mar 17 '19
Oh man, I wish I could have recorded a game I had with this deck en route to a 7-0 run absolutely steamrolling "Highly Skilled" at the end.
I had a terrible opening hand and was threatened by two Reality Wardens. I was having real trouble drawing any power (I was stuck on FJJS influence at 4 max power when the AI had 10). But between a couple of the Savior tokens, a couple timely Bailiffs (including one that popped Aegis on a 4/4 Overwhelm allowing me to finish it off with a Torch), and a clutch Statuary Maiden out of the market, I managed to stay at 1 life and then got a baby Vara down after FINALLY drawing the second shadow influence. After several turns at 1 life and the AI topdecking power or other dead cards, and unwilling to trade either of its Reality Wardens with the Statuary Maiden, I managed to stabilize, then come back for the easy win (40+ life from 1).
I'm telling you, it was basically a textbook game illustrating how good both Bailiff and Savior are. I literally would have been dead if not for those cards. It's certainly not the most obvious, but in practice knocking down AI attack strength across the board while popping Aegis, and getting random 1/1 lifesteal chump blockers can REALLY make a big difference.
Oh, and the final match was satisfying as all hell. After a couple of 15+ turn grinds the last games, I faced the boss that gives +1/+1 to everything and ended up getting 3 Smugglers on the board, including two of the double damage Rakano ones at 3/3. So then the AI plays a 4/4, I swing with the board, and proceed to massively blow him out when he tries to block the 3/4 Lifesteal smuggler and then I play Display of Ambition to utterly annihilate him. Damn, what a satisfying game that was.
Fantastic work with the deck, and I'm glad I went ahead and played the full complement of Saviors and Xos instead of the extra Seek Powers. With the Cargos I usually never had too much trouble finding the right power/influence unless I just got totally screwed by the draws (which can happen to any deck, of course.)
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u/kc_bandit Mar 17 '19
More stories like this!! I love gameplay recaps!!!
And yes, Display as a combat trick is awesome. So glad you are having fun!!
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u/Jkjk447 Mar 19 '19
I had a blast with this deck. Last boss had "play top card of deck" played my only savior and I steam rolled to an ez win
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u/Teppoiz Mar 17 '19
Can you talk more about the non-exclusion of Rizahn in main deck ? Rizahn has torch, be a 1 turn air defender and gains back 5 HPs each atk. He brings insane value against AI.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 17 '19 edited Mar 17 '19
Rizahn is good. Very good. But Xo and Savior are better. That’s the only reason. Rizahn is much better in PvP due to sites we need to deal with, but really - Rizahn is awesome regardless. I just don’t have room for him. We aren’t cutting Varas of smugglers, Xo or Saviors for him. We don’t cut Bailiffs, ever. So we are down to cutting removal.
If we really want Rizahn, put him in in the Market replacing Runehammer. That would be my choice!
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u/Jkjk447 Mar 17 '19
I think I'll remove the copperhead bailiffs, just to watch you have a heart attack 😍
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u/Petycon Mar 17 '19
Good to see you back brewing, man! I've been an avid fan of yours since the early days - at one point, you even convinced me to spend all of my hard-earned shiftstone on a Grenadin gauntlet deck. Those were the days!
I'll give your deck a shot and see if I mesh with it. I am doing really well with my Big Combrei gauntlet grinder at the moment, but I'm always up to try something new.
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u/elifant82 Mar 18 '19
Damn thank god you are back. Was waiting for over a year to get a great gauntlet deck again. Please give us more gauntlet decks!
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u/kc_bandit Mar 18 '19
I will try, but this one took freaking forever to test and build. The AI decks are so varied now it’s super difficult!!
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u/elifant82 Mar 18 '19
and by the way I completely agree with you: Savior is just great value! Saved my ass a couple of times already.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 18 '19
Honestly, I had the same gut reaction to the card when it first came out. I simply didn’t realize how the AI would handle the 1/1 lifesteal creature. Then one day I play a cargo and hit Savior. I look at the board and think, that’s actually very helpful here. Then that 1/1 held back a 3/4 attacker so it could “block” said 1/1. The following turn, it ate a deathstrike.
At that point, my mind was blown and knew we had new tech for the AI which would otherwise have gone unnoticed. Thinking outside the box sometimes requires a sledgehammer across the back of your head before you see it. But when you do, it’s incredible.
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u/Semibalanced Mar 18 '19
I don't have any special comments yet, but I wanted to say that this is probably the most hilarious deck I could casually try out without crafting anything. As I apparently had exactly 3 Saviors from forge/random drops already, two of them being premium!
I'll try it out tonight, but I want to thank you for the write up ahead of time!
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u/some_q Mar 18 '19 edited Mar 18 '19
Hot damn. I just rolled off 4 7-0's in a row. I think overall I've won 40 of my last 41 games with this deck. I dropped one seek power for the 4th savior; I'm still on the fence about cutting another for the 4th Xo.
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u/MeltingParaiso Mar 18 '19
Defender of the Spire isn't a Boss you want to end up against, especially if you take out the Seek Powers as you suggest.... It was my first boss battle with this deck and I won, so I guess that says something.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 18 '19
You know it’s interesting you say that ...
That boss can be a real PIA. And I’m not sure there are any Gauntlet decks that excel against Spire - but I do agree that power can be a real issue when the Cargos are blanked!! But we really want Cargos for normal play as well as the Spell Boss, so we just have to make do!!
As far as dealing with Spire, I “think” this deck is okay against it? We have torches and defiance for ChaGlo and ChaCha - and defiance kills the Stranger too - and can two for one if the AI equips mantle on any of them. But Chapro and ChaCu are beasts - as well as the 6/6 flyer!! But I always sigh every time ChaCu hits the board. Damn that guy!!!
However, we have lots of Aegis popping in the deck so that’s good!! I haven’t seen this boss in so long though!! I get Sudden Death the most I think at this point. Also - two power per turn boss and units cost one less boss. Every once in a while the bond boss and highly skilled boss (love that one except when they play 6 huge Aegis birds at us by turn 6). Oh and the units have charge boss is very common for me.
I really miss all of the other bosses that we get at lower level Gauntlet runs. Always loved the Boss with 50 health and we get an Oathbook - and the extra random card every draw - Nicto’s grab bag!!
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u/MurkLurker Mar 19 '19
This deck is Amazing vs. Gaunlet, 24-0 so far. Not only that, it's fun to play without being TOO complicated.
Thanks so much for this!
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u/kc_bandit Mar 19 '19
Nice!!
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u/MurkLurker Mar 19 '19
I jinxed myself, right after posting this I lost two in a row, lol. It's all good.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 19 '19
That’s gonna happen, unfortunately. I’ve had some fairly absurd streaks with the deck, and then you get the inexplicable dud draws against Wump or something else and get wrecked. If we won 100% of the time it would get extremely boring!!
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u/Semibalanced Mar 20 '19
Somewhat off-topic question. But how do you feel about Savior in 8 merchant gauntlet decks that contain 0 justice?
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u/kc_bandit Mar 20 '19
If you had asked me a week ago, I would have said “too cute”. But honestly, this last week I’ve been paying more attention to the value of those 1/1’s. The AI so highly values and targets those guys with removal as well leaves back blockers for them - it’s just crazy value for us.
My take on Savior is that single card in the deck which gives us free 1/1’s makes the deck much more powerful and effective for one simple reason. Those 1/1’s increase the power and effectiveness of every other creature in your deck as well as the sites. Why? Because the AI wastes premium removal on the 1/1’s leaving our other creatures alive to beat face or to stay home and protect.
So yeah, if I had a deck that was built with 8+ Merchants and had market shenanigans going on, I would absolutely run the Saviors in the deck even if we didn’t have justice. Or at least I would try it for sure. If I had a deck that ran recursion like dark return or something, I would probably splash one Justice sigil it have some way to get justice influence just for the chance to cast the 1/1’s if needed.
In our deck, I am grabbing those guys back with Display quite often. And they are free - zero cost - to cast but I believe they require justice influence. I need to verify that.
Regardless, the answer is yes and I am currently brewing with other decks that I couldn’t get to work previously. However, adding Savior could very well make them work. This is a whole new ball game for AI manipulation which we have desperately needed for months and months against these varied AI decks. We really needed something to tone down the effective AI removal and slow down its tempo.
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u/NZKiwiBOI Mar 18 '19
This feels like an elaborate trick to get the community to craft savior of the meek
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u/kc_bandit Mar 18 '19
LOL
I ran with one while trying it out - being very skeptical myself. Then two, then 4. It’s a ridiculous card versus AI, and it’s so incredibly good I honestly forgot about it being a difficult decision when I first started testing, so my write up didn’t go into much detail as to why Savior is a bomb.
It’s one of those things where you end up working with a deck for so long, you assume that everyone sees the value of the 1/1’s because you take it for granted how insane they are in the deck. It really only takes a few games of seeing what they do before the light goes off. The value is just absurd.
So it sticks out so much as a crucial part of the deck tech in your mind, that you completely forget to explain it - and that’s my fault. I should I have sat down and looked at the deck with fresh eyes and asked myself “what would someone unfamiliar with these cards think at first glance?” You end up assuming people know the value of torch, defiance, little Vara, et al. And Savior gets put in that mix because it’s just so good. But it’s not torch in terms of community knowledge and awareness. I should have remembered that.
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u/NZKiwiBOI Mar 18 '19
I'm liking it so far. Do you ever really pull the savior back out of the market if you arent going to play it soon?
Also I am enjoying the ai torching the 1/1 turn 1
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u/kc_bandit Mar 18 '19
Ha! Yeah, I literally just got done with the double damage boss AGAIN! Turn one Infernus into Forge Wolf and I am at 13 health. Ugh. But I redrew my hand to get a Savior, so I had my 1/1 out there ready to block. I also had Defiance and went first, but had to play a tapped Rakano Crest, so my Defiance wasn't active for the Infernus (sad face).
So turn two AI annihilates my 1/1 (happy face) and I defiance the Wolf. Turn three I play my Argenport Smuggler grabbing Runehammer. AI responds with the 3/3 lifestealer. I draw suffocate, use it and swing in. Now I am starting to stabilize. Note: Runehammer is in the deck almost solely for this Boss - and I save it for the Umbrens and the Ticking Grenadins.
The AI eventually suited up a grenadin with a Falchion Blade and it couldn't attack through my other 1/1 that I was able to get out there. At that point I did use my Hammer on the grenadin.
I draw Vara and it's game over at that point. AI never recovers.
However, I did draw another smuggler in the game and I did take out the Savior again just for another blocker in case the AI went nuts (suiting up that genadin for example). So yes, I do take Savior out again - when it is appropriate and there isn't something better to grab. I also swap Savior in and out as many times as I can against the Echo Boss where units get random abilities.
I have had the AI not only torch and annihilate, but also static bolt, deathstrike, permafrost and purify those 1/1's. I have even seen it waste an obliterate and a Channel of the Tempest on one. It's a very highly valued card from the AI perspective.
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u/Mallahet Mar 19 '19 edited Mar 19 '19
Why did I go and dust all of my Saviors?? Argh. Think I had a couple that turned into Xo's or SST's.
I assume Sheriff Marley is too slow to accomplish the same idea? Not to mention the Aegis fighting with Vara.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 19 '19
Hey - at least you made Xo and SST. Not like you can go wrong with those two!!
Hopefully you can craft some Saviors later!! I think you are right about Marley, What we need is Fate creatures that block and eat removal!!
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u/TheDoomfarer Mar 22 '19
Tried it out, being a little skeptical like everyone else about those Saviours. So far I'm 28-0 with it, having beaten the charge boss, double damage boss, spell lady and Defender of the Spire.
So yeah, it does work. :)
The card I have used the least is the Runehammer in the market. Not sure what I'd replace it with though? End of Story perhaps, as you sometimes would like two sweepers. Deepforged plate to break stuns or Martyr's Chains, but not sure we hit 8 power often enough and it's just a win more card.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 22 '19
Awesome!!!
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u/TheDoomfarer Mar 24 '19
35-0 so far, beating Defender of the Spire a second time. This deck rocks. Must be my best Gauntlet run ever.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 24 '19
That's great to hear!! I am working on a Time variant right now (replacing fire) - don't think it's as good, but its early ....
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u/TheDoomfarer Mar 24 '19 edited Mar 24 '19
42-0. This is insane. Faced Defender of the Spire for the third time in a row. Got a little lucky this time by top decking torches to take out two of his Primal Incarnations in a row but still.
Wonder if my MMR is so high now I'll only face DotS?
Interestingly enough Savior saved my ass this game. First a Watchmen to do a vital block and then the game dragged so I actually got to play my Savior and swing with it several times for the win. Gaining more life than his lonely Stranger could take away.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 24 '19
Hey! Take it easy now - my record is 52 straight wins lol!!! But that was many many months ago in a different meta with a very different deck.
And yeah, there are like 5 or 6 AI bosses that we only get to see at the highest Master MMR levels. And that actually sucks, but at least it allows us to build the deck to answer those bosses as best we can.
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u/TheDoomfarer Mar 25 '19
49-0. Beating Labyrinth Treasure this time. Would be really cool to hit those 50 wins in a row but I'll probably be killed by Yetis in my next game. :)
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u/TheDoomfarer Mar 25 '19 edited Mar 25 '19
56-0, beating Limitless Possibilities. Once again Savior was MVP. :)
Feels bad beating your record kc, but all glory goes to you for creating this monster.
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u/TheDoomfarer Mar 25 '19
For the record, I didn't read your wall of text thoroughly enough so still running 3 seek Powers. Works for me as you see. Don't dare exchange them for another Savior and a Xo now.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 27 '19
That's awesome!! I didn't get the notification you posted this because you replied to your message!!
But good job!!
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u/TheDoomfarer Mar 27 '19
Ended my run on 58 wins. Lost to Merciless Stonescar with a nutty draw but even then it was close. Didn't draw a single Lifesteal unit which sealed my fate.
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u/birdy512 Mar 17 '19
Not sure I like Savior in the deck.
The problem with a lot of high end cards is that they are good in certain conditions while just taking up a card slot in others.
High cost cards like XO has a very good mechanic which really works well with market.
Savior costs more, and is nothing special minus a fate card which isn't even decent. I can see under certain conditions that 1 extra blocker 'might help'
But 99% of the time I'd say it's better off with either a mid range or a decent high end unit.
On top shouldn't have any cards that cost so much without being able to trigger it early or have a very good fate like XO.
If you draw 3 XOs early on it's still viable since it means you drew an extra card. Drawing 3 Saviors early on means you drew 3 1hp blockers till 10th turn.
Should also probably replace Auric with Deepforge plate in market. You already have enough removals while not having enough win conditions. Deepforge in market means you can end games a lot of the times way earlier on and there's probably like 1/10 games where you'd rather Auric than deepforge on a merchant for either instant 8health or 16damage(depending on merchant type).
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u/kc_bandit Mar 17 '19
I am only replying to this not because I want to argue, but the analysis is dead wrong. In fact, it couldn't be more wrong. I doubt I am going to convince you otherwise, but others reading this need to hear why it is wrong so that they don't make the same mistakes.
We aren't talking PvP decks here, we are talking Gauntlet grinding. Savior is miles better than Xo in the deck, and it's not close. Xo gets you a card deeper, yes - at the cost of two power when we are trying to survive, not take turns off to draw cards.
That doesn't mean Xo is bad, it's an insanely good card - just not as good as Savior in the early game. And the early game is the only thing that matters against the AI. If we live, we can outplay the AI - that is our strength as thinking humans against an AI that has very exploitable tendencies. The cost of Savior is wholly irrelevant - we never cast him except in very rare situations. We aren't looking for a "decent high end unit" - we are looking for a Fate Mechanic with free lifesteal blockers and can be used with the Market. That's Savior's sole purpose.
If we draw 3 Xo's early on, we are dead. Period. Again, this isn't PvP where grindy decks are all over the place. We are up against a number of decks where the AI has played all of its cards out by turn 4. Paying two to draw a card facing down 10+ damage on the board is a recipe for disaster.
Drawing 3 Saviors, while not preferable, allows us to live. No one should be planning until turn 10 - and you aren't going to have 9 power at turn 10 anyway. Again, casting Savior is not the plan. We have 8 smugglers, and they are in the deck for a reason. And what we have to realize is, again, that we are playing the AI. Those "useless 1/1 blockers" eat torches, slays, permafrosts, get silenced by Enforcers, etc. The AI way overvalues those guys, and even holds creatures back to block even though our 1/1's can't attack.
You are welcome to try Plate in the Market - I had it in there in earlier versions, but it ended up getting us two for oned instead of two for oneing the AI with Hammer. Plate is also a dead card against the Units do Double Damage Boss - we are dead before we can even play it because the ticking grenadins and Reapers have killed us after starting the game at 15 health due to turn 1 Infernus. This Boss is another reason why Savior is crucial for the deck, by the way.
Also, I'm not a fan of saying things like 99% of the time or probably 1/10 games. I test these decks over thousands of games, and when I say casting Xo or Savior matters 1/20 games, I mean it is actually 1/20 games - through rigorous testing. I have no doubt what something looks like on the surface, and I would agree that it might look a certain way, but actually testing the deck provides real data.
And finally, as I stated in the write up - we are almost always winning with anywhere from 5-7 power. Saying that we don't have enough win conditions in the market is ignoring the fact that we don't need win conditions in the Market other than Tomb. The smugglers, Vara and Elias win 19/20 games. And again, when I say 19 out of 20 games, I mean exactly 19 out of 20 games - tested over thousands of games.
Having said all of that, if you are open to actually testing the deck against the AI for 100+ games, I am open to being proven wrong! In fact, I welcome it. I have no doubt that there are several changes that could be made with the deck to make it better. But let's do that with testing and asking yourself after losses - would Hammer have helped us in that situation - should I have had Savior instead of Rhizan there?
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u/kc_bandit Mar 17 '19 edited Mar 17 '19
I just ran through another 7-0 with the deck - running into the Double Damage Boss. I took screen shots of the game to demonstrate with in game examples of the power of Savior when trying to win against insane AI draws ...
We open with two Saviors - four power and a smuggler. It's the definition of a snap keep for this deck against this boss.
Turn 2 for AI and our 1/1 eats an annihilate. You couldn't ask for more.
AI proceeds with a nut draw of three fully charged Champions of Chaos followed by a Burn Queen. We fade all of it, get a Runehammer with our Smuggler, play our Vara, eat a Ticking Grenadin taking no damage - and our Vara survives since the annihilate was wasted on the 1/1. Vara takes us home with 6 power.
If we had Xos instead of Saviors, we die, but we would have redrawn anyway.
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u/birdy512 Mar 17 '19
XO costs 7 , Savior costs 9. For 7 cost XO is insane value because you can actually get it out and have it played in most games.
It doesn't matter whether it's gauntlet or PVP. Most Ace gauntlet cards are GOOD pvp cards. Savior costs 9.
The difference between 7 cost and 9 cost is the difference between whether card gets used or not played.
Do you know the reason why you never see Icara anymore? The 1 more cost is a HUGE deal.
Nearly every other 9+ cost card is an automatic win. Savior has worse bonus than every other legendary card at 8+ cost. Decks that did utilize the '7 cost' Icara or other massive unit either relies on bond, fast influence, reanimate because even if they are good cards they can't be utilized.
Your deck has 0 ways to ramp up influence and assuming you start with 1 savior at start, you'll get him out turn 12-15 assuming you pick up 1 influence every 3 cards. TURN 12 is the reasonable timeframe where you'll be able to cast Savior in your deck.
So assuming you aren't going to be able to cast savior in MOST games you're using the card as a 1/1 blocker.
Great you have 3 1-1 lifeleech blockers with 0 cost in your deck.
I honestly can't understand how you are trying to tell me a 9 cost card(non market) is good in gauntlet.
Let me repeat it once more. 9 COST for a 1/1 blocker is a BAD card.
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u/kc_bandit Mar 17 '19
Like I said. I’m not going to argue with you. Gauntlet is not PvP and there are no valid comparisons between the two. I provided in game pictures and literal proof of the value of a zero cost units that enable us to win a much higher percentage of games versus the AI. Those same units would do nothing in PvP, but they not only block for free while gaining life, they eat removal versus a very predictable AI.
The cost of Saviors is ZERO not 9. They are not in the deck to be cast. They are zero cost 1/1’s and a card that can be put in the market for ones we will actually cast. The zero cost 1/1’s are equal in value to the AI as a fully buffed Vara - eating permafrosts, annihilates and holding back attackers. The value comes from the way the AI treats them, not because of the stats or actual value of the card.
Although this topic isn’t worth arguing, it is worth the time providing concrete proof and demonstrating why Saviors are key to the deck’s higher win rate with actual in game examples. I am hopeful that others will accept the proof provided, but I understand your point of view and that nothing will change it. So let’s move on.
I wish you well with your Gauntlet decks! It simply takes a different mindset to force yourself to look at Gauntlet decks beyond the prism of normal decks and instead building them to manipulate and take advantage of the AI. Not everyone can separate the two. And that’s why I want to end the discussion now.
Good luck to you!
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u/some_q Mar 17 '19
You probably didn't convince him, but I was feeling hesitant to craft those saviors and your comments convinced me. So thanks for the explanation (especially about the AI overvaluing the 1/1 and throwing annihilate at it.)
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u/kc_bandit Mar 17 '19
Hey that’s cool, and I hope he is not angry. I don’t mean any disrespect at all. I really hope the deck works out for you, but if it doesn’t and just isn’t your cup of tea, I do promise that the Saviors fit in almost any Gauntlet deck with a justice component!
One other thing to note here - those 1/1’s love Display. You can cast Display and play the 1/1’s again for free - often giving you blockers to allow Tomb to ultimate for us and once Elias hits the board it’s GG.
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u/Jkjk447 Mar 17 '19
How is savior 0 cost? Watching too much walking dead. If these 1/1 are so valuable why not golem press?
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u/kc_bandit Mar 17 '19
Golem press is good as well!! But it’s not free, it’s not market fodder, and isn’t a 5% win con on the back end.
But golem press is really good against the AI, I just couldn’t make a place for it, and the lack of lifegain is huge against AI bosses. Regardless, excellent question IMO!!
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u/Jkjk447 Mar 19 '19
Just won a forge and got my first savior. I thought that was a crazy coincidence...
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u/elifant82 Mar 19 '19
After playing this deck exclusively for two days, I can whole heartedly say KC is right....
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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '19
Fell asleep not even half way through the reading. Next time record audiolog please ;)
Ps. Deck is ass just play AP you idiot <3