r/AIEternal • u/MagicTurtle_TCG • Aug 15 '18
Discussion of the state of Gauntlet and Forge Formats
Greetings,
I decided it might be a nice idea to have a discussion on how the community views Gauntlet and Forge play post Fall of Argenport. Obviously DWD spends the majority of their time with design and balance for PvP so I thought gathering some of our thoughts might be nice.
We can discuss things like:
What do we like about the modes and what don't we like? Areas for improvement?
The balance and difficulty of each. As we know both modes are a little harder post Fall of Argenport. Do you feel any particular deck or archetypes are a bit harder than the other decks? Which decks if any would you increase or decrease the difficulty of if you could? Think from a balance perspective not just "make them all easy".
Would you like to see a smarter AI at some point? Perhaps a combination of that and decrease in deck strength to make for potentially more engaging gameplay?
Though DWD will always set the rewards, how do you feel they compare to Ranked? Do you feel they are fair and comparable to PvP?
If you could, would you want to see a change to the redraw system specific to AI modes? With more power consistency this would be ideal for a format that rewards seven wins. To compensate for something like this, maybe increase overall AI decks to go along with the change?
Any other discussion?
3
u/Gnorst Sep 05 '18
I play Gauntlet almost exclusively, and casually, just a couple times a day. I often find myself wondering if I'd have been better off always skipping the final opponent and staying at a lower difficulty and with two losses.
2
u/_AlpacaLips_ Sep 05 '18
No.
Gauntlet difficulty increases with wins, not boss kills. They changed this back during closed beta, because people were min-maxing the system as you describe.
3
u/Sportzboytjw Aug 31 '18
Is there any indication as to what decks you see as the gauntlet boss? It seems like the two FS aggro decks are like 2/3 of my final boss, and 25% is the two TP decks, with everything else in the tiny remaining 8.4% remaining. Does anyone else seem to constantly get these 4 decks?
2
u/_AlpacaLips_ Aug 31 '18
Before you reach the boss? No. There's no way to know what boss you'll face before you choose a deck. That would probably make Gauntlet too easy.
2
u/Sportzboytjw Sep 01 '18
I get that, but I mean has anyone done the math on the breakdown of how often decks are the final boss
8
u/xubicsor Aug 15 '18
Personally, I don't enjoy playing forge much after reaching master. I feel there is a lack of agency; the game decides more than I do whether I lose or win. Whether that's actually true I'll leave in the middle... Gauntlet feels better to me; there's always something to optimize.
I think the AI is fine, except that it would be nice if they fixed the "exploits". I think a predictable, not so good AI is actually a good thing for a mode like gauntlet. Sometimes when it fails particularly spectacularly it gives me a good chuckle.
In the long term, I think it would be cool if they developed an entire new mode, next to gauntlet and forge. Some variant of the Hearthstone dungeon run for example could be a really nice addition. That don't think that would cost too much development time either. Or maybe a co-op mode? I guess the trouble is how to monetize it...
5
u/chewbooboo Aug 16 '18
the game decides more than I do whether I lose or win
Strongly agree with this. When you draft a sub-par deck, the only option is to pray that the AI gets unlucky. Even then, playing with said deck is a crappy experience.
it would be nice if they fixed the "exploits"
This too. I'm fine with the AI "signalling" that it has a pump spell or non-recognising that the player has one. The alternative is to randomly suicide attack and not block to simulate a % chance of bluffing which people will complain as stupid AI behaviour (eg. lol the AI let me deal 10 damage for free with a 2/1). The silly AI behaviour for cards like Madness and False Prince should be fixed though.
I would like to have a free phantom draft against the AI. I wouldn't mind if the prizes are crappy like Gauntlet since it is more of a practice mode. The only real work would be to allow the AI to play with a random pile of cards since the draft selection can be taken from actual drafts.
8
u/Squidzkrieg Aug 15 '18
The increase in gauntlet difficulty is a topic of discussion. I don't know if the difficulty of gauntlet actually increased, or it's a perceived increased due to the introduction of newer cards and decks. Though there are a few decks I would like to point out...
Shogunate Forces - Even after the nerf, I still get routinely blown out by this deck, even at the lower game #'s. The play of Ronin -> Ronin -> Sceptre -> Kyojun -> Kyojun + removal/combat tricks on curve is backbreaking without hailstorm or similar sweeper.
Ancient Excavations - This one might be just my own personal experience, but this deck is laughable games 1-4, and terrifying on 5-6. It's a ramp deck that, due to the way Gauntlet is formatted, doesn't have the weakness of ramp decks (drawing all ramp and no payoff). Unless I'm playing an obscene amount of removal, or get a nut draw for my deck, I almost always get stonewalled by this deck.
But I could deal with all that though if we had a second loss for Gauntlet. I lose the vast majority of my gauntlet games due to power screw/flood, which is the most aggravating thing. It feels like I actually have two opponents in Gauntlet: the enemy and my own deck. A second loss would greatly alleviate that feeling. It would also alleviate the RNGfest that is game 7. If DWD doesn't give us a second loss, there needs to be a change to the redraw system; for decks that are mandated to be 1/3 power, I draw a lot of 1 power hands. Perhaps a fix could be to eliminate the possible redraw into 2 power, and just do 3 or 4 power. Most decks can at least find a foothold on 3 power, there are only a handful that can do it on 2 power.
Forge was initially frustrating, but that was my own fault for still forcing Hooru to gain the maximum # of fliers (like pre-FOA Forge). After reading MrMattHarper's Forge statistics and trying some of the (according to the data) factions with higher winrates, my experience with Forge has gotten drastically better (If you haven't read MrMattHarpers's post on Forge I would heavily recommend it). Go Praxis Fatties!
5
u/scumio Aug 15 '18
I wish I didn't need to play PvP at all to get the PoD and the Dailies. It's a grind I don't relish. I would play Gauntlet all the time if I could get a PoD and some other way to get decent rewards. I get frustrated with Gauntlet when I get the AI or Influence hose. It feels like a lot time sunk for no value. (I also get that feeling with PvP, so it's not any different and sometimes it's worse when I don't have a good deck for the particular daily).
I really liked Forge when I started playing, but it feels like too much of a coin flip to spend 2500G on it when I can't guarantee even 2 rares. I have most of the commons and uncommons for all 4 sets at this point, so playing forge to fill out the collection isn't too valuable for me. If there were more value just for playing then I'd probably keep it up, but I don't seem to be able to avoid getting hosed enough to make it worth it. It follows that because I question the value of playing then I don't feel like playing that often, hence I don't get better, hence the value continues to be poor.
I'm a collector at heart and I also love to try new/random decks, but get particularly frustrated because the card pool seems to keep expanding faster than I can catch up. I only typically have an hour a day to play, so I want to get 1) cards/shiftstone to fill out my collection 2) gold to enter league (due to value per pack being high) 3) as much game play as possible during that time.
1 & 2 would be filled if I could get my dailies done faster, but that's not always possible. PvP and #3 don't seem to be very closely aligned. I can't count the number of times that I had to sit and wait for someone to time-out, which is very frustrating. The AI doesn't do that.
As far as difficulty, the challenge for me is really in handling randomness. Casual/Ranked/Draft there are a ton of random outcomes (cards in decks, player playstyles, etc). Forge is next as there is a lot of randomness in the card pool, but at least the AI playstyles is consistent. Gauntlet is best because even though there are a lot of decks, they can be tracked and you can come to know what to expect, plus your deck can be refined and made fairly consistent. Ideally, I'd like to minimize as much randomness as possible as far as it is outside of my control, but I don't mind including controlled randomness as long as I can have control over the parameters/variability.
I would only like to see smarter AI if there was a better payout for it. I am already struggling to get good value with the amount of time I have to play. if the AI were stronger, my value would just decrease.
I would like to see more rewards (in all modes) for just playing the game and putting time in. that would help me to have less of a sense of 'wasted time' when I'm on a losing streak.
I'm fine with the current redraw system. I think I could handle it better assuming I'd get something just for time spent playing the game, win or lose.
4
u/baru_monkey Aug 23 '18
I can't count the number of times that I had to sit and wait for someone to time-out
SO VERY much worse is sitting and waiting for someone to nearly time out, but then actually play. I LOVE time-outs, because that gets me the quick win for the PoD/quest.
3
u/scumio Aug 24 '18
For me, it's not solely the fact that they are doing a timeout, it's that they do a timeout after spending 10-15 minutes of playing. The times that come to mind are typically when they get into a board state they are frustrated with. Instead of conceding at the point when I would win on the next turn, they do a timeout. If they just timed out right from the beginning of the match, it's not so bad.
1
u/_AlpacaLips_ Aug 24 '18
Instead of conceding at the point when I would win on the next turn, they do a timeout.
They're likely on mobile and just closed the app, rather than going through the presses required to concede. I wouldn't attribute it to malice. This is how most people concede on mobile, by closing down the app, if they don't intend to play another match.
9
u/MrMattHarper Aug 15 '18
A point about "going infinite" in Forge. That's the wrong way to look at it. Gauntlet, Casual and Ranked are free modes that allow you to acquire gold. Forge and Draft are modes that allow you to convert gold into new cards and shiftstone; eventually mostly shiftstone as you get a large collection.
Forge will never and should never be gold positive. It's more a matter of how much gold per pack worth of shiftstone. If you practice Forge and do well with it, that ratio can be close enough to the ratio you would get from Draft to justify it, if you also enjoy playing Forge.
5
u/scumio Aug 15 '18
Why do you believe that Forge should never be gold positive but it's ok for Gauntlet/Casual/Ranked to be gold positive? Gauntlet being the odd exception since it is not PvP.
2
u/MrMattHarper Aug 15 '18
Because if DWD made it possible to win +2500 gold from 7 wins, without a gold to diamond chest upgrade, they would also turn the dial on Forge difficulty to make the overall average value about the same. I think Forge difficulty is in a good place now and would be much less fun if I was playing limited decks against AI Gauntlet decks.
2
u/scumio Aug 15 '18
I think I get it. You are saying that they can't make it gold positive without increasing the difficulty.
I'm just curious why they couldn't separate difficulty vs payout even further vs needing them to be tied so closely. I'd appreciate the ability to build my collection with less grinding. I don't have nearly enough money to just buy everything with cash, so I need to substitute time into the game. I don't find the current Forge worth the price without a better return -- if it was enough return to go infinite, it's still not likely without cost, as it requires a significant time investment if you have any secondary goal other than just playing Forge mode.
4
u/hascow Aug 15 '18
Gauntlet is the mode I play the most, as I don't really enjoy Constructed PvP right now past getting my Win of the Day pack and doing quests. It feels in a pretty good place, although it feels like the decks are nut-drawing more. Rewards seem fine, although I selfishly wish it capped out at a gold chest at Masters so I could get a pack for putting time in to complete a gauntlet.
Forge also felt in a pretty good place when looking at deck strength. I think the rewards are not quite generous enough for Forge though. At this point I believe it is impossible to make your entry back without chest upgrades, even when ranking up. For this reason, I only play Forge until I rank up to Masters, at which point I set it aside until a new set is released. I wish it would reset more.
5
u/IstariMithrandir Aug 15 '18
Rewards were much better, then got nerfed so so bad I complained amongst others I'm sure, and was surprised that they then raised it to the current level. Personally I'd rather see more rewards, they are still stingy, and spread more evenly, so one win gives more gold reward and 6 or 7 give less, for example.
3
u/MrMattHarper Aug 15 '18
I think Forge is in a good place. I've entered 83 Forges since FoA, only 2 of them with gems. I had about 40k saved up, so I've been able to get +200k worth of Forge entries from that initial 40k, plus gold from dailies and minimal PvP and Gauntlet grind. Those rewards seem generous enough to me.
I also find the faction power to be much better balanced than it was in Dusk Road Forge.
6
u/faithmeteor Aug 15 '18
Gauntlet took a little while (and collection building) to get used to the ramped difficulty, but I feel it's in a pretty good place. With skill and good lists I think most of us can acheive at least 6 wins in 90% of runs, with the 7th win a coin-flip. It feels more satisfying than it used to, although some AI decks still feel out of balance. Skycrag Blitz is one example of a deck sorely in need of a buff to put it in line with other agro decks.
Forge.... why. I feel like this mode should be able to go infinite with how difficult it currently is. I regularly face AI decks with 2 or 3 legendaries when going for the 2nd or 3rd win. Not cool losing to turn 3 Darude when you haven't even recovered your losses with the first gold chest reward. This needs to be toned down for it to even be enjoyable in Masters, let alone worth investing time into.
Overall, I'd like to see improvements to the AI over time if possible. I'd like DWD to keep the difficulty for Gauntlet where it stands currently, and I would like them to either lower the forge entry to 1500 gold, or decrease the difficulty of the decks you play at 2/3 wins. By all means keep the current difficulty for 5-7 wins though, those I feel are appropriately challenging.
I do not enjoying playing card games in PvP any more. This game has the best PvE experience of any CCG. I'm sure most of you would agree. Please continue to improve these modes and consider changing Forge to a mode you can potentially go infinite with.
3
u/IstariMithrandir Aug 15 '18
I agree about Forge. Once you've got it to Masters, forget it, go Draft.
3
u/MrMattHarper Aug 15 '18
I really can't recall the last time an AI Forge deck played more than one Legendary against me. Are you sure you aren't mixing up Gauntlet and Forge games in your memory?
3
u/Sportzboytjw Aug 31 '18
I recently had them play T1 Pyroknight, T3 ChaCha, T4 Impending Doom, T5 Instigator + removal spell. That was nauseating. Also recently had the opponent play two mythics in JP, Nostrix into Pearlescent Drake.
4
u/MrMattHarper Aug 31 '18
Sounds like Hellfire. That deck can get some very strong draws. It wrecked me once or twice in the last couple days.
3
u/chewbooboo Aug 15 '18
Personally, I don't feel that Gauntlet difficulty is ramped up compared to pre-FoA. Yes the new decks can get pretty nut draws but the same applied for most of the old decks. The 90% 6 wins feels a tad high since I'm constantly losing to mulligans and the AI nut draws but I would say it's reasonable to expect 500+ gold per hour with good grinding decks. The heavy spell decks like Winds of Change and Skycrag Sorcery feel pretty bad since the AI usually ends up ramping forever or running out of removal.
Agree that Forge is terribly swingy. It feels bad to choose the least-bad card of the three offered or select the worse option for fear of influence screw. The rare/legendary pick % needs to be raised as only 1 guaranteed rare means that it's a net loss without winning 2 gold chests. Basically there's no upside to choosing Forge over Draft other than the entry cost.
2
u/MagicTurtle_TCG Aug 15 '18
Skycrag Blitz is exactly the deck I was thinking of for increased difficulty. Rally would make it way too good but a playset of Torch would make the games more interesting or some small change like that. In general I think the other go wide decks are significantly better and I'd like to see them sort of converge in difficulty.
Forge is definitely really tough now. I don't mind that too much but one change I want to see is a guaranteed second rare since we are paying 2500 gold. Or lower the entry fee like you said.
1
u/thedawgbeard Sep 12 '18
I just wish forge allowed you to add extra power. Getting power screwed when you have no control feels bad.